So...why John left Jane? - Predestination (2015) Discussion

[–] chrisa289 9 years ago

He is her..

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[–] tinn-25459 9 years ago

So what?He knew that.Thats why he fell in love with her in first place.

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[–] chrisa289 9 years ago

He had to, it was predetermined, that's how John (Jane) was able to join the agency and continue the loop. That is also when John (Ethan) said "things are happening in the correct order".

Think about it this way, If he did not leave her (Jane) then John (Jane) would have never showed up at the bar... among many other things.

This is the beauty of this, and other time travel movies, everything is interconnected.

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[–] tinn-25459 9 years ago

I still dont get it.
Barkeeper is obsessed with frizzle bomber.John does not care a bit.So why would he even care if barkeeper is born or not OR fizzle bomber is stopped or not.
Barkeeper was being selfish that he wants john to leave jane so that john joins the organsization,burn himself and barkeeper is born.But how john got convinced?What john had to gain out of all this?He has found his sole mate and can live happily with her..

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[–] FrodoPotter 9 years ago

Barkeeper explains to him that he is also him (and her). They are all one and the same person. And if John doesn't leave Jane there to join the agency the loop will be broken and they will all never exist.

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[–] tinn-25459 9 years ago

How Broken loop mean they will all never exist?It just means that loop will be broken.Only the agency(also the barkeep) cares about loop.John does not care a bit so why he left her.

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[–] compact_disc_rack 9 years ago

That's the problem with these predestination paradox stories. At the end of the day they make no sense. One wonders why the guy would even care about existing when the whole life was a big misery.

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[–] SamFZ 9 years ago

The other events can't happen without the other. Example: If John never would've left Jane, Jane wouldn't be heartbroken in the first place. Jane would've been a happy woman thus everything bad that happened to her that turned her to John would've never happened thus making John non-existent. If John never existed, Jane wouldn't have met him. They never had sex, so she wouldn't be pregnant. She impregnated herself (in the loop), therefore if that didn't happen, she/he would've ceased to exist

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[–] stvd111 9 years ago

Correct, and also incorrect. Presumably the first baby Jane had to come from some where that was not his/her adult self.

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[–] mcp-69798 9 years ago

Incorrect. There is not a "first" baby Jane with different parents.

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[–] niloo_xp 8 years ago

I agree, Remember the question John asked John in the bar? "Which came first? the Chicken or the Egg?"

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[–] kerrielou 8 years ago

I agree this is the only decision John\John\Barkeep made that is questionable. I don't think the argument that he did it so that Jane would exist is strong enough. Right there and then Jane did exist and so did John. They could have continued on together. I think there is too much stock put on people worrying about not existing in alternate timelines. They are in the moment they are in and in that moment Jane and John could have been very happy and raised their baby together. That baby still would have been a separate entity even if genetically the same person.

If you want to talk about doing things so you would still exist then I don't think you can have scenes of the same person simultaneously existing in multiple forms. Obviously under the alternate laws of physics of this film Jane, John, Barkeep, and even embryo Jane all existed simultaneously. I think if you suspend belief long enough to accept that, it is hard to argue that any of them had to do something to make sure they were born in the first place or would start physically fading out and disappearing like in Back to the Future. Those laws obviously did not apply in this film so trying to invoke them as the reason John left Jane doesn't work for me.

I think every other plot point in the film is well done and makes sense. I can understand the motivations of every character or every instance of the same character in every decision except this one.

I simply do not believe that John would have left Jane at that moment knowing what he did. At that point being part of some secret organization just didn't seem like it would have been enough to motivate him to leave her. He'd let go of all that and encountering her, knowing the pain she was in and would be in, I just can't believe he would abandon her for some dream to be part of "something." Not at that stage. He was too bitter and too disillusioned to want to be in the "in" again with some super secret organization that "needed" him. That would have worked on Jane. Not on the John we meet at the bar. He's was over it.

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[–] kerrielou 8 years ago

The barkeep says "and I hope you now know who I am." Who does the barkeep think he is and who does he think John is supposed to know who he is? The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that the barkeep knows that he is also Jane\John, but that he also believes he is the only one who can stop the fizzle bomber and that if John does not leave Jane to become him the fizzle bomber can never be stopped. The only reason I can think of that John would ever leave Jane is that he truly believes he is literally the only person who can prevent what the fizzle bomber does. I still have to wonder if John is supposed to know that he becomes the Barkeep. If he does then I can conceive that he thinks if he doesn't leave Jane and become the Barkeep the bomber will never be stopped. If John doesn't understand he becomes the Barkeep then does he think he will become the bomber if he doesn't join this super secret organization?

John is making this very great sacrifice that hurts Jane and himself based on something, but I am still perplexed as to what that is. How could John possibly know that he will be the Barkeep? I know the Barkeep knows, but how does John know? I know he has to or the Barkeep would not have stated "and I hope you now know who I am."

We also know the barkeep does not know that he becomes the fizzle bomber at that point. We know the fizzle bomber knows who Jane\John is and loves them so much they push the machine toward them so they can get medical help and get the Barkeep's face, but we don't know very much about what "agent" John knew after he left Jane. There is a big gaping hole there where John has left Jane for questionable reasons, pursued the Barkeep turned bomber, and then been simultaneously burned and saved by said bomber.

John is being seen smiling somewhat smugly after leaving Jane and joining the organization. What is John smiling about exactly? We know the Barkeep does not intend to become the bomber so what is it that John finds so pleasurable in pursuing him after leaving the one person that he might have been happy with?

Again, leaving Jane is pretty much the only plot hole in a movie about time travel which must be some kind of *beep* record. The concept of time travel is just riddled with holes and everyone knows that. So it's a pretty great feat that this film was somehow able to pull it off with really only one. I could stomach every impossibility except this one moment where a character who had made the natural decision at every point previous and after, somehow decided to hurt the person they most love with almost zero motive. I am going to give it a pass, because otherwise I think the movie was incredibly well done, especially for a time travel movie, but yeah. That is definitely a moment that didn't quite jive. The problem is most time travel movies have at least 100 of those moments. This movie only had one. That's quite a feat.

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[–] tinn-25459 8 years ago

Good analysis.Glad I was not the only one.I still hope that we are not missing something because it was such a big event in the movie.I wonder how filmmakers could screw it.

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[–] Z-Dizzle 8 years ago

I don't think it's a plot hole. John says he doesn't want to leave Jane, but the Barkeep says he has to. John was "predestined" to leave Jane; he had no other choice, and John realized the gravity of the situation. He loved her (essentially himself) so much that he was willing to sacrifice the relationship so that they could continue to exist. It was because of love that he did it. Plus, the whole film is centered on the idea of a predestination paradox: everything that happens must happen and can only happen that way. Even if John made the decision to stay with Jane, something would happen to perpetuate the timeline and continue the loop, possibly some worse tragedy. It's the depressing reality of the situation they are in. You may find this website helpful. I think it does a good job explaining the film.

http://www.astronomytrek.com/predestination-2014-explained/

"Game over, man! Game over!"

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[–] KutWrite (1317) 5 years ago

The only problem I see with that is that even if John or Barkeep don't know he becomes the Fizzle Bomber, the AGENCY must know that Fizzle must NOT be stopped for the reasons he gives at the laundromat.

Therefore, John and Jane staying together should be sanctioned by the Agency and would continue on peacefully, except for Fizzie blowing up a few people who NEEDED blowing up (according to the movie's morality, not mine).

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[–] takuandaichi 8 years ago

I just watched it for the second time, here's your answer :

John himself explain that to the "bartender" a bit sooner, he doesnt believe in love, he believe peoples need a purpose.
Jane offers "Love"
Bartender (or "future him") offers a Purpose.

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[–] konam 8 years ago

Thats what I understood too. Being an agent would add purpose to his life, which he considered more important than love.

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- He moves his lips when he reads. What does that tell you about him?

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[–] GreyHunter 8 years ago

The movie actually makes it very simple. It's ironic that a movie that wants to raise big questions about fate and free-will and time-travel and ethics actually reduces the central dilemma to a single sentence (I'm not going to rewatch to get the exact sentence, but you'll know the one I'm talking about here): An agent who exceeds the parameters of the mission is terminated, i.e. killed.

Forget the replies about love and purpose and so on. Had John stayed with Jane, had future John encouraged past John to stay with Jane rather than telling past John he had a purpose -- which future John knew would convince past John to leave Jane because having a purpose has been his/her obsession his/her entire life -- the agency would have killed anyone involved in the time travel. They obviously don't play around on that issue. That's the only explanation needed. By staying, John would have effectively been committing suicide and achieving nothing while still leaving Jane alone and confused. There's a reason the movie emphasized that point more than once. It was important that the audience know the exact consequences to trying to mess up causality and the chain of events. Yes, future John got away with it, thanks to his boss looking the other way, but he had no way of knowing that would happen beforehand.

Kind of neat how all these Big Questions can be wrapped up so tidily, no?

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[–] ichelwrite 8 years ago

Did anyone else think that the intense narcissism of that relationship aside, it would've been too complicated to continue once Jane gave birth to herself destroying her female organs and having to start living life as a man? After which point she would have been in a homosexual relationship with her doppelganger in the 1960s which would have been entirely too much to deal with and couldn't have been avoided at this point because she was already pregnant and the Agent/Barkeep was not going to disobey orders and go back again to stop the events?

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[–] carl_johnson-1 8 years ago

Even Fizzle seems to be suggesting that he and Barkeep hook up. "We could have a future together." But Barkeep lives with Alice for a while, before deciding to leave her for a shot at, um, Barkeep.

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[–] KutWrite (1317) 5 years ago

I'm glad you said that. I was rootin' for Alice.

Freya was hot!

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