MovieChat Forums > Nymphomaniac: Vol. II (2014) Discussion > What rang the most false

What rang the most false

posted 10 years ago by deadbunny28
18 replies | jump to latest

For how much Joe fronted strength in the face of how everyone else is a hypocrite, she continues to lie to herself and never admits her own hypocrisy...The Mirror chapter was a chance where it could have delved deep and actually exposed her psyche, but instead she just lashes out "oh I'm not like any of you," what a load of b.s. It is shown all throughout the movie her suppression of feelings, such as with Jerome and the young girl P especially, but when it came down to admitting that she suppresses these feelings and instead of admitting the shame she feels in her actions of trying to fill her emptiness with her actions, she gives a facade of how proud she is and acts as if those kinds of emotions are fake and phony...

Did this make the movie ring so hollow and phony for the rest of you?

[–] patrick_bateman_90029 10 years ago

That's because "The Mirror" was the most heavily edited chapter in the producer's cut.

[–] jonesv725 10 years ago

Agreed. 'The Mirror' chapter was supposed to be about an hour, but the version here is-what?- 20 minutes or so? There is a lot of character development when you cut 40-45 min of a film. I think I also read somewhere that the chapter w her fathers death had a chunk cut that much more familial history stuff. I'll be watching the directors cut for those elements. The sex bits... Who cares. I can watch porn.

[–] patrick_bateman_90029 10 years ago

I think it was about 10 minutes max. I know on the Blu-Ray, the entirety of it fit onto one chapter whereas all the others took a minimum of two and a max of five.

[–] deadbunny28 10 years ago

Thanks for that info, that's pretty interesting...is there a long version of that scene on youtube or some other video site or would I have to wait until blu-ray comes out?...I might be interested in seeing what all was cut out

[–] patrick_bateman_90029 10 years ago

The Director's Cut is released on DVD/Blu-Ray in late November and there is A LOT in "The Mirror" that was removed:

- a second explanation involving the cut of diamonds.
- a closer look at Joe's damaged genitals when she masturbates
- the aforementioned self-performed abortion, sandwiched by a visit to a doctor and psychologist who won't sign off on the abortion and a very lengthy discussion between Joe and Seligman on the political correctness of abortion and the numerous tools used to perform it.
- the first meeting at the sex addicts anonymous meeting is longer, featuring one woman who has an extended orgy on a bed of coals.
- Joe's verbal abuse towards the therapist and other women is extended too.

[–] corpus_callosum 10 years ago

this kind of sidesteps your more specific question, but i'm just gonna address the thread title.

i found things in her speech to just scream out "this script was written by a man!".

the way she kept on referring to her vagina as *beep* most women hate that word. yes i know there are some women who like to use it.

and lines such as "fill all my holes", etc.

i also realize there are many women who enjoy anal sex.... but they generally would not say such phrases like that. but i don't feel like breaking it down into the several reasons why.

just 2 small examples. but the whole movie felt kind of forced, and very artificial. i just felt like i was reading a guys diary where he theorizes on what he thinks makes women tick, while for the most part completely failing.

it seemed quite juvenile.

[–] jonesv725 10 years ago

True, but remember. Joe is telling a story- to a man. At certain instances (ie when Joe is imagined as a schoolgirl) I'm sure Seiligman's ideas of sexuality are infused into the narrative. He may not be experienced, but he is familiar with certain sexual practices and proclivities.

[–] TheHungryAndAngryShow 10 years ago

Joe even mentions near the end of the movie her "masculinity" in her sexuality. She knows she acts like a man sometimes, or has that aspect of her personality. I know a lot of girls into a lot of sexual things, and some of them use those words and phrases, especially with certain guys. Plus it is becoming the norm, all the 18 year olds now have grown up on porn, some having started as young as 4 or 5. Wait 20 years, then tell me women don't speak like this.

[–] corpus_callosum 10 years ago

if she was near the age of 18, it would have sounded a lot more believable, because what you are saying is very true. girls would have heard such talk, and regardless of the origins, certain phrasing tends to trickle down to everyone after a time.

but even in such a porn-centric world, i just don't think most women (who were not porn actresses having rehearsed lines written by men) like summing up their parts as "all my holes", and to mention them as a catch-all collection of places to be plugged. women generally have a little more artful choice of words, and more a sense of the uniqueness of experience that each part of their body gives them. it would have been much more believable to me as something that's even more explicit such as "i want you in my ____, my _____ and my _____". even if one or more of those words were something more crude, such as *beep*
it just sounded too dismissive of her perspective, like it was a conquest checklist. generally women are a little more verbose, and men boil things down to as few words as possible

i don't find a powerful overriding sexual desire/drive, or sexual openness hard to believe at all. its just the wording.

also making a math equation out of how many pumps in her pussy versus in her ass.
and also the fact that such a poor performance of the man wouldn't be mentioned as a disappointment to her. 8)

anyways, i said i didn't feel like getting into specifics, and then i went there. 8)

[–] TheHungryAndAngryShow 10 years ago

I think it very much depends on the kind of people you talk to and if you are viewing Joe as "average/normal" or "special". Joe is not a regular girl or woman, on many levels. I have run across girls like her, some overly sexual, some exceedingly like men. Some use those words to shock, some integrate them into their speech and don't even notice anymore. Of course you are right it was written by a man, but I think he was trying to portray someone who did not fit in, in many ways, sexuality was just one aspect of it. Granted, Lars is far from my favorite writer, I think his work is generally severely flawed, I would even say I have hated most of his movies, especially his writing. To me, the endings of his movies are always his weakest points, I can excuse the character development flaws, though I would not say her overt male sounding sexuality was a flaw as much as a choice.

[–] corpus_callosum 10 years ago

good comments.

[–] haikela 10 years ago

She is a nymphomaniac and she abhors political correctness. She is not like most women. She does not look at sex as some romantic subject but as something raw and dirty, so it is not surprising that her language is more vulgar. She is not interested in getting to know her sexual partners. She is not interested in conversations with them, much less in being verbose/delicate with them. There's a math equation of Jerome's pumping because Joe sees sex as just numbers (and perhaps as a signature to make it clear to the audience that P's lover and Shia are the same Jerome since the actor was changed).

[–] corpus_callosum 9 years ago

people are reading a lot more into what i said, taking away wrong conclusions about what's going on in my head.

"not romantic"
not hard for me to believe at all

"raw and dirty"
not hard for me to believe at all

"vulgar"
not hard for me to believe at all,
in fact i might go as far as to say almost half the women
i run into are showy and proud of their "vulgarity" and
ability to "talk like one of the guys"

"not interested in conversation"
not hard for me to believe at all, i find MOST people that way

"not delicate"
not hard for me to believe at all, same as vulgar, EXTREMELY common

now the numbers thing DOES ring completely false to me.
IF SHE WAS A GUY IT WOULD ring completely false to me ALSO!
so its not a gender stereotype, its a HUMAN stereotype.
i never heard *** ANYone *** talk about sex in these terms.
where there is a magical vagina/anus pump mathematical ratio.

she could be one of these autistic people that feel a compulsion to
touch and count every post of a fence, or such, but that's out of
the realm of normalcy for ANYone. and i didn't feel they were
trying to go that route at all.

if you want to talk about number of partners, then sure....
not hard for me to believe at all

but it wasn't about number of partners. or at least anything *I*
said didn't touch on anything about doubting that she wanted to
have sex with a lot of guys.
BELIEVE ME, i've known a TON of girls where that seemed to be
the overriding priority in their life above almost all other things!

my ONLY point in sharing my perspective on what rang false about the movie (TO ME), is the specific details of the dialog.

to me it SCREAMS out that a man wrote this.
i'm not offended if this dialog sounds like genuine words of a woman to you.
but nobody should be offended that it sounds like a guy to me.

btw, i would LOVE to see this same concept made by a female script writer.

[–] piccochan 9 years ago

but even in such a porn-centric world, i just don't think most women (who were not porn actresses having rehearsed lines written by men) like summing up their parts as "all my holes"

The use of this phrase is quite obviously metaphorical. Especially since she only used it with Jerome, the one person she came closest to actually loving.

I also think its a bit silly to say "most women only say this or that". As one other commenter noted, Joe self defines as "rebellious", and would feel no shame in attributing a taboo word to herself. She seems to adopt the most sexually aggressive word to display her philosophical and societal viewpoints.

[–] corpus_callosum 9 years ago

i can see why people bristle at stereotypes, but its a fact this was written by a man, and his writing was influenced by that fact. same as your gender influencing what you say, and i'm sure you wouldn't argue that my gender influences what i say.

also that there are certain things common to men that are not common to women and vice versa. for example, some guys have no interest in sex. but i think most people would argue if you said that was anywhere near a common trait of men.

its just simple statistics and averages.
believe me, i'm well aware that not all people are alike or match what is the most common thoughts/feelings/perspectives that people ascribe to them.

i've met plenty of girls who have used all the same sexual phrases and jokes that guys do. and many of their words "ring false" to me also. in that i don't think they necessarily feel the same attitudes that men do when they say them, and GENERALLY DON'T say them. people in general are programmed by their environment and say all kinds of things that don't accurately match what they think. but if its a common thing they hear, it will be said also.
but whatever you think Joe represents/is/wants, etc, i don't have any argument against it. i don't at all doubt a woman would actually be/think that way. its just details, such as choice of words that break the "suspension of disbelief".

sorry i don't see anything metaphorical about "fill all my holes". the fact that you do shows an interesting difference in perspective. i really don't think she was expecting or commanding or requesting any of her conquests to fill a hole in her heart, etc. also i don't find the phrase to be "taboo" or "sexually aggressive". it just "rang false", which is why i replied to that subject.

its not at all hard for me to imagine a woman breaking stereotypes. many, in fact, go out of their way to do so. and its a GREAT thing when its genuine. i LOVE seeing people of all different types going against what the general stereotype is.

[–] drgnndblls88 9 years ago

yes, the whole thing felt very didactic. the character Joe felt very "made up" to me, almost a caricature.

[–] DwarvesAreVeryUpsetting 10 years ago

when it came down to admitting that she suppresses these feelings and instead of admitting the shame she feels in her actions of trying to fill her emptiness with her actions, she gives a facade of how proud she is and acts as if those kinds of emotions are fake and phony...

I thought the Mirror chapter was great. Joe expresses shame and sadness at her deadened soul constantly throughout the film............ this was the first time we see her really taking a stand for her desires. Admitting that she actually LOVES her *beep* Remember, Joe was ultimately an addict out of lust, not need.

[–] skay_baltimore 10 years ago

The thing that rang the most false was her insistence that only 5% of pedophiles act on their impulses. Given the intense nature of drives and impulses, that's ridiculously low and unrealistic as far as I'm concerned.

Love isn't what you say or how you feel, it's what you do. (The Last Kiss)