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Seligman's motive - A theory for those enraged by the ending [SPOILERS]

posted 10 years ago by amandak_24
19 replies | jump to latest

Lars may be notorious for certain cinematic devices, but abrupt and out-of-place endings isn't typically one of them. So, the question remains for many: Why did Seligman, the cornerstone of morality throughout the film, do a complete one-eighty in the last minute or so of the film?

Let's go back to one of Joe's last chapters and stories: The interrogation of the pedophile while she was "debt collecting."

Seligman reacted very strongly and very negatively towards this story in particular. While this reaction seems obvious at first, take a step back and review it in the context of the entire epic. Seligman has remained calm and open-minded through talk of sexual assault, dangerous sexual competitions, and morally questionable liaisons of every variety and severity. So why is he suddenly so opinionated, and judgmental? Why this particular taboo?

If you watch his face as Joe justifies her actions towards the pedophile once she's finished interrogating him, it seems as though something very subtle changes in him. It's the only point in the movie where he feels almost defensive, even though he has stated that he is an asexual virgin. So what is it, exactly, that makes him react all of a sudden, after everything else he's already heard?

"This is a man who had succeeded in repressing his own desire, who had never before given into it... right up until I forced it out. He had lived a life full of denial and had never hurt a soul. I think that's laudable." ... "Sexuality is the strongest force in human beings. To be born with a forbidden sexuality must be agonizing. The pedophile who manages to get through life with the shame of his desire, while never acting on it, deserves a bloody medal."

It seems that, while Seligman was likely telling the truth about having been a virgin, he was using asexuality as a way to cope with an inner demon. Not pedophilia, necessarily, but some sort of violent, sexual urge of a forbidden nature that he struggled to suppress. Joe unwittingly "forced it out of him," by giving him an opinion that contradicted with his own self-loathing; that a man "who manages to get through life with the shame of his desire, while never acting on it" is not a detestable person, but someone of strong will.

In short (TL;DR) - it seems as if Seligman was not truly asexual, but carried some secret with him which he paralleled with the pedophile in Joe's story. Subsequently, it seems he let down the guard that he held so firmly in place his entire life, after hearing Joe rationalize and sympathize with that man, and finally caved in to his desires.

Now, does any of that justify what Seligman did? Of course not. I offer this take on the film's ending purely from my observation of that scene and the context, as possible pacification for those who were enraged by an ending that appeared to come from nowhere. It wasn't out of nowhere- just out of a very subtle and brilliantly executed parallel between Joe's story and Seligman's life.

[–] lamont-hard 10 years ago

Great thread, but, there are several other things mentioned in the film we can latch onto to better understand his actions as well. Yours is good one.

I have stated as weird as the scene looked I feel he wanted sex with her as a coming together type of thing [bonding] as they have just discovered each other. He has zero experience with women, his going about asking her in a romantic manner is not on his radar. We also need to keep in mind he feels she at times may be lying or stretching the truth. Remember the boyfriend thing in the park, he challenge her about was she being honest. She answered him to some equivalent to better understand me just go with believing it's true. So he might not have believed her when she says she wanted to change. [no more sex]

[–] willcrook 10 years ago

it's a good theory
mine is more simple:
he's a creep with no social abilities just agreeing with literally everything she says in order to attempt to *beep* her

i've met some people like this in real life

[–] InternationaleClique 10 years ago

No, he was definitely not into ordinary sex. Remember Joe told him she was surprised he never reacted to the sexual part of her story, like most men did. This mirrors the pedophile, who didn't get excited except for his specific fetish.

Whatever sexual proclivities Seligman had, they didn't surface until that evening, and possibly he wasn't even aware of them.

As to his motive? I think the point was to show that even someone who has gone their whole life without sex it can completely overpower them when it gets turned on. He knew Joe wanted to stop having sex, he knew she had had so much sex she couldn't even masturbate even more. Yet in his lust all his mind can think about is that "she's *beep* thousands of men, we have a connection, why would she object?". Another thing playing in was undoubtedly that she felt sympathy for the pedophile and sucked him off, perhaps he expected the same to happen to him? She'd let him *beep* her out of pity?

If I was to sum the movie up in one sentence it would have to be "the need for sex makes people do things they shouldn't".

[–] cookiela2001 10 years ago

If I was to sum the movie up in one sentence it would have to be "the need for sex makes people do things they shouldn't".

And then they get shot.

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Though Joe herself didn't do anything she "shouldn't" have....except leave her child unattended that once.

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[–] josephbobo 10 years ago

HAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAH! And then they get shot.. lol.

[–] LukeLovesFilm28 10 years ago

So, a woman's pussy is more important than another life?? That's where we're at. So, basically, we should never touch women or seek sexual relations with women, because they're virtue is more important than our lives?? That's bullsh!t.

[–] Zombie55 9 years ago

Maybe its the fact that emotional pain is as bad and possibly worse than a physical pain and that there actually ARE things in life worse than death including death through murder?

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

[–] amandak_24 10 years ago

Remember Joe told him she was surprised he never reacted to the sexual part of her story, like most men did. This mirrors the pedophile, who didn't get excited except for his specific fetish.

Whatever sexual proclivities Seligman had, they didn't surface until that evening, and possibly he wasn't even aware of them.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I've seen a lot of reviews which are downright furious about the ending, viewing it as abrupt, poorly written, or (insert generic "Lars = misogynist" rant here.) The whole point of my post was to revisit that story and exchange, that moment when Joe describes something that he connects with, because it seems to be vastly overlooked. Whether Seligman fought his taboo his entire life, or whether he only became aware of it that night, is left to the viewer, in my mind.

I could not possibly begin to sum this movie up in one sentence, lol. But then again, I'm ridiculously in love with film noir, and subsequently, dissect von Trier to an admittedly annoying degree.

Regardless of anything - it's so satisfying to discuss a film like this with people who are open-minded enough really see and appreciate it. Good on you, Sir.

[–] cookiela2001 10 years ago

I gave the film a casual watch, as I started to get distanced from it when it became clear the writer/director's point of view is fairly distanced and neutral. My least favorite dramatic style is that in the enigmatic, absurdist vein...which I think became most famous in the plays of Pinter + Becket, and have obviously influenced van Trier. It's like, "OMG....it's all so vague...must I do the writers work FOR them and decide what this evening is about??"

So this "it's up to the viewer to decide" angle ISN'T my cup of tea.

The scenes I thought were strongest were the sequence with Mrs H., and then the visits to the sadist in Part II, where the story suddenly takes on a very direct focus. Frankly, all the scenes with the older man don't really add anything, other than a convenient device to keep the heroine talking. The most pertinent thing he adds is the obvious insight about "had you been a man, no one would have judged you."

But sadly, I don't think I have the interest level to watch this film again. It had it's chance. Though I really like the cinematography, and the acting (aside from Young Joe) is strong.

EDIT: I also thought it was interesting that Young Joe wears basically the same costume on the train that Bess wears in Breaking the Waves, in the scene the kids follow her wheeling her bike along. It doesn't seem there's any brilliant meaning in the parallel, but it's at least a touchstone/leitmotif.

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[–] LukeLovesFilm28 10 years ago

So, he deserves to be shot and killed for not having any experience or knowledge in relating to women to get sex?? Murder is still worse than rape. You're taking an entire life, not just dignity.

[–] danavenell 9 years ago

The movie doesn't suggest he deserved to die.

Kylo Ren is one of the weakest force users we've seen. That's a fact.

[–] TheHungryAndAngryShow 10 years ago

So, basically I don't think I can respond without some backstory. I've seen Dancer In The Dark, Epidemic, and The Idiots. I felt emotionally raped by the manipulative ending of Dancer In The Dark, bored to tears during Epidemic, and also bored during The Idiots. I felt like he screwed up with both of those last 2 movies, as he had a good premise with terrible execution. I think his ending to Dancer was particularly bad, and that he needed a punch in the face. So I had made up my mind to never bother with him again, not my cup of tea.

That being said, Nymphomaniac had some draw for me, as I do tend to at least want to see movies that push the envelope and have extreme amounts of sexuality in them. It seemed like this might be good, but my hopes were not high, as although people rave about him well, you get how I felt about those other three.

So I end up watching Volume I in the theater, liked it a lot, and wanted to see Volume II but didn't get around to it. Dragged myself out of bed early the other day to catch the Director's Cut at my local theater, an almost 6 hour event, which is not easy. Rewatching Volume I wasn't terrible, considering I'm not one to rewatch movies that often. I expected a big let down from Volume II, as I know Lars has trouble with endings and everyone I knew said I was better.

I actually enjoyed II, felt like it was the obvious trajectory following the first one, of course it's going to be darker as her life continues to fall apart. I wasn't expecting a love story, nor this to end pretty. I tend to like dark movies, which usually have dark endings. But once again, Lars disappoints. Not because the guy tries to have sex with her, that didn't shock me at all.

I actually know two asexuals in real life. Both have been sexual before, both have times where it's more prominent in their lives. Both have masturbated, as the guy in the movie says he did early on as well, and both have had some level of sexuality in their lives. Crushes, dreams, masturbation, and some sexual touching or kissing and stuff. Neither has gone all out and had sex, and both have admitted that maybe they would at some point. From what I have read online, some asexuals do have sex, either for their partners or for themselves, though way less than those of us that are more sexual beings. Some orgasm, some do not. Therefore, expecting him to have absolutely no reaction to her sexually is expecting too much. Maybe he did get mildly turned on. Maybe it was the way he thought about fishing, he wasn't good at it but he still learned all about it and fished once in a while. Now he learned all about sex, in all sorts of forms, and thought, maybe I should try it this once! We bonded, maybe she won't mind doing me. Obviously in Lars mind this would result in Joe shooting him, which is utterly insane, no matter what she's been through and how she felt towards him. But considering I liked 99% of this movie, I would have to say at the very least it's a bright point considering the ones I have previously seen.

I do think that unless you are very familiar with the types of people in this film, both asexuals, nymphomaniacs, and other general sexual deviants, you would not exactly get how this ending is completely out of touch with an otherwise very touching and honest portrayal of people and how their sexuality can turn out. I know some people VERY close to these characters in their actions, and I wish he could have kept the story closer to how it would really be, rather than do the surprise ending thing, it was a let down.

[–] flpr_ussery 10 years ago

This is the closest to my idea of what happened in the end. I believe he was confident in his asexuality. I think he was still asexual to his death. He never achieved an erection. He tried but he failed. He never had an ounce of lust in him.

I can't put a nail on why but after I saw him stimulate his flaccid penis, I felt like I understood his action. I feel like it was the same as gay people going through conversion therapy, or maybe it was more like Joe reclaiming her sexuality. I think he was trying to discover his sexuality, which is where the phedofile story comes in. It resonated with him. And Joe being who she is, he thought she wouldn't mind him claiming his sexuality, even though it would of been futile.

[–] Korios 10 years ago

In other words Seligman was a self-suppressed rapist just as the "pedophile" (he was not really one; if you neither act upon it or download child porn but just keep the relevant thoughts in your head, maybe even on a deep, subconscious level that you are not consciously aware of, like this guy apparently did, then you are not a pedophile; last time I checked thoughts or subconscious level urges are perfectly legal and yet uncriminizable, even in North Korea) was a self-suppressed pedo lover. Interesting theory.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

[–] LukeLovesFilm28 10 years ago

People like Seligman should be pitied, not condemned, especially when they have a gun to their head. They are too ignorant to be evil.

[–] Bob_Brooker 10 years ago

it seems as if Seligman was not truly asexual, but carried some secret with him which he paralleled with the pedophile in Joe's story. Subsequently, it seems he let down the guard that he held so firmly in place his entire life, after hearing Joe rationalize and sympathize with that man, and finally caved in to his desires.

Insightful, but may be only be half the truth. If this was the ultimate message LVT wanted to drive home, he wouldn't have Seligman utter his last line "But you've *beep* thousands of men". This condescending attitude has to have a relevance beyond his "coming out of the asexual closet".

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Last movie watched: Nymphomaniac: Vol. I8 (6/10)

[–] haikela 10 years ago

Interesting theory. Maybe Seligman has a rape fetish but never acted on it out of fear and shame, choosing to live alone and bury his head in books. Then Joe comes into his life, expressing pity on a non-offending pedophile. He hears Joe state that she will change her ways and knows that she is not physically well enough to have sex. He then sees her sleeping without pants on and thinks that Joe will understand and forgive his kink so he finally feels the freedom to fulfill his sexual desire, but of course he can't tell her before the act because that won't be rape anymore.

[–] dimsung_09 9 years ago

Brilliant analysis, Amandak_24. I love it!

[–] [email protected] (1358) 7 years ago

You make very valid points