MovieChat Forums > The Zero Theorem (2014) Discussion > Do you think people without much educati...

Do you think people without much education/who don't read books ruin...


...the reputation of films like this?

I've just been with a meetup group "cinema lovers" and ended up the only one liking it. One of the first comments was:
- Going to watch "Need for Speed" tonight... This is gonna be awesome!
- In 3D? Oh, yeah, we should have gone and watched this one instead. Such a rip off!

And then I thought: If only films had a warning that this and that movie might not be suitable if your education level is not high enough or if you don't enjoy films without fast cars in them... I know it's unrealistic, but... just a thought...

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Yeah. I guess. But these are really untouchable matters, the general opinion exists but it isn't formed or shaped, it's shapeless and formless. These people wouldn't be capable of sustaining a legacy if they had the capacity to grasp the definition and necessity of the term "legacy". The people who form legacies are the people who can see shapes, and those are the people that mold a reputation in the long run. The average man poses no threat to anything.

Hi I'm an aspiring children's entertainer youtube.com/wildcatpeace

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Oh, I get it. If someone doesn't like the films that you like then they are educationally sub-normal.

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Lol people who thought Need for Speed was good definitely come under that bracket. I even laughed at the trailer and can't take that little twerp from Breaking Bad seriously as an action hero.

I might just watch it for the lulz.

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What do you think is wrong with NFS anyway?
We are forgetting the general concept of movies.
They were meant for fun, time-pass, entertainment.

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I wish there was an UPVOTE on your comment. I am about to watch this movie and read through some of the comments, I am a bit old-school in my thinking, but must agree wholeheartedly with your comments. It could not be more valid in today's society of stress, long-hours and low-pay.

We all need some sort of escape!

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[deleted]

You misunderstood me - I am all for entertainment, but if people prefer dumb entertainment to intelligent entertainment, I reserve the right to look down on them. It doesn't mean I don't like a dumb film every now and then, but film like "ZT" are the most enjoyable ones - they don't need car crashes to be entertaining.

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[deleted]

You thought "ZT" was artsy? Seemed to me like one of Gilliam's most commercial films, nothing difficult or "inaccessible" about this one.

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You thought "ZT" was artsy? Seemed to me like one of Gilliam's most commercial films, nothing difficult or "inaccessible" about this one.

And yet it's possibly his most boring film. It's lacking the artistry AND the subtlety.

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We are forgetting the general concept of movies.
They were meant for fun, time-pass, entertainment.


Who are you to tell us what "the general concept of movies" is?
Sometimes I like to watch something lighthearted that's just "fun, timepass, entertainment."
Other times, I want something more serious that makes me think.
Depends on my mood.
My idea of "entertainment" is different from yours. Things "entertain" me if they capture my interest in an intelligent way.

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I agree with your premise, however i would disagree with NFS in particular being a good movie. A poorly written plot, lack of acting ability and ridiculously fake chase scenes speak for themselves. The movie also seems to operate under premise that we are supposed to like main characters. who, let me remind you, causes major traffic havoc, kills hundreds of people including police officers and do it all in a name of penis measurement contest with stolen cars.

Theres plenty of wrong with NFS.

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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

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See it!.. the lols keep flooding throughout :D (you might need several "count-to-ten-annoyance-breathe-breaks" though).

Life is What Happens To You While You're Busy watching movies.

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You mistake your elitist snobbery with intellect. Education without empathy and understanding- without respect for others different than yourself- shows the ignorance within yourself that you accuse the less educated of having.

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An almost perfect example of the anti-intellectualism that lessens the world for everyone. Well done.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/MakeADreddSequel

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You think you are "uber smart" because you like this film and "got it"? There was not much to get so I wouldn't mistake liking this movie for intelligence. There was nothing mind blowing about this movie, it didn't educate its viewer in any way, or even make them think. If you were already a thinker going in, you were bored coming out. Your friends may not have liked this movie, but if you are highly educated and intelligent, you will find it tedious.

I think it's sad that you consider yourself part of the smart club over liking a movie, very pretentious.

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> Education without empathy and understanding - without respect for others different than yourself- shows the ignorance within yourself that you accuse the less educated of having

OK… People with less education like dumber films. True or false? If true, what would you suggest to show compassion? Not to mention this at all?

> There was not much to get so I wouldn't mistake liking this movie for intelligence

That is actually true, there wasn’t so much to get, the film was quite easily “accessible”. It doesn’t mean it was a stupid film, it just means what it means.
But again, it’s not simply about “getting” the film (or “a film”), it’s about liking certain films that e.g. miss high speed chases in 3D. What I’m saying is: Less educated people tend to dislike films that lack the usual, “exciting” elements or that aren’t based on the same standard formulas, and then they go to message boards such as this and review the film using terms like “sux balls”. Again, true or false?

I understand that I might come across as an elitist intellectual. I am not. Yes, I may be a bit of a snob, because yes, I’m proud of my education and I don’t particularly enjoy hanging out with people who are, well, “rough”. I will still go to the cinema to watch the new “Transformers”.
This is not supposed to be me justifying myself, just wanted to make things clear.

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I agree with you in the sense that less smart people seem to gravitate towards mindless flicks, particularly action flicks, like The Transformers. But, I think you are mistaking education for intelligence. Education is the memorisation of facts, whereas, intelligence is the actually ability to think. And believe it or not, people actually thinking for themselves nowadays is extremely rare. People are far too conditioned and brainwashed by the media, it's extremely disturbing. One could be highly educated and also be quite stupid and vice versa.

I think the movie was quite pretentious and bland. It didn't have a lot to say. I got all of the references, but there were far too many scenes with nothing going on and I felt at times that it thought it was smarter than the viewer. It was very obvious what the general theme of the movie was, there was no need for a lot of the pointless scenes and dialogue, it didn't add anything to the story. It's nothing I haven't seen before and it's certainly not a movie that makes you think. It was disappointing overall.

Your original post annoyed me because it came across as very arrogant and elitist. You were insinuating that stupid/less educated (which are not the same thing) people would dislike the movie. Whereas, it is a matter of taste and opinion.

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I'm very well aware that education doesn't equal intelligence, but honestly: Better educated people do tend do be smarter, right? And also less rough around the edges, and their taste in films is based less on the amount of explosions. I'm not thinking that "Zero Theorem" made me think a lot, but it is a film that people with higher education are more likely to enjoy than mechanics or painters. Correct? Now, all I said was: If the wrong kind of people watches this kind of film (this would also apply to many other Gilliam films - and many other films full stop; my statement was of general nature), they would probably hate them and spread the word how bad they are, right? You can't say I'm totally wrong here.

> You were insinuating that stupid/less educated (which are not the same thing) people would dislike the movie.

And I stick to my opinion. I'm not blaming you for calling me a snob or getting annoyed, I do realize how it sounded. Doesn't make it less true for me.

Thanks a lot for your input, Tomolive_1989!

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Not just less educated. I am a well-educated (to degree level professional qualification), well-read (voraciously since I was 5, I am now 62), resolutely lowbrow, and normally a fan of Gilliam. I thought this was a jumbled mess which was a lot less clever than it thought it was. Production design: great. Waltz: great. Script: oh dear.

I'd rather have seen Need For Speed. In 3D.

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You two are really heading towards endless vertigo of labeling people all around... With your wild comments: dumb or less intelligent people like worthless flicks or less educated ones don't bother to watch great work of some excellent director. Who died and put you two as judges of other people entertainment in any industry, as well as movie one. Lot of people are fed up of films like this, which doesn't have any earthly meaning, tired of everyday stupidity all around them, on the work, radio, TV, they are just wired and want to get home to their family, enjoy a simple family life and maybe, at some point, watch relaxing flick, which can easily make them sleep through most of the part, since tomorrow is another slave day at the office or whatever work they are doing. Since lot of the very people that you slandering just want to relax and watch something that can make them forget their tough situation, or miserable life at the edge of exsistence, and for once lose themselvs in some NFS or Transformer, or any other imaginary world which are simplest and easier than their own!

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Well, that's the things, they don't consider films like "Zero Theorem" entertainment. I thought it was very entertaining.

Generally, as to the question of it being Gilliam's worst: OK, perhaps, so what? Why do we have to compare it to "Brazil" and his other work? Yes, I felt a bit let down by the ending, too, but I never ever got bored, and the film was still much better than average. I'm not saying it should get ten Oscars.

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Part of education is naturally about learning facts, but even more important is, that you learn (and train) how to learn and to solve problems. Being intelligent helps in getting an education. Usually quite stupid people do not become highly educated. In the old days, memorization was a much bigger part of school.

(Yes, his original post is totally elitist, and it is indeed a matter of taste and opinion.)

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OK, let me just put it very bluntly: There is some road worker (or, if you like, a money-grabbing, horny, sleazy salesperson that rings you up offering stuff - they aren't much better), who goes and see, let's say, "Schindler's List", because he hears it's supposed to be good. Comes out, says he hates it because it was boring and posts it everywhere he can. Other people read how much he hated it and think they don't want take chances, either, especially as it's 3 hrs something, and miss a masterpiece.
Makes sense now?

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So, you hate road workers and sales people? Wow, aren't you a nasty bit of work. Selling is one of the oldest professions. And you call them "money grabbing" - who isn't money grabbing? Einstein pointed out that we all have to compete in the rat race because of the existence of our stomachs.

The more I read of your bile, the more I dislike you. I bet you have a very slappable face? Do you get punched a lot? And is this why you like to take your frustrations out on the internet? Because you're scared you'll get punched in real life.

The evidence of your cowardice is on your original post - you could have just told the lady to keep it down. If someone ruins a movie I've paid to go and see, I'll damn well make a fuss if I can't hear it. And if they don't shut up, I'd have management throw them out.

But you are a coward, and bottle up all of your rage until you nearly pee yourself. You then come online and moan about "types" of people, ones that you deem below you for some strange reason.

What do you do for a living? And why do you consider yourself better than other people?

Mr. Laurio, never trust a beautiful woman. Especially one who's interested in you.

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Eugh.

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> Education without empathy and understanding - without respect for others different than yourself- shows the ignorance within yourself that you accuse the less educated of having

OK… People with less education like dumber films. True or false? If true, what would you suggest to show compassion? Not to mention this at all?

> There was not much to get so I wouldn't mistake liking this movie for intelligence

That is actually true, there wasn’t so much to get, the film was quite easily “accessible”. It doesn’t mean it was a stupid film, it just means what it means.
But again, it’s not simply about “getting” the film (or “a film”), it’s about liking certain films that e.g. miss high speed chases in 3D. What I’m saying is: Less educated people tend to dislike films that lack the usual, “exciting” elements or that aren’t based on the same standard formulas, and then they go to message boards such as this and review the film using terms like “sux balls”. Again, true or false?

I understand that I might come across as an elitist intellectual. I am not. Yes, I may be a bit of a snob, because yes, I’m proud of my education and I don’t particularly enjoy hanging out with people who are, well, “rough”. I will still go to the cinema to watch the new “Transformers”.
This is not supposed to be me justifying myself, just wanted to make things clear.


Apparently you do not have enough intelligence to use quotes correctly, so I wouldn't be so snobby towards people who did not like this movie.

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Dont be lazy, use the [quote ] [/ quote] tag.

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Hm, I had a look at your other posts, and you seem to be calling people names quite a lot. Gonna report you now, anyway.

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[deleted]

Reported, for posting that you report people.

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It says a lot about our society when a film like Need for Speed is at the top of the box office and stays around for ages and a film like this is pushed to one side and doesn't last for more than a week at my local cinema.

I can see why so much drivel is made these days with a lack of script/characterisation etc. Another thing abot modern audiences is that they can't hold their concentration for longer than 5 seconds. One of the reasons so many found Inception confusing when I found it really easy to follow. All it took was concentration.

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It has nothing to do with intelligence, education or our society. After 20 minutes, your attention starts to drop, and after an hour, you're no longer paying attention. This is true no matter how much the subject interests you. Movies are designed to fit this, by going up and down in intensity, and giving us mental breaks. Inception is no different.

People go to the movies to kick back, relax and be entertained, and "dumb" actionfilms provide exactly that. Nothing more to it.

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It has nothing to do with intelligence, education or our society.


It actually has, it has to do with everything. Because "attention span."

After 20 minutes, your attention starts to drop, and after an hour, you're no longer paying attention.


I paid attention during the whole movie. So, wrong.

People go to the movies to kick back, relax and be entertained...


I don't. Wrong again.

Movies are ART, and not all art is "entertainment." A large chunk of art in fact doesn't care much about entertaining, but it aims to inspire, free, or wake people the **** up. Zero Theorem is one such movie.

Not all movies are entertainment, and if people seriously make a habit of seeing movies as a sort of daily therapy... boy is that some bad news... Better spend 5 minutes in front of the mirror than self-medicating with whatever the industry pumps out.

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[deleted]

> I see this all the time among liberals and especially Europeans. The younger they are, the worse they are.

Funny, you said it in the same tone of voice I would have spoken about conservatives and Americans. Aren't your country supposed to be based on the principles of liberty? How can you even use this as a curse word?

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I'm an adult, I don't think highly of "true artists" who, due to their enormous egos, think they have some kind of right to tell me how I ought to think. Who are they to tell me that I even need to be "inspired," or "freed," or "woken up"?


If you allow me, there are several fallacies at play here, and some ego mirroring. Firstly, not all true or great artists (there's no such thing, really, there is only relevance and irrelevance) have enormous egos. I, for one, can't remember an artist I admire or like that would be suspect of an enormous ego. Leonardo da Vinci? Gustav Klimt? Alex Grey? Neil Gaiman? Umberto Eco? Vincent van Gogh? Leo Tolstoy? They may have a strong identity, but identity does not equal ego (and all of these were rather explicitly selfless artists). Identity usually emerges after the ego is shed, because ego usually impedes creative identity. (One example would be Salvador Dali, but he's a difficult one to read, because much of his behavior was indeed artistic performance, so, a show. Oscar Wilde can be accused of ego too, but if you read his De Profundis, you'll realize it's anything but.) So, then, I think it's safe to assume not all great artists have huge egos. The successful ones usually have a diminished ego. Ego doesn't bring success (at least, not artistic, because the values that an ego would produce would not stand the test of time).

I also find it very ironic that you talk about enormous egos and "who are they to tell me", but you confess you read Nietzsche. LOL, can I ask why? Did Nietzsche perhaps force your hand to buy a book of his so he can preach unto your precious adult person? No, he did not. No artist, or author, or philosopher, ever does. They hold an opinion (or an idea), and they present it to the world, the general public, the humanity (sometimes aggressively, sometimes very humbly). The relation there is one addressing the world, humanity. So one's ideas go out. Now, you, as an individual, go out, enter a bookstore or a video store, and make a conscious choice to pick up an artist's (or author's, pr philosopher's) book or a work, and then you see what it has to communicate to you - the author's/work's values and ideas are presented to you, let me repeat, BY YOUR FREE CHOICE, and thereafter you DECIDE what you do with it. Wanna hate the author? Fine. Disagree with him/her? Perfectly fine. Agree? Fine too. Anything but "he made me do it", or "he was vain so he had the audacity to tell me what to think", because that's purely hypocritical. You can't blame someone else for his work or words for YOUR choice to read/experience what that person said or created. He didn't push your hand. You, decided, to see what he thinks. And blaming an artist for a 'huge ego' or insinuating 'they try to change you' is disingenuous and I think, hardly adult. An adult doesn't evade personal responsibility by shifting the weight of his free choice to an artist or author that probably isn't even alive. An adult owns his choices.

I'll skip the prejudiced judgments about young Europeans etc. Now on to the positive:

Contrary to what one such "true artist" may think, I am intelligent enough to go watch Transformers (as an example, personally I hated it) and then go home and read Nietzsche.


You see, me too. We're on the same page here. But there's a whole crowd out there that wouldn't accept anything less entertaining as Transformers. It's a culture thing (I wouldn't go deeper here, it would probably take another paragraph).

True, not all art is entertainment.


Thanks for agreeing.


However, ALL successful art is entertaining.


Not so sure about this, however. Why? Because what's "entertaining" is a pretty relative notion, maybe even completely subjective. To me, Transformers is boring, and will be forgotten 10 years from now. To someone else (IMO the "I watch movies for entertainment crowd"), Alien is boring, and will be forgotten in 10 years. (Hint: is it? It's been almost 30-40 since then.) Using the same analogy, 95% of the people out there will most definitely find Nietzsche boring as hell. Is Nietzsche forgotten, though? No, he isn't. Why? Surely not because of his desire to entertain. And so on. So, on this, I disagree. Entertainment is not what gives something a lasting value, it's rather, meaning. Just my opinion, anyways.

Otherwise it is doomed, rightfully so, to be forgotten.


Lots of 'boring' works of art still endure and will continue to do so long after we're gone. So, nope.

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dear panda, you sir, lack the intellegence, to talk about any topic that involves intellegence lol

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I'll copy what I wrote to another user who had made a similar comment:

"There is this special category of users who intervene in a topic using just one sentence (which they usually don't even bother to start with a capital letter), and in this sentence they put some insult; that's their entire contribution to the discussion. Yes, the type of people that never seem to touch a book. And you kind of seem to belong to that type, sorry to say that."

Perhaps I should add that they are mostly American (the way it seems to me), but I can't prove it.

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Of course you are wrong. I am not american and i read books, all your arguments are invalid. By the way why are you obsessed with reading books? Just caus you read harry potter or hunger games dude, get a life.

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I rarely read fantasy, and the reason I am so "obsessed" with books is: Usually, people who read them are nice, intelligent and generally good to have around, whereas those who don't turn out to be a waste of time. Alright?

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[deleted]

Don't be silly, that's why I wrote "generally". You realize perfectly well that I'm right, so you're just trying to find something to counter my point (you're not the only one using this "technique", though).

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[deleted]

OK, for some reason, people have decided that I only watch "intellectual" stuff, but this is just not true. I can watch "Transformers" just as well, and I'm still very fond of those direct-to-video junk that was coming out in the 90s with lots of people being beaten up the Shaolin way. I have the choice, and I can watch both with equal pleasure. Also, I do perfectly understand that films are a matter of taste (apart from "Clerks", which everybody must like), but if I see that clearly non-reading morons thrash a good film just because it didn't feature car chases, I do get pissed.

I've never read "Hunger Games", and generally not so much fantasy/sci-fi, only when I was a kid/teenager, but as I already said, I very well believe that only people with "better brains" derive pleasure from reading. It doesn't even have to be fiction - e.g. I'm just finishing one called "Yesterday's Britain", and I sometimes stayed up until 3 am just to read as much of it as possible.
Obviously, people also read books for work, studies etc, but that's something else entirely. Obviously, I meant as a hobby, for their own enjoyment.

P.S. I didn't really think "Catching Fire" was junk, anyway. I mean, if you liked the first part, I don't see what's not to like about the second one, a certain repetitiveness put aside.

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[deleted]

That is not so much about how people who do or don't read books are. It's about yourself, and how you receive and perceive these people.

Perhaps those people you think are a waste of time, are that way with you, because they don't see any reason to accommodate someone with your attitude, towards people who do not share your taste in movies and books.

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soupphysics, I hear what you're saying, but you're overlooking the general picture. Let me say it again (although I've already said it a few times): People who read are better and smarter, not only because they read or have studied, but the fact that they read for pleasure is simply an indicator of this. They enjoy not only blockbusters, but also different kinds of films. In my original post, I simply noted that people who don't read perhaps shouldn't be exposed to films like those that TG makes, because they wouldn't enjoy them even if they watched "Brazil", which seems to be considered the best one by Gilliam (and I guess I'll agree), so they will go on message boards and talk to their friends and probably influence quite a lot of people not to go and see them. OK?

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I'm finishing up my Ph.d in theoretical physics. I don't read for pleasure. I don't enjoy reading. I can almost guarantee you that I would score higher on an IQ test than you and five of your highbrow friends taking the same test cooperatively. You have a slight point on a superficial level, but your douchey pretentious attitude is off putting. Did it ever occur to you that maybe it's not a question of unintelligence but rather underexposure? People may not enjoy these films because they most likely have not taken a survey course in philosophy where themes such as nihilism (the central theme of this movie imo) are explored, so they have zero frame of reference to process what they are seeing. Does that make these people "less better or less smarter"? Absolutely not. If I handed you a sheet of differential equations to solve and you've never taken a multivariable calculus class and therefore not able to solve them, should I regard myself as superior to you, and turn my nose up at you? Also, your being concerned about "dumb" people influencing their friends into not seeing this movie is highly illogical. How many "dumb" people are going to actively seek this movie out? How many of these people will watch the trailer or read the synopsis and say "Hey, this is right up my alley!"? Secondly, the friends of these "dumb" people are most likely not going to be Rhodes scholars themselves so why care if they are influenced and decide not to see the movie? You have self esteem issues. One thing I've noticed over the years is that the degree to which people put others down is directly related to the degree in which they are insecure. It's almost certainly an inverse square equation like Coulumb's law.

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Ha - theoretical physics, that's nothing. This guy is way smarter than you, as he reads Harry Potter books. Lol!

Mr. Laurio, never trust a beautiful woman. Especially one who's interested in you.

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OK, griffmailz, you are smart, I can see that, and congratulations on that, too. Seriously. I do admit that you must be smarter than me. OK, so you're one of those people who in spite of their high level of education don't read for pleasure. You're an exception, and logically, there must be many more. Did I say or imply that there can be no exceptions? Of course there can, but the principle stands.

I realise, of course, that I am seen as a villain for what I said, and that's fine. I don't think there is a nice way of putting it. It's still true.

> Also, your being concerned about "dumb" people influencing their friends into not seeing this movie is highly illogical. How many "dumb" people are going to actively seek this movie out?

Well, I went with a whole group (about eight people, I think) - one guy organised it, not really knowing much about the film, and the rest just tagged along. Here we go. In my defense, it was my first time with that meetup; my girlfriend didn't want to see it, so I thought I might give them a shot.

> Secondly, the friends of these "dumb" people are most likely not going to be Rhodes scholars themselves so why care if they are influenced and decide not to see the movie.

You've probably seen how much scum comes to message boards like this one, but smarter people, too. It's possible that somebody who relies on the opinion of others may be put off from going and seeing a film for a wrong reason.

> You have self esteem issues. One thing I've noticed over the years is that the degree to which people put others down is directly related to the degree in which they are insecure.

It's your right to believe that, and I guess there is no way I can prove otherwise...

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You have self esteem issues.

Look who's talking! Lololol! Mr "I need an ego boost on the internet" lolololol!

Mr. Laurio, never trust a beautiful woman. Especially one who's interested in you.

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While you wronte more than one sentence and certainly capitalized them, you also provided nothing more but mere insult to other posters, hence your actions are hardly better than theirs. On top of that, you generalized a whole nation based on stereotype.

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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

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By the way, I would really be interested how our more "scummy" members got to see this film. Tagged along with friends or maybe expected to see some fluffy sci-fi comedy?

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