Obviously, one of the biggest driving forces behind this show was whether or not Daniel killed Hannah. I think we can all agree that he didn't do it, but there is definitely some shade thrown onto who actually did it. The whole time I watched this show, I got the impression that Trey killed Hannah, but then in the finale, he tries to say it was Chris that did it. He could be telling stories again, trying to save his hide, but at some point in the last episode, I wanted them to flashback to the night of the incident and show us exactly what happened on that night. I'd be curious to get people's thoughts on this particular scene, had it been included in the finale.
1) an objective (non-memory) view, which would be a blatant cheat because its motivation could only be external to the story;
Or,
2) the view of the murderer's memory or that of a witness to his murder, which would also be a blatant cheat because the show had never jumped into the internal point-of-view of any character but Daniel.
A flashback would have been cheesy, drawing attention to its arbitrariness, rupturing the spell of the story, disrespecting both its spirit and the audience.
The story centered on the impossibility of knowing to a certainty, and working with circumstantial evidence. Which is how the majority of real cases work, unlike the way they're framed in mainstream shows. The circumstantial evidence against Trey is far greater than that against Chris.
From character to crime this show savoured and explored ambiguity, different ways of seeing, rather than reducing, which is what a flashback would have done.
We do have Daniel's hallucinatory flashback that opened Ep. 207, Weird As You, which had a partly objective feel to it owing to Peggy Lee singing Is That All There Is? I think that's enough.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Daniel had several flashbacks, you just didn't get to see what was going on in his head, its just not the type of flashback you expected for
he had real flashbacks, not literary ones, ones that would trigger and storm up emotions so powerful that he would be moved into silent tears, careless whispers, and coffee cracking,
I love the flashback device especially if it is intentionally planned by the writers and not some crutch to fix a crappy story, but not many shows I have watched do it. I would have loved to have been taken back to that critical night and shown what happened. I think it would have been great for the ending of the show.
George Melton, by way of Hanna's own brother, Bobby Dean, flashed us back:
"Trey went back."
In keeping with the style and spirit of the story's telling, those three short words do the equivalent of an overt flashback in a more mainstream show. To ask for more than they deliver is to ask for a different kind of show.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Cliff, the confusion is yours in this case, and it's led to pedantry. Redirect that energy and look up the meanings of the word "equivalent." You'll find that it doesn't mean that one thing is exactly the same as another. Which is why I chose the word.
In terms of relevant meaning -- that is, related to the desire to know whodunnit -- those three words do the equivalent of an overt flashback because they impart the core information a flashback would. A flashback would only provide an elaboration of the essential fact. And even that would be redundant since we actually have that elaboration, in the form of a few more words, spoken by CJ Pickens: "She was pretty beat up down there. Wounds like that, a young man has to be angry." So we do know close to "exactly what happened."
Devices: they aren't useful in all cases, such as if they violate the spirit of a story, which an explicit, definitive flashback would do in the case of Rectify. Another violation, not mentioned previously, would be the ick-factor of showing "exactly what happened." The violence done to Hanna would not only be gratuitous, but be so disturbing that it would overwhelm the other scenes, unbalancing the relatively restrained send-off. Devices must be chosen with care.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Expository dialogue can certainly have an equivalent purpose to a flashback. In this case, the dialogue refers to the past, the purpose being to inform us of wholikelydunnit, which a flashback would have revealed in graphic form. Thus the equivalence. Pickens' dialogue was meant to give us an elaboration of that same past, moments later.
McKinnon had characters use words that encouraged us to make images of our own. It's a way of providing a flashback via our own imaginations. This has a long and effective history in the movies.
Cliff, your last paragraph I boomerang back as it should be addressed to sender. I would prefer to judge analysis of the series, rigorously and forthrightly, but not get tangled in the personal.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Well, add that to CJ's words and it gets pretty specific. Add that to the photograph/s of Hanna that Foulkes insisted Daniel look at, and you won't lack for material to construct a complete mental picture.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
i just can't visually recall with a combination of memory and imagination, i can't make a definitive answer in my brain whether is was chris or trey, i can see either them doing it, but i can;t make a choice who
i know that it isn't daniel, but it still could very well be chris , despite the fact that trey went back, maybe chris did too,
i don't need to know though, i know daniel is innocent, because i know him, because i know him, because i know him
Sure, but to get to a point one takes a certain route. Which is really the point, when you get down to it. The journey matters more than the destination.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
I think Chris actually did it. I never thought Trey did it. The thing with Trey is, that people tend to think he's capable of anything, "just" because he's such an *beep* If he wasn't, people might not have suspected him in the first place.
Chris is smart. The way he pops up, confesses to the rape, a crime he can't be punished for anymore and while he so generously volunteers for that, he tries to incriminate Trey. Who he knows is already in trouble.
Then later there's also the scene with his daughter and the TV, he turns it off rather quickly and lies badly about it and his daughter just knows something is wrong, but isn't exactly sure what.
I think Chris has practice in having other people be the fall guy. First Daniel, now Trey.
well the TV advert could have been just him been embarassed for being involved in the case at all, you can;t really explain to your 10-14 year old daughter that you once raped a girl who was murdered a few hours later, even if you aren't a murderer
trey is a slimy swarmy mafaka,
but there was that part in CJ pickens deposition, where he says "we thought he we covering for a friend...holden" i think it could abe very well possible that trey had some sort of pay off, to hold the secret, he seems very well off, very intelligent,
on the other hand chris is a doctor, so he went to medical school, he knows about dna,
in the end does it really matter? and would you want a rapist being your doctor, no matter how long ago it was?
would you want a rapist in your house doing construction?
It's not just the TV scene, also - he's outright scared. Trey, on the other hand, is not scared, although he was scared when the sheriff didn't believe him that he didn't kill that guy. The fact that he wasn't scared again, tells me this time is different.
I remember more and more stuff. The sheriff was seen talking with Chris' dad, the day of Daniel's interrogation, they were friends and it's likely he was influencing things. Chris obviously confessed to his dad, so...
in the end does it really matter? and would you want
Uhm lol? If you ask yourself such questions, then it obviously does matter to you.
reply share
Yes, because his life is about to implode even if Trey is found guilty. He's upset because he is not going to escape informal justice. The investigation and trial will expose him as a rapist who not only covered up his crime but is associated with the tragic miscarriage of justice that sent an innocent man to solitary confinement on death row for 20 years, while he went on to enjoy a privileged life.
Trey brings up the supposed bite on Nelms' hand to muddy the waters. Muddying the waters is Trey's stock-in-trade. See his entire exchange with Daniel in George's trailer. He loves to manipulate, to play with people. He's an ace opportunist, an inveterate liar, and he has the capacity to spontaneously do all that under pressure.
But Trey's scar story won't help because there's other evidence against him. This will include the murdered girl's own brother's testimony that George Melton told him "Trey went back."
Moreover, Nelms has already admitted to rape, that the act was not consensual, but was forced. A bite mark on the hand of any one of Hanna's three rapists is not going to be unexpected. Trey doesn't know that Nelms has made this confession.
they were friends and it's likely he was influencing things. Chris obviously confessed to his dad
To taking part in gang rape, yes.
Roger Nelms' influence resulted in George being forced to change his story -- the story Trey had ordered him and Chris to tell "or else." That story being that they saw no sex or rape at all.
When Trey heard about George's unexpected version of events, he realized that George had now actually pointed a finger at Daniel and that Foulkes pressured him to do that. He realized then that LE were evidently more than half-way convinced that Daniel was their man. Which means he had an opportunity to tighten their tunnel vision.
He accomplished that, not by saying he saw Daniel raping Hanna, but by DENYING he saw it, which made it seem to LE that he was "protecting a friend" as CJ assumed, while adding another lie in the form of claiming he saw Daniel and Hanna arguing, which gave LE the motive they were looking for.
This same premeditation, this coolness under fire, happened earlier that day, before the kids were brought to the station. Trey had the presence of mind to call on Chris and reinforce that they keep their stories united, thereby implying that he did not know Hanna was dead.
Trey emphasized more than once -- I count three from memory -- that he could have sex with Hanna anytime he wanted. Since she was 14, in fact. It is a key fact that Trey was, and remains, seriously invested in the idea that he'd never need to force this girl to have sex with him. He jumps at any suggestion that his motive to kill her might be related to her denying him sexual access "anytime I wanted to." It's a point of pride with him to let people know that.
Except... we know that on that night, Hanna DID refuse him. As Nelms testifies, Trey described this as "change the rules in the middle of the game," to deny him sex, and he was "not going to go down for that." It's important to note that Nelms quotes Trey saying the exact same words we hear Trey himself use when talking to Daggett: "Not going to go down for that."
Trey says to Daggett that he never "thought" he raped Hanna because to him it could only be consensual. Therefore, he wants Daggett to know, he could have no motive for killing her.
According to Trey, the only one Hanna refused permission was Chris, ergo Chris had motive to kill her. Trey evidently cannot accept Hanna "changing the rules" on him. To his mind it can't ever be non-consensual, since she is his to be had "any time I wanted." By that logic, Trey should "not go down for that" -- "that" being a rule that, in his mind, could not apply to him.
Trey assumed Hanna was easy. How dare she turn around and refuse him - and in front of other boys? And now there was even a risk she might claim he raped her. And Nelms and George might give in and confess all three of them gang raped her. From his POV, all of this would amount to exposure of his being denied access to this girl that he could “have” anytime he liked. She caused all this anxiety by "changing the rules."
Evidently having free access to Hanna for sex was a point of pride with him. She meant something to him, but not in an affectionate sense, because someone you can "have" any time you like is effectively property. And so, after Hanna is dead Trey keeps in his lockbox along with other childhood items a nostaligic keepsake of Hanna -- her hair scrunchie.
Trey tells Daniel:
TREY You know what? If it had been me? I would've gone down there and killed every sonofabitch who put anything inside of her.
Here he literally projects himself into Daniel's shoes - that is, someone who has a "claim" on the girl, witnessing her having sex with others. What he actually did is threaten to kill those others if they tell, and kills the girl who, in his mind, started out letting them "have" her, then "changed the rules" and denied them. That is rage.
SHERIFF PICKENS Daniel, you know what happened. She was pretty beat up down there. Wounds like that, a young man has to be angry,
Nelms testifies:
NELMS But afterwards, she was more worried about Daniel than what had happened... Well, she kept asking us not to tell him... She just sat there. Looking ashamed, and I don't know how else to say this, but kind of pouty... like how my daughter does now sometimes when she's... hurt, or mad. Or disappointed.
So Hanna, who Trey tells Daggett he'd been having sex with since she was 14, not only "changed the rules," causing him grief, but adding insult to injury was now thinking only of Daniel – and telling him, Trey, not to say anything to him! With that comment Hanna made it crystal clear that she belonged to Daniel, NOT to Trey, and in a way that Trey could never access.
The blows to his ego just kept coming, that being the topper. There’s the rage CJ was talking about, the motive. That’s why “Trey went back,” and that’s why he was happy to send Daniel to death row.
When we think about motivation, we have to acknowledge that Trey ticks all the boxes of psychopathy: manipulative, narcissistic, emotionally shallow, grandiose, and so on. Further, violent psychopathy runs in the family, as we learn in George's trailer. Trey talks about his psycho relative, and is not happy when Daniel clarifies that the man isn't just Trey's dad's second cousin, but his cousin too.
On the one hand, the link to madness doesn't sit well with Trey, which is why he keeps emphasizing "once removed." But on the other, he also admits he was not horrified by his cousin's act, and in fact was and is intrigued by the madness, wishing he'd seen the Lorca plays -- that is, he wishes he'd experienced the sources he thinks led to his cousin's madness:
TREY I had an uncle who went batshit. Just lost it. A cousin, I guess it was. Is.
DANIEL How'd he lose it?
TREY My dad's 2nd cousin. He's old now.
DANIEL So he's your 2nd cousin too.
TREY What?
DANIEL Your dad's 2nd cousin is your 2nd cousin, only once removed.
TREY Yeah. Anyway. He just lost it one day, man.
DANIEL That can happen...
TREY He's was, uh, artsy. Real artsy. Well, however artsy you can be in Spartinburg. He was always putting on plays... lots of Spanish stuff...
DANIEL Lorca?
TREY Sure, doesn't matter.
DANIEL Lorca was shot on the side of the road, a month into the Spanish civil war.
TREY Well my dad's cousin stabbed a librarian in the face three days into 1991.
...
TREY Hey, you want me to turn down the jambs? So she's not worried about you being around a bad element? Tell her you are the bad element. (pause) I was just a kid, back then. I never understood why he did it, my 2nd cousin. (looks to the back room) Once removed! I remember my family being horrified. Didn't understand that either. To be honest. I wasn't horrified. I was like, wow -- wish I'd seen them plays.
Another thing to watch with Trey: how often he says "To be honest."
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
reply share
because his life is about to implode even if Trey is found guilty. He's upset because he is not going to escape informal justice.
His life is already going to explode, so this shouldn't give him additional worries. Stuff like that is never going to stay buried, especially not in such a small town. Realistically, people would already know about that much anyway. You can't just go somewhere and confess to rape and expect no one to know about it. Even if there isn't an outright press conference, people will talk.
Trey doesn't know that Nelms has made this confession.
There is a whole scene in which the Sheriff personally tells Trey about it, so he knows. The scene goes on with Trey saying Nelms is lying and the Sheriff saying "why would he lie...".
reply share
It's not a case of additional worries but of additional intensity of the same worries. The reality is starting to hit hard. The press conference signals the beginning of widespread knowledge of his guilt. The scene of his testimony showed how badly he wanted to distance from the past, from responsibility: "God, it was so long ago. I'm not the same person. I wasn't even that person back then." The press conference slams shut that hope of escape.
You're right about Trey knowing about the confession. Good catch. Sheez, I even quoted it in this thread. All Chris can do is deny Nelms' testimony on the grounds that he "never thought" he was raping Hanna as opposed to Nelms knowing. I have a feeling that's not going to fly very far with Sondra.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
But Trey's scar story won't help because there's other evidence against him. This will include the murdered girl's own brother's testimony that George Melton told him "Trey went back."
A big flaw with this Trey theory is putting so much stock in the "trey went back" line.
Even if we ignore the out-of-show fact that the showrunners structure of the season and finale points towards Chris, and we only look at in-show, there is little reason to believe this particular line.
The line comes from Bobby Dean who very recently almost killed another innocent person that he wanted to believe had done the crime. Once more stuff comes out and the spotlight was put on Trey, here comes Bobby Dean with this convenient memory. There's no reason to believe this is a credible source.
Now when the viewer does consider the likely out-of-show intention of the writers, it's pretty clear that we are meant to believe Bobby Dean and the exchange is meant to lead the viewer to Trey which continues along to Nelms&Chris.
reply share
Which means Chris can be arraigned on rape charges because they have his DNA
It's implied that they do not.
DAGGETT It was George Melton's DNA, the single sample.
DANIEL I don't what game you're playing today, Sheriff.
DAGGETT I believe George raped Hanna, Daniel. And I feel pretty confident that Trey and Chris Nelms and maybe others had sex with her, too, against her will. Maybe not initially, but like you said in the debrief. And I believe it's their DNA in that mixed sample that was tested. We just don't have the science yet to single them out.
And:
DAGGETT Chris Nelms said y'all raped Hanna.
TREY He's lying.
DAGGETT Why would he lie about that?
TREY Y'all didn't tell him it was George's DNA, did you? The single sample. Chris still thinks it might be his, doesn't he?
DAGGETT You know a lot about DNA for an electrician, Trey.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
reply share
i guess the emotional distraughtness brought on by the finale clouded what i heard i wonder why at this point in history they can't identify the other 2? like i thought science was better then that twin peaks had dna tests in like a day , (twinnnnnn peakkkkkkks)
DAGGETT It was George Melton's DNA, the single sample.
DANIEL I don't what game you're playing today, Sheriff.
DAGGETT I believe George raped Hanna, Daniel. And I feel pretty confident that Trey and Chris Nelms and maybe others had sex with her, too, against her will. Maybe not initially, but like you said in the debrief. And I believe it's their DNA in that mixed sample that was tested. We just don't have the science yet to single them out.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
reply share