MovieChat Forums > Top of the Lake (2013) Discussion > The most obvious evidence who the father...

The most obvious evidence who the father was (SPOILERS)

posted 11 years ago by drywall2-1
31 replies | jump to latest

It's Matt.

He goes on and on the entire show publicly lamenting his daughter, he loves his daughter, etc etc, he gets his own search parties together, but then when he finally finds her, he goes alone (no witnesses), he's not happy to see Tui, he doesn't help Tui, he just takes the baby - the baby that could send him to jail.

He then points his gun at the baby and screams what do you want from me? As in how could you possibly expect me to accept your existence? What do you expect me to do? I can't have you around. He's ready to execute the baby to protect himself.

A number of times he whips himself at the grave - he has enormous guilt over what he did. He feels he's being watched.

He keeps Tui's room pristine, ready for things go back to they were before the pregnancy. Hoping he can make things as they were.

He got the bikers to search for Tui so he could get her first before the police.

There's no evidence Matt had any idea about the pedophile ring Al was running out of the coffee shop. Al had the big boat and the house because Matt was paying him off for his silence on the drug business.

All this talk about DNA test switches may have indeed happened, but Matt's actions prove he was the father.

I do have a question about Jamie - why did he have a bottle of roofies?

[–] LDianeSN 11 years ago

Jamie was one of the kids who worked at the coffee shop, he was one of the ones involved in what was happening in the police officer's home. (I forget his name, Al?) He may have been taking it for that, or he may have taken it to help Tui during birth, since he would know it would knock her out. He would have gotten at Al's house (if it was Al!). Probably thought it would help during childbirth.

I don't agree that Matt gives away his paternity. Sure, we wonder all along. But, right from the start he denies she could be pregnant, as she is only 12. First, he suggests she will have an abortion, but it's too late. Then, a "miscarriage" but she runs away. He wanted to deny she was pregnant, and taking the baby, there being no baby when others found her would show there never was one. At least in his eyes. He was pretty crazy. Maybe he didn't realize he was the father. He was often drugged, and out of it, and said he was impotent too. Remember Tui said she didn't know how it got in there, so she was drugged at the time too.

He had been lashing himself over things ever since his mother died. She lashed him, and he was warped. I don't think it was about Tui. It was about nothing, like he would have told his mother, "Sorry mother, I'm a bad boy," to get her to stop.

He didn't get a search party going for months after she disappeared. It might have been because of the video showing she was still alive. Funny we never saw her mother again.

[–] slh9031 11 years ago

I think you both might be wrong. I think the father was one of the men who paid to have sex with these underage girls at one of Al's "roofie parties" at his home. He altered the DNA test because he didn't want it leading back to him and his side business. He got the kids via the coffee shop.... Tui didn't remember how the baby got there because she was drugged. I think Matt was warped by his mother and probably took a lot of the drugs he was manufacturing in his basement. He was impotent or at the very least had a hard time performing when he went on his date.

On the other hand, you could argue that he was the father of Tui's baby, that's why he lashed himself and said he was a "bad boy", also it could explain the lack of being able to "get it up" with a woman his own age. Maybe he only was aroused by young girls, making him a pedophile....

I guess the show was a bit vague and it could have been left up to interpretation by the audience. I felt pretty strongly that her baby was fathered by one of Al's businessmen friends.

[–] eggyrocks 11 years ago

If you've watched the entire series and then have come to the conclusion that Matt was the father, I really fear you.

[–] TerrorDementia 11 years ago

What about when Matt's two sons said they had seen Matt passed out in Tui's bed, with her 'rolling' or 'working' (didn't quite catch the word) on top of Matt?

[–] Elliot1976 11 years ago

Argh, IT WAS THE SEX RING AT THE END that got Tui pregnant!!! That's the whole point of the ending. Geez, some people are just thick.

[–] TerrorDementia 11 years ago

Then what the *beep* was Matt doing in Tui's bed, with her rolling all over him, that made two of his sons BELIEVE HE WAS THE FATHER OF TUI'S BABY????

I'm not saying Matt is the father, but SOMETHING was going on with Tui in Matt's bed; his own sons believed he knocked her up!

Can you definitely exclude Matt from being part of the sex ring, genius? No you can't, so can you exclude him from being the father? Again, no you cannot. Pavement flows faster than you do, that's how thick you are.

How DUMB do you have to be to not be curious what the *beep* was going on there? Matt was in Tui's bed, and she was doing something on/to Matt. But let's ignore that, because we got the simple answer at the end.

Guhhhdurrrrrr, let's forget the fact that a major character whom we are claiming is not the father was in his daughter's bad and she was doing something to him, let's also forget that his own sons think he knocked the daughter up. Let's just forget that, because we're not smart enough to look beyond the obvious twist ending the show gave us. Things like a father whose sons think knocked up his own daughter are meaningless, durrrrrrrr!

Talk about thick, dimwitted, and slow... you take the prize, dippy.

[–] tdltd7557 10 years ago

WOW TerrorDementia....you sound like such a NICE person. Geez. Take your meds and back away from the computer. I hope you feel better after your silly useless rant. What a pleasure you must be in person.

[–] TerrorDementia 10 years ago

STOP ANTAGONIZING ME!

[–] Stirchley 11 years ago

Argh, IT WAS THE SEX RING AT THE END that got Tui pregnant!!! That's the whole point of the ending. Geez, some people are just thick.

I know really! Did these posters even see the finale?

[–] candideyesontv 11 years ago

The OP makes an excellent case about Matt being the father. However, IMO I still believe that the father came from one of the sex parties and my personal belief is that it was Al and he did it on purpose to show his domination and control over Matt.

You have convinced me though that Matt was completely aware of Al's business. This would still explain why he needed to get rid of the baby because it was evidence. Remember his business relied on the fact that he was Al's partner. Without Al keeping the police away, he can't be in the drug business, at least not nearly as successfully has he has already enjoyed.

I think that he stated more than once that Tui could not be pregnant but even more importantly that 12 year olds cannot get pregnant. He was emphatic about this detail and it would be an important detail for pedophiles running such an operation. They figure they are safe from birth control.

So on one hand he probably assumed that Tui was safe from the operation because of the agreement with Al. His denial about Tui in the beginning could stem from guilt, guilt that he did nothing to protect his own daughter, guilt from trusting his business partner and guilt from being the cause of his daughter's pain. That would also explain his actions and asking for forgiveness from his dead mother. But in the end, losing his business, his identity in the community and the control he has is still more important to him then a baby born of the rape of his daughter. The child one way or another is going to be the end of him and he knows it. The daughter lives and DNA proves that she was raped by the pedo crew takes away his business and identity. And if this is the case he will go mad, is going mad because he can never have a relationship with his daughter as long as she has the baby. In his mind if the baby is gone then so is his problem. Life goes on as it did before. I personally think this makes for a more interesting and slightly less disturbing conclusion that is left ambiguous so that every one who watched the show can come to their own conclusion.

One definition of great art is that it makes you think and it makes you want to discuss the piece. By this definition alone makes the show a great piece of art.

[–] FliptFlopt 11 years ago

It is possible that Matt only thinks he is the father. The scene with the gun suggests that, but doesn't prove he really was the father.

[–] aghinem 10 years ago

But there was no semen found on April, the girl who died. The forensic guy said the rapist used a condom, so apparently the pedos were concerned about birth control (or evidence?). Which kinda argues against one of them pedos being the father of Tui's baby. It's rather ambiguous to me.

[–] kurt7825 9 years ago

its not art lol

[–] beat 10 years ago

If you've watched the entire series and then have come to the conclusion that Matt was the father, I really fear you.

this.

i'm baffled people are actually discussing this, that storyline seemed crystal clear.

[–] watchkoreanmovies 11 years ago

I also think Matt is the father
Another pointer is the fact that he had difficulty getting it up with the grown woman
He even says he needs warning or something which I interpret as he needs time to get going - which is not an issue when someone is roofied up

[–] lostsok0523-654-279444 11 years ago

Matt was impotent.

I think he self-flagellation was due to the fact that he MADE the roofie and sold it...leading to his daughter's pregnancy. He was going to kill the baby because he wanted to deny that he had inadvertently destroyed Tui's childhood (which, ironically, he didn't...she quickly became just a kid again when she was with her friends). He was trying, in his twisted way, to restore her childhood.

A clue to this pathology was his clear love of dogs...but his ability to just shoot one without batting an eye. This is also reflected in his ability to murder someone, then act indifferent to it.

Sociopaths are often deeply committed to their families. That is is the weird paradox of their disorder. BUT...they often have to normal, functional way to actually care for them. They tend to destroy what they most love.

Frankly, this is among the most nuanced portrayals of a sociopath.

Yet, in the end, HE was not the real bad guy. Fascinating when you think about it.

[–] apple325 11 years ago

While I agree this was very well done nuanced portrayel of sociopaths with Al and Matt being sociopaths.

Matt was the father of Tui's baby. He never cared about finding her until she got closer to giving birth. The baby was the secret and evidence that could put him away for rape of a minor. Even the power Al had wouldn't of been able to protect him from that. He was soooo concerned about finding Tui but when he did he left her behind and was going to either leave the baby to die from exposure or shoot it and bury it somewhere he wouldn't be found. It wasn't about giving tui back her childhood he wanted the child eliminated.

While Matt had ED he might of just had an issue having sex with an adult female. Also with all the kids he had running around he didn't have that much of a problem getting it up with young women.

Al and the rest of the child sex ring used condoms to protect themselves from being caught. Also, when he drugged tui she was on the couch fully clothed he wasn't letting her be raped by the men. So there is a chance when she graduated and barista night he kept her out of it due to his relationship with Matt.

While Tui was either too afraid it was Matt or blocked it out it was him. She was also 12 she might not of understood that sex can lead to children at that point.

While part of the realism of the show (yes some things were a big stretch) not everything is tied together in a neat bow and served up to the audience.

While there are raised questions about the DNA test I belive it was accurate. Only because the pathologist would of gotten Matt's DNA and sent it to the lab not giving Al an opportunity to tamper with it. Plus in the world of soap operas DNA gets tampered in this semi real life situation a soap opera scenario wouldn't apply.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] sara-34 8 years ago

At the same time, Tui either hated or feared Matt. In one of the only scenes we see of them together, she points a gun at him. Then she runs away and lives in the woods for months rather than go home where Matt is. Something was going on there. I don't know if it was rape, but it was something.

[–] LivK 10 years ago

Completely agree Lostsok ! I didn't realize he was a sociopath but you make a very good point !

However, sociopath or not, his behaviour shows he is indeed not the dad. It's unfathomable a kid gets pregnant, as he says when he rants in the end : "kids don't get pregnant, they can't". The baby is like a freak of nature to him, he's pointing the gun at it in order to restore Tui's childhood. No baby= nothing happened to ruin Tui's life.

The fact he's a sociopath clears everything so thanx, because I found myself going a bit nuts watching this show lol.
The stupidity and level of nonsensical acts of some characters was just too mind blowing. Then I just thought, that's what small towns and drugs do to you then, eh ? Everybody becomes dumb and dumber.

Let's not forget Al the psychopath who also runs a circus. Nobody trusts the police to take care of them so they all just turn to the sociopath of the town. What a great recipe for a *beep* How bad has it got to be for a guy like Matt to end up looking like the good guy ?

Anyways, regarding Matt's two sons who say they saw Matt passed out and Tui walking over him : am I the only one who seems to think this was a dream they had ? Trying to say "dad, let it go she's dead, she told us in a dream..."
That's how I understood it at the time anyways. Since there is the whole demon story with the lake and it being NZ with a lot of mystic.

What do you guys think ? That's the one question that remains for me...

[–] catbookss 8 years ago

And yet Matt knew from the first episode that Tui was pregnant. He said so in the scene when she had the rifle pointed at him, so yes he knew 12 year olds could get pregnant.

He also said something like "No more babies!" in one of the early episodes, and he made quite a stink about refusing to give a DNA sample at the roadblock. If he wasn't the father of Tui's child, why would he care? This was when he went all out, after months of the child he supposedly loved, being out alone in the elements, pregnant, having made no effort to find her up until the point her baby -- the evidence -- was due.

The OP is right, he showed no signs of being glad or relived to have found his child; his focus was entirely on getting and killing the baby. Alone. No witnesses.

What would the chances be of two adult sons just happening to have the same exact dream about the father being passed out on their little sister's bed, with her walking on his back?

This is a great thread. I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

[–] heat_like_burning 11 years ago

I think the show makes its pretty clear that Tui was impregnated at sex parties. She was knocked out and raped. Possibly by Al. Al faked the test to clear his own name.

What would be the whole point of the sex parties plot line otherwise?

The whole idea around the show is that Matt is such a monster and so abusive that you think he's the father the whole time until the end when the twist is revealed.

"When lightning strikes the sea, why don't all the fish die?"

[–] KFL 9 years ago

Concur. Al had no control over what happened in his basement; he took the johns' money, then got drunk, judging from the final scene.

What I found interesting was the way the significance of the cafe suddenly changes. It appears in the first or second episode and then several times more, with all the kids' photos (and names, on the "certificates") on the wall.

Looks like a great way to get wayward kids rehabilitated. In fact, though, it seems to have been set up by Al as a means of publicly advertising his "wares". I could see him telling his clients to drop by the cafe, have a look at the pics on the wall, and pick out someone they liked. In the final episode, Al is shown preparing more "certificates" briefly; this is his hook to get the kids to his place, and give them spiked drinks.

Thus what appears to be innocent and decent through the series, suddenly takes on a monstrous significance. I was gobsmacked.

Frank Pierce: Taking credit when things go right doesn't work the other way.

[–] Elliot1976 11 years ago

Your whole post just proves you didn't get the whole show.

Basically the story is: A 12 year old girl gets pregnant. She hides in the woods which makes everyone think Matt did it. At the end we find out that Al organized child drugging and raping which reveals what actually happened.

[–] margotlorena 11 years ago

well, tui did say she didn't know how the baby got there. If she was unconscious, she really never knew. it wasnt her trying to lie about it or blocking her father raping her, she really didnt know it.

[–] Galtwotwenty 9 years ago

In the very first episode, when Tui is taken home after trying to kill herself in the lake, we see her hiding from her dad under the bed with a shotgun.

When Matt finds her, she aims it at him.

Matt says: "

"What were you doing in the lake? Who were you trying to kill? Yourself or the baby , you idiot? You didn't talk, that was good.."

So, he understood that she was pregnant, and also seemed to know how she got that way... and why would Tui be aiming a shotgun at him if he was all fatherly and stuff?

The question I have is, what in the heck is the story with her mom? Why did she not have the girl in the first place? Like Johnno said when Robin found him with his mom at the shop: "why didn't you bring her to her mother?"

[–] voxzee 8 years ago

Tui aims the shotgun b/c she knows Matt will not let her have a baby. That is why she left for the woods. And that is why she had to kill him - he was going to kill the baby.
Matt did not she was pregnant until she was found in the lake.

[–] bubba_blais 9 years ago

no.

lots of details are purposefully ambiguous, but as many have already stated he had a monologue describing his near impotence. this makes him probably the least likely candidate of the main male characters.

the DNA tests were falsfied. there is a reason al had tests for johnno as well. after hearing about the news that robyn is his sister, he most likely went for a DNA test himself to double check. then all al had to do would be to switch the samples or something along those lines, and you would get johnnos DNA acting as the baby's which leads to a match. and al telling them johnno isn't in fact Matt's sun is a bonus for him, an evil way to get back at robyn for not getting with him etc (regardless that he already raped her..)

there is no, "he is the father", but its pretty clear it's a result of the pedophile ring al is running. that's kind of the whole point narratively. the show was incredibly rich and full of depth elsewhere but the climax was this revelation. al was covering his ass. i mean, the fact that we get this info about matt being the father from al himself should be evidence enough. he ran a pedophile ring involving tui and jaime. end of story..

incredible show. one of the best.

[–] Galtwotwenty 9 years ago

ok bubba, I like your explanation but you didn't explain the scene in episode 1 where Tui aims a shotgun at Matt. Explain that dialogue from him..

The other thing is this - yes, he was impotent so he said, but it was ambiguous if he had sex with that woman.. it kind of left it open that maybe she was able to get him revved up. ( sorry, couldn't think of a way to say it that wasn't crude)

And I don't know but they say rape is a crime of violence not sex. So, a guy could be impotent when the woman is willing but quite able in that department when she is a victim while he is exerting his power over her.

[–] firstwinsgop-1 9 years ago

ok bubba, I like your explanation but you didn't explain the scene in episode 1 where Tui aims a shotgun at Matt. Explain that dialogue from him..

Tui is Matt's daughter. She's a violent, quick tempered little shyt just like he is. She knew he was pissed about her getting pregnant, and was probably scared he might slap her or something. So it made perfect sense that she would point a gun at him when he came up to yell at her. Him congratulating her for not talking is of no significance if you look at within the context of their family. The importance of not talking to the police, ever, under any circumstances would have been drilled in to every member of that family from an early age. That a 12 year old was able to hold up to questioning would be a feat worthy of praise.

[–] Galtwotwenty 9 years ago

That wasn't the question I had about that dialogue.. Bubba said this previously:

"there is no, "he is the father", but its pretty clear it's a result of the pedophile ring al is running. that's kind of the whole point narratively. the show was incredibly rich and full of depth elsewhere but the climax was this revelation. al was covering his ass."

And that is why I asked him to explain the scene and dialogue in episode 1 when Tui aimed a shotgun at him..

Everyone says that Matt didn't know or believe she was pregnant but that line:

"who were you trying to kill, the baby or yourself, you idiot" says that he knew she was pregnant. I do like your answer though about why he said "you didn't talk, which was good"...

Thanks