Can ANY pro-trans user define a female without resorting to the circular "someone who identifes" non-answer... - What Is a Woman? (2022) Discussion

[–] sslssg (34329) 2 years ago

Can you define what a trans person is then? Without using the words "someone who identifies?"

Are they mentally ill? Is it something physiological? Is it something biological? I mean as far as I know neither the scientific community, nor the medical community can answer these questions. If it is a sort of illness what is the treatment? Right now the medical community says that transitioning is the treatment. Granted not everyone, but that seems to be a majority of providers. So...what is your solution? What is your background or knowledge on the subject?

I'm not an expert. I know some trans people. I know that they were born a different sex than how they want to present themselves to the world. They know that too. So when someone asks a question like "what is a woman?" there are simple and complex answers. The simple one is that a woman is someone who has xy chromosomes. Great. What does that mean though? This is where it gets complex. Where do comments like "your not a 'real' man" or "that's not very womanly" come from if there isn't a separate social construct with gender?

I am female. I was born female and I identify that way. But who I am as a person, and as a woman is so much more than what I have between my legs. That's the same for everyone. Including trans-people. So until medical science can explain what is happening and decide on a proper way to treat/cure/help these individuals I will continue to be supportive of them even if I can't understand. It can't be easy feeling like everything in your life is wrong.

I haven't met a single trans person who thinks they are the same as someone who is CIS gendered. They know and understand that they are different. Now, I'm sure that there are those out there who may have other thoughts on that, but the ones who I have met know who they want to be and are doing there best to live that way. One of them you wouldn't even know. So, really, what business is it of anyone else?

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

"This is where it gets complex. Where do comments like "your not a 'real' man" or "that's not very womanly" come from if there isn't a separate social construct with gender?" but it's NOT separate.

No one, and I mean NO ONE is the same as any other person. I'm NOT the same as Arnold, does that make me a woman? NO.

In order to say "I'm a woman" you DO NEED to define the term. Otherwise is ... useless.

And no, the social construct on what a woman is is NOT what a woman is. Social constructs around the fact "woman" can change, that doesn't mean that the fact changes. You can be a woman without adhering to ANY social constructs around the concept of a woman. Even if you adhere to the social concepts of woman while being a man ... that still doesn't make you a woman. And it's funny that the trans (the majority) don't try to break the stereotypes, they pretty much adhere to the social constructs of the other gender.

A tomboy is very masculine but it's NOT a man. Some of the trans are less feminine than a tomboy and still they pretend to be a woman.

A cat doesn't become a dog just because it dreams to be a dog.

reply

[–] sslssg (34329) 2 years ago

But what is a woman or a man for that matter if it's not the social constructs placed on us.

Even if you adhere to the social concepts of woman while being a man ... that still doesn't make you a woman.

No, but it can make you a trans-woman. Or a trans-man. Like I said, I have not met a trans person who doesn't recognize that they are trans. I have not met a trans woman who says they are the same thing as a woman who was assigned female at birth. I'm not saying that there aren't those out there. I just haven't encountered them. You also say that people don't have to adhere to the social construct. I agree. But there will still be backlash. I mean just go to any younger actors page. You will see soy boy, you will see that they aren't real men. This is what I'm talking about. Society has versions of men and women that not all people fit into. So what is a woman? What is a man? There are complexities even if you don't want to admit it.

A tomboy is not the same thing as a trans person.

I keep hearing here that trans people are mentally ill. I don't know that. I don't know what made them different. I fully admit they are different. The ones I know fully admit they are different. My reason for supporting them is that I have no clue what they are experiencing. Not one bit. I've seen a person struggle for over 30 years trying to be something that they weren't. The absolute misery. If wearing a dress, make-up, and being referred to as 'she' can make that person have happiness again, it's really a simple thing for me to do to accept them for who they are. And that's trans.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

"But what is a woman or a man for that matter if it's not the social constructs placed on us."

It's NOT the social construct. Those have changed in the history. Men wearing skirts and wigs are still men.

Changing the social construct doesn't change the underlying concept. If I like to cook and the color pink that doesn't make me a woman just because those are associated with women.

" What is a man? There are complexities even if you don't want to admit it." simple: an adult human male.

"Society has versions of men and women that not all people fit into." - no, those are NOT versions of men and women but versions of gender roles.

"A tomboy is not the same thing as a trans person."

EXACTLY!!! So how do you decide that the tomboy is a trans or not??? Same characteristics, same adopted gender roles, but one says "I'm a woman" and the other "I'm a man"???

WHERE is the difference? Just the self identify? That's MORONIC.

"I keep hearing here that trans people are mentally ill." it has been considered a mental illness for most of our history.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532313/

"Patients with this condition should be provided with psychiatric support."

"apotemnophilia: body integrity or amputee identity disorder, is defined as the desire for amputation of a healthy limb" - would you argue in this case that the best outcome is to amputate that limb???? Because the patient feels he want to not have it anymore? Can you see how stupid is that idea that "feelings" are above reality???

reply

[–] sslssg (34329) 2 years ago

You are not willing to accept that there is a difference between gender and biological sex. We've been on this merry go round before. Really it's all semantics. Just treat trans people like you would anyone else, and we're good.

it has been considered a mental illness for most of our history.

Yeah, it might not be the best idea to use the what we used to do historically when speaking to a woman. Let's just look at hysteria.

I will say this time and time again. I'm not a doctor. I have looked into what doctors are recommending as a treatment for whatever transgenderism is. Most say that treatment is transitioning. If a new treatment is found, I'm sure a lot of trans people would appreciate that. I'm only going by the people I know, but they just want to be in a body they don't despise, and that doesn't even mean chopping anything off.

Also, apotemnophilia is not the same as gender dysphoria, and not all trans people have gender dysphoria.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

"You are not willing to accept that there is a difference between gender and biological sex. We've been on this merry go round before. Really it's all semantics. "

Because it's not.

And as proof you cannot even spot the difference. What exactly makes a woman ... a woman? And HOW is that different from a female.

And stop bringing gender roles and stereotypes into conversation because we established that those are NOT what defines a woman. Someone can adhere to ANY of those without changing their gender.

So, WHAT exactly is what makes a woman a ... woman???

"Also, apotemnophilia is not the same as gender dysphoria," of course i's not. But it's close, when you chop off bits of your body because ... feelings ...

reply

[–] sslssg (34329) 2 years ago

we established that those are NOT what defines a woman.

Actually that was you, not me.

So, WHAT exactly is what makes a woman a ... woman???

Semantics. If you can't understand that, then I don't know how to explain it. Why do people say "Let's make you a man" "Be a man!" "It was a time when men were men."

So how do you be a man?

This is rhetorical because I'm done here.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

"Actually that was you, not me."

No, we both did. Or we can do it now:

Is wearing a dress what makes an individual a woman?
Is liking pink?
Is it cooking?

"Semantics. If you can't understand that, then I don't know how to explain it." I know you don't know how to explain it because you have no explanation. A precise explanation.

And what's worse: most transgenders go through reassignment surgery in a desperate attempt to BIOLOGICALLY look like the opposite gender/sex. Not just the social constructs but BIOLOGICAL. Cutting/adding boobs/ass. Cutting/adding sexual organs. Going through hormones therapy to mimic the desired SEX (biology). And still idiots argue that there is no connection between sex and gender.

reply

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

First off, to the OP, I am not ‘left’ but I do support the LBGTQ community. If you cannot reconcile with that, then I am afraid nothing I or anyone else writes will satisfy you. I suggest we do less labeling or judging of others and their ideas and more listening.

To start, I think there is a bit of confusion over sex and gender here. Sex is the biological determination given to someone at birth. It cannot be changed at a genetic level (as far as I know), although there are processes for altering it physically and legally after birth. This is what BlackMass and asom are writing about, I think.

Gender is the social construct that tends to accompany the biological classification of the person. So a biological female is expected to take up certain roles within society to be classified as a ‘woman.’ If they don’t they are usually criticized; the same goes for men. Gender can and is much more flexible than sex and will change over time, it always has.

People tend to get upset when someone doesn’t agree to the expectations of a certain, or any, gender. Why? Maybe because they do not want to try and understand people who live and view life through non-traditional lenses. Maybe they do not understand that pressure for a person to conform to a certain gender can be difficult because, not everyone is the same.

It’s not a cat dreaming to be a dog. It’s a female being told how to act in our society. The same goes with males. Your sex does not need to determine who you are, how you talk, interact with others, or what you can do in life.

So, defining what a ‘woman’ is will be much more difficult to do, just as it would be difficult to define what a ‘man’ is. These terms of social identification have undergone substantial changes over the past few decades. A woman is different from a female and a man is different from a male. These terms (woman and man) have been and will continue to be in flux. I hope this provides some insight into how others view the subject

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

"Gender is the social construct that tends to accompany the biological classification of the person. So a biological female is expected to take up certain roles within society to be classified as a ‘woman.’ If they don’t they are usually criticized; the same goes for men. Gender can and is much more flexible than sex and will change over time, it always has."

Nope, it is not. Gender is a synonym to sex. You are thinking about gender roles. which ARE social constructs.

So you can take ANY gender roles you want without changing your gender. A lot of women don't adhere to the traditional gender roles but guess what: THEY ARE STILL WOMEN.

Same for men. I cannot say "you like pink therefore you're a woman".

"So, defining what a ‘woman’ is will be much more difficult to do, just as it would be difficult to define what a ‘man’ is. These terms of social identification have undergone substantial changes over the past few decades. A woman is different from a female and a man is different from a male. These terms (woman and man) have been and will continue to be in flux. I hope this provides some insight into how others view the subject"

Totally not true.

Women/men sports ARE NOT divided based on "do you like to cook and like the color pink, you are a woman" (social constructs) but strictly on biological differences.

Same for gendered bathrooms. That's why we have urinals in men's bathrooms and don't have any in the women's bathrooms. Because fucking biology.

"It’s a female being told how to act in our society. The same goes with males. Your sex does not need to determine who you are, how you talk, interact with others, or what you can do in life."

And it doesn't. But that doesn't change the gender. A tomboy that is a car's mechanic, drinks beer, dresses as the boys and hangs out with the boys IS STILL A WOMAN. Although it acts nothing like society tells her to act IT IS STILL a woman.

You might even have someone a lot less masculine than the tomboy that would say "I'm a man" - well, NO. Self identifying as something doesn't make it so. Just like the cat dreaming that it's a dog. Even if you teach it to bark ...

https://nypost.com/2023/01/26/male-rapist-isla-bryson-transitions-before-trial-sent-to-all-female-prison/

https://nypost.com/2023/01/26/male-rapist-isla-bryson-transitions-before-trial-sent-to-all-female-prison/

https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/trans-prisoner-who-impregnated-two-women-is-psychopath/

Yeah, makes sense "I'm a woman just because I say I'm a woman" ...

reply

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

Ok, so I am going to give a few examples and then respond to the rest of your post my definition of gender and sex is the same as:

-Gender as defined by World Health Organization
-Gender as defined by the United Nations and the Security Council
-Gender as included in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court

There are many more examples I could give but both time and space won’t allow for that. That being said, my understanding is based off of definitions creased and endorsed by a vast majority of the countries worldwide. It’s included as both the legal and social definition of gender and sex being promoted at both the national and international level. While the term gender identity may have a similar definition, the two are not mutually exclusive. If you still disagree with the definitions of sex and gender I provided then I really do not know what to say.

This second bit about sports and bathrooms being separated by sex, there are both privacy issues and dangers associated with, especially the latter. But that is not really relevant when talking about gender.

What I wrote was that society tells people how they should act based on the biological orientation, or sex. It’s not asking, we tell females they need to act in a certain way. Males are told the same too. Someone’s sex does not need to lock in a persons own personal growth or personality. So you understood the opposite of what I was writing above with your comments about colors. I hope that helps a bit.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

"What I wrote was that society tells people how they should act based on the biological orientation, or sex. It’s not asking, we tell females they need to act in a certain way. Males are told the same too. Someone’s sex does not need to lock in a persons own personal growth or personality. So you understood the opposite of what I was writing above with your comments about colors. I hope that helps a bit."

Yeah, but that DOESN'T change a female/woman into a male/man if he doesn't act in that certain way. It still IS a man or a woman.

"This second bit about sports and bathrooms being separated by sex, there are both privacy issues and dangers associated with, especially the latter. But that is not really relevant when talking about gender."

It is VERY relevant because they are called men/women sports/bathrooms but they are separated by sex, by the biological differences.

Those definitions are NOT clear. They conflate gender with gender norms and roles.

So I'm asking YOU: when does a man become a woman? And I want a precise definition. How many gender roles must a man not adhere to to be considered a woman? And which are those?

If you say "a man is a woman because he says so" then you deny all you said before because well, there are NO gender roles/norms associated with that. It's just ... a wish.

So if gender is a social construct (and that means society decides) then the individual CANNOT say "I'm a woman". Capisci?

reply

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

A female can absolutely say “I am a man.” A male can absolutely say “I am a woman.” Female= sex while woman= gender. Male= sex while Man= gender. The struggle with a lot of people is that they think female and woman or male and man are the same thing. They are not.

The term ‘Social construct’ does not means society decides, it is an idea established and perpetuated by society. Just as you are confusing female with woman and male with man in your post.

Society has believed that a persons sex should define how they act for a long time. Now we are realizing that this stifles individuality, personal growth and can cause harm on, especially youths.

I am not going to answer the rest of your post because I don’t think you are trying to understand, rather trying to argue. Take some time, do some reading (you have three easily searchable examples from my previous post),critique yourself and then reflect. If you still disagree then you disagree. But denying clear cut definitions that are widespread with sufficient rationale to them is not the best way to understand something in my opinion.

Signing off. No more replies from me on this topic. I do not think it is a productive use of my time anymore.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

‘The term ‘Social construct’ does not means society decides, it is an idea established and perpetuated by society.’

Or, cognitive dissonance, dishonestly or plain stupidity. Your choice.

And of course if I ask you “what have society established that is a woman” you will still have no answer.

And of course you don’t what to answer what’s a woman. If a male (sic) can say “I’m a woman” the question is easy: ok, what the fuck do you mean by that? You cannot define what you are then you are NOT that.

No, male= man, female-woman, by definition. Through all humanity history. Your definitions are NOT clear cut but word salads.

And the salad is worse when they allow transgender athletes to run in women’s sports although those are based on BIOLOGICAL differences driven by hormones and sex. They literally accept that women are females (otherwise it would be called female sports) and then change their minds. Cognitive dissonance, just like you.

Bye.

reply

[–] Iffy762 (1334) 2 years ago

This is pointless. You're going to get back a lot of word salad that pretends to be scientifically literate even though in reality it is essentially nonsense. The scientific establishment is not going to back you up because at heart they are cowards and their leftism takes precedence over their scientific integrity. I cannot tell you the number of people who have earnestly told me that sex development is too complicated to know whether any individual is male or female. Scientists and doctors writing papers full of convoluted "logic" to rationalize permanently mutilating young people who have not even reached physical maturity yet (let alone psychological maturity). People actually swallow this claptrap. How can you argue with them? It's like trying to empty the ocean with a sieve.

reply

[–] WandererFromYs (2324) 2 years ago

I haven't met a single trans person who thinks they are the same as someone who is CIS gendered. They know and understand that they are different. Now, I'm sure that there are those out there who may have other thoughts on that, but the ones who I have met know who they want to be and are doing there best to live that way. One of them you wouldn't even know. So, really, what business is it of anyone else?

It’s everyone else’s business because 3rd party perception plays a huge role in their self worth. If they were simply living their lives they way they want to, it shouldn’t matter what anybody else thinks. But that is the crux of a lot of transgender issues. They require other people to go along with it in order to validate them. But if you don’t, they claim that you are causing them harm.

And no it’s not difficult to be kind and treat someone the way they want to be treated. But when you try and force and bully people into it, that when they start fighting back.

You said you don’t know any trans people that think they are the same as cis people, but this is one of issues. If you differentiate, you are bigot causing them harm, and I don’t think this is right way to get people to go along with this.

reply

[–] sslssg (34329) 2 years ago

Has a trans person bullied you?

reply

[–] WandererFromYs (2324) 2 years ago

Compelled speech, and Bullying are the reason that “What is a woman” is a checkmate question. Everyone already knows the answer, they are just too scared of getting cancelled to answer honestly. That’s not how you oI have an open dialogue, that is bullying people in to silence.

reply

[–] sslssg (34329) 2 years ago

Again, have you ever been compelled or bullied by a trans person? Not social media, an actual trans person.

Are we not having an open dialogue?

Have I called you any names?

I think What is a woman is a stupid question because there really isn't an answer to satisfy anyone. We aren't discussing the scientific, biological answer. I am a woman, and there are times when I question what that is. Not because I'm confused about my identity, or my gender, or even my sexuality. I question it because I don't always follow how I'm supposed to behave. I am not a mother. I've been told that makes me less of a woman. So yeah. I don't think it's an easy question to answer. If you asked me what a biological female is, that's easy.

I won't debate with you what trans people are, and should they or should they not exist. That is not something that I can change anyone's mind on, because I truly do not understand what a trans person is feeling or has felt to make them want to be the way they are. Again I will say that if science can figure it out, and see if it is something that needs treatment, then great. Let's get these people treatment. If not, I will continue to respect them as humans and treat them with kindness.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

It is an answer to satisfy everyone.

YES, the biological answer is the correct answer.

There are plenty of examples with trans people making a fuss for being "miss-gendered".

Remember "IT'S MAAM"!??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgiOjhkiuhw

Yes, I would consider this bullying ...

reply

[–] WandererFromYs (2324) 2 years ago

She came back and wrote a dis track about GameStop and the event. I’m not joking.

https://youtu.be/SFaziFndC_c

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK???

And some people say it's not a mental illness? Hahahahahaha. Here's your proof!

But I have to admit, the dude can rap!

reply

[–] BlackMass (1026) 2 years ago

"Are they mentally ill?"

Yes. Once upon a time, men who believed they were women were diagnosed as having gender identity disorder. The condition has been renamed (gender dysphoria, no longer a "disorder"), mainstreamed and celebrated over the last 10 or so years, although nobody in support of this change seems to be able to supply a cogent definition of what a woman or man even is.

reply

[–] sslssg (34329) 2 years ago

According to those in the medical profession, not all trans people have gender dysphoria. Are you in the scientific or the medical community?

We have given you the definition of what biological male and females are. Srgwuggles explained better than I did the difference between biological sex and gender.

I've also noticed that you have not offered up your definition of a woman. Or explained any differences between sex and gender, or why you don't see a difference between sex and gender. I think that the explanations given here have been cogent.

I guess my response to you is that if you believe that a trans person is mentally ill, and the medical community says that they have no treatment for them other than for those to live as the gender they want, whether they medically transition or not, what is your expertise to counter that? But I'm not here to advocate for trans people. I'm just here to tell you that what the word woman means to me is more than than sex organs. If you want to ask me what a female is, that is sex organs or chromosomes.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

"We have given you the definition of what biological male and females are. Srgwuggles explained better than I did the difference between biological sex and gender."

There is no difference. You both conflate gender roles with gender.

" I'm just here to tell you that what the word woman means to me is more than than sex organs."

Yes, it's MORE, but IT INCLUDES the sex organs. It's ON TOP of the biology, not AGAINST the biology as you think it is.

reply

[–] brux (14730) 2 years ago

Seems like some people want society to be very regimented and restrictive and some people think its a good idea to let people be who they want to be.

The restrictive people usually want to do it for some kind of political gain or to make other people miserable ... which is what makes them happy. People who need to tell others what to do are a lot more dangerous than someone who is working to discover how to express their indentity.

reply

[–] RockAway (1601) 2 years ago

I haven't found anyone that asks these kinds of questions that ACTUALLY wants to know.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

I actually WANT to know.

What's a woman? I don't wanna go tonight in the club and pick up a chick with a dick.

reply

[–] Mustang (5447) 2 years ago

A Trans person is a social construct and the definition changes and can incorporate many things depending on which way the wind is blowing.

Oh, sorry you asked for a Pro Trans supporter.

reply

[–] CarterBlunt (1401) 2 years ago

Here, let's answer this question from the perspective of a wokie twitter bot, without sounding like a moron.

A woman is someone who identifies with feminine attributes. There are some disputes and misunderstandings about what it means to be "feminine" in today's western society, which explains why it can often mean different things to different people. It's a good idea to respect the way a person wishes to be identified, within reason. Sometimes they are trolling, such as claiming to be black, while sucking at basketball. Or claiming to be a Rastafarian, but all they do is smoke weed all day and listen to reggae. Or claiming to be a dog, but don't kick dirt behind them after taking a shit at the park. Pay no respect to these degenerates.

reply

[–] asom (6865) 2 years ago

They had us in the first half, I have to admit.

reply

[–] arcticdragon (531) 2 years ago

I got a question. "A woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" is undeniably a circular definition. Out of all the trans advocates who still keep using it, have even one of them ever denied it, or defended it, as a circular definition? Have they ever proven that it's NOT circular, or that even if it is, it's still somehow sufficient?

reply

[–] brux (14730) 2 years ago

You mention Carl Sagan ... what does Neil DeGrasse Tyson have to say about this issue?

reply

[–] BlackMass (1026) 2 years ago

I saw Tyson stuttering, scrambling, and tripping all over himself opposite Shapiro. I was an admirer before that. Much too embarrassing to ever watch again.

reply

[–] congratsihateyou (3) a year ago

I think the issue here is that pro-trans people see a difference between man/woman and male/female. Where man/woman refers to "gender" and male/female refers to "sex". Gender is a made up term from the 70s and refers to things like gender roles in society. Gender can basically be whatever you want it to be, cause it is an (observed) idea, and not a factual statement like sex is. Being a woman or a man is a reality, not an identity; but this is not how pro-trans people think, which means that when you argue with them you are both already arguing in a different reality.

You will find a lot of languages around the world who do not have a word for "gender". This is why a lot of (normal) people see the trans movement for what it is: extremely misogynistic (or misandrist, but i would argue not as much). The trans movement is basically saying that when you alter yourself in a certain way and adopt certain behaviors you too can become the other gender, because again, gender is just a "social construct". This is extremely harmful for both men and women in society, and especially young boys and girls. A girl with boyish interests is NOT a man, and vice versa. A woman with short hair is NOT a man, and a man with long hair is NOT a woman. The trans agenda wants to make you believe otherwise tho. This is an extremely toxic way of thinking, and if anything they are enforcing gender roles harder than most incels do.

I think that's why most people fail to properly have a discussion with trans-activists because most people see male/man and female/woman as synonymous. Whereas pro-trans people see a difference, that's why you rarely hear them use terms as "male" or "female" because it is rooted in reality; gender is just made up.

reply

[–] Satan2016 (25576) a year ago

Gender was originally a feature of language. In many European languages all thing have gender.
It think the US used gender instead of sex, which had a double meaning, because it's a Puritan nation. Then the feminists culturally appropriated the word!

reply