That's what they get though. They rushed too much to copy Marvel, and everything ends up fragmented and disconnected like so. So some of the better movies can't even count as part of the DCEU, like this and Joker
shareIt's Joss Whedon's fault. There's no excuse for what he did to Justice League.
shareI think it’s Warner Bros fault ultimately. They let Zack Snyder have full control of making a shared cinematic universe and for his second film that’s a prelude to Justice league what does he do? Merge the stories of The Dark Knight Returns with the Death of Superman?
Killing off Superman right before Justice League was awful decision making, but ultimately Warner Bros have no one to blame but themselves for giving Snyder the go ahead to do it.
Warner Bros also mandated Justice League be no more than 2 hours long to offset some of the complaints that BvS was too long. So Snyder’s 4 hour cut was never going to get a cinema release unless they split it into two films.
Basically they needed a Kevin Feige type producer to oversee everything from the start but instead they put Zack Snyder in charge which is a bit daft after the mixed reviews of Man of Steel, wasn’t exactly the critical acclaim Iron Man had to launch a cinematic universe off the back of.
Pretty much this. Kevin Tsujihara did a lot of damage before he got the boot. Walter Hamada is a bit better but word is he doesn't have a clue about DC comics.
shareYeah.
I had a bad feeling even as far back as comic con 2013 when Zack Snyder had Harry Lennix read Batman’s ‘I want you to remember, Clark…’ line from The Dark Knight Returns.
Initially I was like ‘Wow, we’re going to see Batman fight Superman!’ but then I was like ‘wait a minute, already?’
It’d be like if Marvel made Captain America Civil War a sequel to Iron Man. Stories like that need to be adapted much further along into a shared cinematic universe just so we’re emotionally invested in these characters when they fight.
When really a Batman solo film and then a Batman & Superman team up film would have been a better way to go.
They honestly could had done a Batman movie just to get people used to Affleck before BVS came out. (if it was upt to me, it'd be a more modest production with a budget similar to the 1st Deadpool or John Wick)
Looking back, it is surprising how they allowed a 3 year gap between MOS and BVS. That's a long time to wait now considering how quickly these shared universe sequels get churned out. Or at least should be.
I think every idea was born out of how Warner Bros could make the most money in the shortest time.
Man of Steel was David S. Goyer’s idea and was pitched to Warner Bros by Christopher Nolan, I’m guessing with the idea to make a Superman trilogy in the ‘grounded in reality’ style that Nolan used for his Batman trilogy.
Warner Bros themselves even said they had no plans for a shared cinematic universe. Then in 2012 The Avengers set numerous box office records and became the third highest grossing film of all time at the time of its release.
They basically saw that box office success and decided to use Man of Steel as a starting point for a shared cinematic universe only they’d just do whatever to get to Justice League which in the end didn’t even make half of what The Avengers or Age of Ultron made at the worldwide box office.
Just goes to show that you can have the rights to these beloved characters but if you don’t make good films it’s going to massively impact your box office takings.
Warner Bros is no different than any other studio. Disney ran into the same problems with the Star Wars trilogy. Universal is dealing with it in the Jurassic World franchise. Fox dealt with it with X-Men, Wolverine spin-offs and, ugh, Fantastic Four.
Yes, Feige is the difference, but it took years to get there. Favreau landed it with Iron Man, but Iron Man 2, Thor and Captain America were all just meh. Then they landed the big one with Avengers. After that, they went back to meh with Iron Man 3 and Dark World. It really wasn't until 2014 that Marvel found its groove outside of the big team up. But then they went back to meh with Age of Ultron thanks to Whedon insisting he knew what was best.
Pretty much the same thing happened with JL. Yeah, WB messed up with the two-hour limit crap, but there was no runtime that would've saved the Josstice League.
I think it comes down to sticking with it over time. Like with how Feige sent Marvel on the path for greatness, which Filoni and Favreau are now doing with Star Wars.
If Warner Bros stuck it out with Snyder, it's very possible he too would've found his groove like Feige did. Before you clean up the place, you gotta get dirty.
Yeah that’s a good point.
The thing with Kevin Feige for me is he’s yet to drop the ball on where it counts. Age of Ultron was meh but it didn’t really matter as a year later Captain America: Civil War landed really well with critics and audiences and got everyone excited for the next two Avengers films from the Russo Brothers.
The DCEU started out with Man of Steel which got mixed reviews, then Batman v Superman got mostly negative reviews. This then looked even worse when Civil War released to critical acclaim and made a few hundred million more at the worldwide box office.
For me the only thing that could save any version of Justice League that would come after BvS would have been to have a solo Cyborg, Aquaman and Flash film before that came out.
First Avenger, Thor, The Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2 weren’t great but they weren’t bad either and audiences definitely liked these characters enough that they wanted to see a film with them all in together.
With both Man of Steel and BvS I didn’t particularly like either iteration of two of DC’s greatest superheroes. I was even reading stuff online in defence of it that you’re not supposed to like them because they’re yet to become the heroes we know them to be which just seemed like apologists defending crappy writing to me.
Maybe Snyder could have found his groove with DC but from both Man of Steel and Batman v Superman he showed me nothing of why both these characters are two of the greatest comic book superheroes ever created.
Not to discredit Feige, but I'd be willing to bet the DCEU could do a helluva lot with the Russos, Markus and McFeely.
Those four have been Feige's rock when they are all working on the same project. They are a bigger powerhouse than the Nolans in my view.
Agreed, they’ve made 4 of the best MCU films and I think it would be a shame to not get them back at some point.
I’m hoping they’ll be the ones working on the MCU X-Men reboot because Marcus and McFeely are very good at juggling multiple characters and giving them all a memorable moment in their films.
The DCEU was a mess before Whedon.
shareBut that's true for so many franchises. Even Marvel didn't really find it's footing until 2014.
shareWhat? Iron Man was the first MCU film and it made gang busters.
shareTrue. It had a great start, as I wrote above, then hit a bump with the next three films. Had a huge hit with Avengers, then another dip in 2013.
shareNext three films? Incredible Hulk didn’t do well but Iron Man 2 made more money than the first while both Thor and Captain America did all right. Avengers broke records. Not every MCU has been a massive hit but the franchise has been going strong since day one.
shareSure, they all did fine money-wise, but money shouldn't be the litmus test considering BvS made more than Man of Steel and more than twice what Batman Begins made.
shareBut they also did okay in terms of popularity with both critics and audiences.
By comparison, BvS and Suicide Squad were massively unpopular with all demographics and didn’t make enough money. Man of Steel was kind of in the middle of the road. This is why the franchise was in trouble long before WB got Whedon involved.
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I like that we’re getting solo Batman films again not connected to the current mess that is the DCEU.
Besides they’ll probably use The Flash film to bring in a new Batman and Superman for a potential Justice League film in the future, unless Warner Bros are afraid to make another Justice League film after the 2017 film was a box office bomb.
I agree. With this film as a success, it would have been possible to bring Wonder Woman, Superman, the Flash, and other heroes together with Batman down the line, after each of those characters had successful movies of their own to establish them -- pretty much the way the MCU was built up gradually after Iron Man. But Warner Bros. wanted to take a short cut. As J.R.R. Tolkien observed "short cuts make long delays."
(It has to be said that Matt Reeves seems resistant to the idea of introducing superpowered heroes into this fictional world he's building, and you'll see no shortage of commentators saying that such heroes "don't work" in a grounded movie that goes for a more realistic take on Batman. Balderdash. Batman has decades worth of stories that are "grounded" and realistic in comics, and he's coexisted just fine for all those decades with his superpowered colleagues. It is harder to do, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. It just has to be written and directed well to fit Batman into the same story, and showcase what he brings to the table [e.g. his detective skills, genius intellect, wealth, technology, etc.] that his metahuman comrades don't.)
Agreed, The Batman is the best starting off point for a DC cinematic universe.
Matt Reeves I assume doesn’t want to spoil anything but I wouldn’t be surprised if his Batman eventually is brought in to a crossover with the next Superman reboot.
It’d be silly not to if the films are critically acclaimed and financially successful.
Eh the DCEU sucks, it's best to just make individual films, extended universes are starting to get old now.
shareI think if Shazam 2 and Aquaman 2 do well at the box office then they might introduce a new Batman and Superman in The Flash film and then they’ll work towards another Justice League film.
Or they’ll just carry on making individual films and leave the shared universe stuff to Marvel, it could go either way at this point.
Standalone films seems the easy route, think it's gonna be a long time if they do a shared universe again.
shareAs I said before the mixed to negative receptions of BVS and JL have killed most DCEU projects for the foreseeable future.
There was never a time when watching this movie I'm like "it's got to be Snyderverse".