These Women and their Sick Devotion to Their Men - Jodaeiye Nader az Simin (2011) Discussion

[–] dougla_1 12 years ago

I understand your disgust. I imagine you (and I) are not of that society, and you should acknowledge women/females have been conditioned to be subservient. We can agree that a child's love and bond to her/his parents is universal, and not a "sick devotion".

I believe if you scratch the surface of the family conflict in the film, you would find a quite subtle (certainly not inflammatory) subversive film against patriarchal stunted societies. Clue is the grandfather: he has alzheimers and is dying. He is a big symbol smack in the middle of the film, constantly, and he was actually a direct causality in the destruction of a new generation (the miscarriage.)

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[–] film_ophile 12 years ago

yes, good observation.

The way to have what we want
Is to share what we have.

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[–] veryhornyfox 12 years ago

I don't see that Nader emotionally abuses Simin. Why do you feel that?

(Not sure I'll be back to carry on the conversation or not, but someone else can pick it up?)

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[–] staticdynamite 11 years ago

Ok observation, but a disrespectful view of elders. The grandfather was not a 'direct causality'. Did he murder the child? No. You can say the driver of the car who hit the woman is the direct causality. In this film there is no direct causality of anything because that causality branches off into numerous others and thus a giant miscommunication avalanche takes form. You can continue to work back to the cause of everything but you will have to outside of the film and into history, the realism is perfectly achieved.

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[–] Ricc0 11 years ago

I understand your disgust. I imagine you (and I) are not of that society, and you should acknowledge women/females have been conditioned to be subservient

You're not from that society and in fact you know nothing about it. You're just brain washed by your media... directed.

Women have strong position in Iranian culture. They participate in every aspect as for men... Ministries, scientific tasks, ordinary jobs, sports... for example you find that 80% of bungee jumpers in Iran are women.
The same if taken on a social scale or in their families.. you would find a woman walking ahead and her husband behind her carrying their children.. taking them to the bathroom while she sits waiting. They buy the house requirements when they are about to get married. That means a lot in the importance of their contribution in decisions and so forth.

I really think you should read about certain cultures before throwing wrong impressions.

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[–] AssetsonFire 11 years ago

What qualifies you as an authority?

The sheer fact that you produced a bizarre statistic about bungee jumping (is that even a profession?) to illustrate the position of women sets alarm bells ringing. How many professional female swimmers are there, for example? How many women will you find modelling shampoo in TV commercials? How many jurisprudents? If women are truly liberated from prescribed duties, surely you'd have more compelling examples.

~.~
I WANT THE TRUTH! http://www.imdb.com/list/ze4EduNaQ-s/

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[–] Ricc0 11 years ago

modelling shampoo in TV commercials

It is obvious that a lot of women in some western societies have become commodities with a price tag on. Look at Hollywood's films.. women are used to evoke men lowest desires, while you rarely find this in the 50s.. mostly a kiss.

surely you'd have more compelling examples

Well, away from your silly example of TV commercials, I wrote this in my first thread:

They participate in every aspect as for men... Ministries, scientific tasks, ordinary jobs, sports...

There are ministers.. scientists.. jurists.. they work in every aspect (a lot in the nuclear facilities).. I hope these are good examples. You can search for yourself but I guess you learn what your media teaches you.

How many professional female swimmers are there

Sports? Well, well, well.. climbing Mount Everest? Racing cars? Martial arts (training alongside men...).. By the way this example about bungee jumping I took from a research done by a famous channel and it does mean something... as buying furniture means a lot too.. the women in Iran are also providers.

I'm not an authority but I accept reality as it is.. you go do you research objectively and you are free to state what you know (or think you know).

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[–] AssetsonFire 11 years ago

Sports? Sports? Well, well, well.. climbing Mount Everest? Racing cars? Martial arts (training alongside men...).. By the way this example about bungee jumping I took from a research done by a famous channel and it does mean something... as buying furniture means a lot too.. the women in Iran are also providers.

Well, well, well.. disingenuously sidestepping the question? I didn't ask about sports, I asked about swimmers. As for the buying of furniture, that's entirely in keeping with their gender assignation of homemaker.

And really, you're suggesting that advertising shampoo is a symptom of the decadent West? Does that apply to men too, or is that another double standard? Is it only a silly example because it contradicts your agenda? Does requiring a woman's family to provide a dowry qualify as classing her as a 'commodity with a price tag on'?

~.~
I WANT THE TRUTH! http://www.imdb.com/list/ze4EduNaQ-s/

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[–] Ricc0 11 years ago

Well, well, well.. disingenuously sidestepping the question? I didn't ask about sports, I asked about swimmers. As for the buying of furniture, that's entirely in keeping with their gender assignation of homemaker

Of course there are excellent swimmers.. they are into everything. You are sidestepping my answers as well as not wanting to understand how strong Iranian women are. I just gave examples to sports that are considered harder than swimming and needing more open-mindedness. I was a swimmer, I have been to gymnastics and now in martial arts....

And really, you're suggesting that advertising shampoo is a symptom of the decadent West? [] Does that apply to men too, or is that another double standard? Is it only a silly example because it contradicts your agenda? Does requiring a woman's family to provide a dowry qualify as classing her as a 'commodity with a price tag on'?

Contradicts my agenda? Iranian women are great in cinemas and in acting so being in advertisements is a silly and a very simple example. They are all over the media... As if you are detached from knowledge.

As for the furniture thing.. I will remind you again that women are in educational institutions with the same opportunities as men.. and as jurists, ministers, military commanders and soldiers (you can see the Iranian president saluting a female commander), teachers (you can see the ex-president kissing the hand of his female teacher) they are all over.

So no, it is not because of the TV commercials, but why don't you pay closer attention... Fast & Furious was being displayed on television a couple of days ago, and I saw women barely wearing any clothes in car race tracks.. blondes surrounding a man and performing sensual gestures.
Celebrities walking on the red carpet, going round and round themselves, revealing their cleavages, thighs, etc... Very impressing as it seems very liberating and showing the great potentials women have.

A lot of artificial surgeries.. to perform better in work? at home? in sports? I don't think so.

I liked the idea that Little Miss Sunshine was trying to deliver at the end.

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] pugnaciousboxer-1 11 years ago

Ricc0, ignore people like AssertonFire.

They are *beep*

He claims you have an agenda when it's obvious he has an even bigger, and less humanistic, one.

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[–] Ricc0 11 years ago

Ricc0, ignore people like AssertonFire

Thx pugnaciousboxer-1.

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[–] piggoli-imdb 10 years ago

>> Ricc0, ignore people like AssertonFire.
They are *beep*
He claims you have an agenda when it's obvious he has an even bigger, and less humanistic, one.

Right on money. I dunno if it is a "he" or "she", if it is a "he" then he must be the typical "white night" used by feminists all the time to advance their 'agenda'

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[–] AssetsonFire 9 years ago

Please (since you forgot to mention), what agenda do I have? Equal human rights, regardless of gender? Yep, what an evil man-hating puppet of The Great Satan I am.

Incidentally, a 30 second browse through piggoli-imdb's posting history reveals what type of character we're dealing with here:

🇮🇷"All young women (the pre-40 group anyways) I have met or know of are attention whores in some form or other.
That is completely natural and part of women's true nature."🇮🇷

How am I not surprised? 

~.~
There were three of us in this marriage
http://www.imdb.com/list/ze4EduNaQ-s/

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[–] pugnaciousboxer-1 9 years ago

After a year you post this *beep* I occasionally review my older posts, and you are ridiculous.

You don't know anything about the geopolitics of Iran. Do you know of how USA and UK disposed of a democratically selected leader, named Mossadegh, in 1953, or how a civilian plane (Iran Airflight 655) was shot down and how the person who shot it down was rewarded?

If anything, you should oppose Saudi Arabia. The Saudi royal family funded the 9/11 attacks, most of the attackers were Saudi or Sunnis, and so forth. The Saudi regime is the principal sponsor of Sunni extremism and of undermining the Syrian peace talks by backing hardline Salafist groups. It is the Salafist movement that has and is behind every terrorist act in the world last in the last 35 years, which Iran is fighting off. It's the the Salafists (e.g., Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan Egypt ,Turkey) and Saudi Arabians that are the biggest threat! They are funding and sponsors and supporters of the terrorist movement and all are Sunni nations. Even ISIS is a part of this coalition which Iran is fighting off.

Guess what? America is strong allies with Saudi Arabia.

At least Iran has high-ranking science and technology research:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Iran#International_rankings

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[–] AssetsonFire 9 years ago

After a year you post this *beep*

And what have you just done? I returned here because I got an email notification that brought my attention to your nonsensical, unsubstantiated comments. What's your excuse? You 'occasionally review your older posts'? And you're trying to slate me for returning here? *beep* weirdo.

If anything, you should oppose Saudi Arabia.

I do oppose Saudi. Unlike you, I have the integrity and freedom of conscience to oppose whomever I choose. I don't approach politics as though I'm supporting my local football team, I oppose all repressive governments, whether Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Satanist, secular or whatever, and Saudi and Iran are two of the of the most repressive on the planet.

It's pathetic to see Iran up in arms about Saudi human rights after executing Shia political dissidents, when Iran executes its own political dissidents for exactly the same reasons. Iran also kills its own people (children included) for adultery, for anal sex, for inter-religious sex, for drinking alcohol, for growing weed, for blasphemy and for apostasy. And now it's pathetic to see you get self righteous against me for having the nerve to criticise this government.

It is the Salafist movement that has and is behind every terrorist act in the world last in the last 35 years, which Iran is fighting off.

Hilarious, you really haven't a clue. I guess the IRA, FARC, Hizbollah, Aum Shinrikyo, ETA, the Unabomber et al. are all Salafist movements?

If I go to a Saudi/Sunni website, there will be pillocks identical to you, unthinkingly parroting anti-Shia rhetoric, incapable of seeing beyond than the ends or their own noses. You are what's wrong with the world. At least admit what you are, don't pretend you're interested in human rights.

~.~
There were three of us in this marriage
http://www.imdb.com/list/ze4EduNaQ-s/

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[–] pugnaciousboxer-1 9 years ago

It's not like USA is any better. Did you see the declassified CIA torture reports of the innocent and mentally handicapped man being tortured for potential information from his family? It's not like USA is a beacon of light. It has caused tremendous damage in the Middle East with its geopolitical chess game.

I've never implied Iran is good. I believe it will gradually reform and improve, but such a possibility is much weaker with Saudi Arabia. Right now, the Middle East is in a geopolitical chess battle between the US-UK-Israel-Saudi sphere and Russia-Iran-Syria-(maybe China) sphere. It's not that either side is better than other; both use propaganda to depict the other as being worse due to competing self-interests in the global economy.

I honestly doubt you know anything about Iran before 1979, such as how a CIA-controlled puppet dictator (Mohammad Reza Pahlavi) was installed by the UK and USA. I referenced a lot of relevant information that you glossed over, such as the injustices America has done to Iran (e.g., downing the civilian plane and then rewarding the murderer).

Anglo media likes to mention the fact Iran executes more people than Saudi Arabia, but they omit the crucial fact that most of this is due to drug smuggling. In the case of Iran that is around 95% of all executions. This is really high but Iran is used as a transit route for drugs produced in Afghanistan and also a good market for drug barons. There are 2 million heroine users in Iran.

My point is, the Gulf Arab nations are far more backwards. I gave you evidence and rankings of how Iran is at least doing very well in the sciences. Women can drive a car and get top-quality education, unlike Saudi Arabia. The 2009 Green Revolutions show Iran can be more liberalized without Western intervention to cause it to become a Libya. Western interference destroyed Libya, and Gaddafi was assassinated due to wanting to make a new standard to compete with the American dollar as the recent leaks of Hilary's emails show. The real issue with the whole world is globalized neoliberalism.

I agree Iran is messed up, but the last thing Iran needs is the severed phantom hand of the West trying to guide it to the path of better human rights. Right now the West needs Russia, Assad, and Iran to fight off ISIS given the incompetence of the Obama administration in arming unsavory, untrustworthy rebel who switch sides.

You have very good taste in film by the way. Your 251 directors list is incredible. Bergman, Tarkovsky, von Trier, Haneke, and Bresson are great directors. I recently watched uncut TV version of Bergman's Fanny and Alexander, and it was a masterpiece. You seem to be into Abbas Kiarostami, so I recommend checking out Majid Majidi also. His Children of Paradise is pretty good, but ends on a too optimistic note to me (i.e., I think the ending to Bresson's Au Hasard Balthazar is better).

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[–] leburger 11 years ago

Agreed. While I am a native European myself, I strongly believe that the Western media is heavily biased against Islamist societies, therefore, many Europeans, due to the fact that they are fed with false information, hold misguided beliefs about Islamist countries, which is very unfortunate.

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[–] Ricc0 11 years ago

Also agreed. I want to add that the Islamists that misuse Islamic teachings are the ones that are allied with many western regimes. The position of the woman differs from one Islamic society to another.

There are women that travel to Iran to study and work there.. many in the art of directing, cinematography.. etc.

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[–] punkyper 11 years ago

I don't know much about Iran. I was actually a bit surprised at how modern the everything looked, but it still seemed from the film that women were in some way under the dominion of their husbands.

When Razieh's husband (Hojjat i think) fund out that she had been taking a job without him knowing, he implied that she needed his permission for that. This may be an isolated incident, but I remember he also asked Nader why he didn't confer with him regarding Razieh's employment before hiring her, and nobody seemed to object to that accusation.

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[–] mr_mco 10 years ago

Hojjat is a low level person, an illiterate. Yes these kinds of people think and act like that but they are n't whole society but a few percent of them, and you can't change their mind, they call it honor and have high respect for that but it does n't mean whole men in Iran are like that.

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[–] piggoli-imdb 10 years ago

>> Women have strong position in Iranian culture. They participate in every aspect as for men... Ministries, scientific tasks, ordinary jobs, sports... for example you find that 80% of bungee jumpers in Iran are women.
The same if taken on a social scale or in their families.. you would find a woman walking ahead and her husband behind her carrying their children.. taking them to the bathroom while she sits waiting. They buy the house requirements when they are about to get married. That means a lot in the importance of their contribution in decisions and so forth.

You are absolutely right. Personally I believe this movie is just another one of those sick anti-male feminist propaganda which portray men as nothing more than one-dimensional evil beasts. And FYI, I think you are arguing with one of those deranged feminists here: the argument won't go anywhere, I can predict; feminists use even the most trivial of examples, like TV commercials here, to prove how women's situation is 'bad' under the 'rule of patriarchy' blah blah blah. Yeah, I found this movie offensive, only on another level: in its portrayal of men.

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[–] asjchy1 11 years ago

the miscarriage wasnt because of the push, it was because of the accident... did u watch the film???

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[–] EhsanCoLtd 12 years ago

Let's just say you disagree, and not descend into name calling and hate speech. If you think there is something she doesn't understand or see, simply explain it.

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[–] EhsanCoLtd 12 years ago

I think pointing out a few tangible examples of the abuse you refer to would help clarify your viewpoint. There was no physical abuse in either families, and especially in the case of Nader, while he was too stubborn and "proud" of his own perspective, his behavior could hardly be considered abusive.

In case of Razieh, she was committed to her family and Hojjat was a "hot head" and unhappy character but again, I don't think he could be considered abusive.

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[–] film_ophile 12 years ago

here's what i said:
<I was struck by the fact that both the lead women (and the daughter) showed throughout the film this magnetic draw towards their men, even while they were emotionally abused by them. Reminded me of the common situation where physically abused women/ battered wives continue to go back to or to stick by their abusing husbands or men.

Thankfully, imo, by the film's end, both mother and daughter had realized the true nature of the husband/father- that he was duplicitous and selfish and cared the most about himself and his pride. He was not able to return their love.>

'emotional' abuse, not physical: the 2 husbands were simply so weak and unadmirable and selfish(sorry but 'little boys' is the concept here),
and they made the lives of their hard-working wives so much harder.

The way to have what we want
Is to share what we have.

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[–] zoolzool 12 years ago

I'm a woman, and women like you make me sick.

If you had been born a man, you would probably be a more pleasant human being. Perhaps better looking too.

Pity.

"Old man look at my life, I'm a lot like you were."

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[–] marcheurfr 12 years ago

I wasn't struck by this, but, judging from your use of the word 'sick,' I assume that you found it disconcerting, whereas I found it a breath of fresh air. The culture in Iran and other Islamic countries upholds the loyalty between husband and wife, to a larger extent than many Western countries. Think of a culture where loyalty is valued higher than freedom. I don't think you should be so condescending towards a culture for this, and while there is clearly a limit to family loyalty (wives not speaking out after their husbands have physically abused them), none of this occurs within the film. Understand a culture's advantages and disadvantages before you criticise them using your own culture's ideals as a template. Iran is not a backward, tribal or primitive society, it is a modern one (otherwise you wouldn't see such films as these), so respect the differences. Lastly, I personally don't agree with some of the aspects of Iranian culture, but I always respect it.

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[–] cottonarboretum 12 years ago

I completely agree with the importance of respecting other cultures. I respect my own culture but I find many habits in it that I consider sick. I do not disrespect the Irani culture and I am glad you don't either.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] lsieg 12 years ago

I disagree with film-ophile's knee-jerk condemnation of men. Nader is a sensitive, caring man caught in an almost impossible situation but acting commendably in caring for his helpless father while simultaneously tutoring his daughter on her homework, and even willing to tell the "truth" to appease her conscience despite his realistic knowledge that admitting he knew of the pregnancy will destroy his case. I think his estranged wife is a destructive and mean-spirited woman; she constantly tells people "he pushed the woman." Why does she have to use this counter-productive language when she wasn't even there? Because she is all to ready to destroy her husband. To stereotype the men in this film is as wrong as male chauvinism. The cobbler husband is a hot-tempered loser, and in no way should be equated with Nader who is a fine intelligent man caught in a terrible dilemma which the estranged wife exacerbates.

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[–] coroiu-stefan 12 years ago

I have got the same impression from the movie. I don't understand why you think that he emotionally abused Simin, he just did what he thought was right to do. For example at the hospital he has the character strength to explain the situation directly to Hojjat, while most of us would avoid to talk to a father who thinks we killed their child. As about the divorce i agree with Nader because it seems that they are doing pretty well in Iran, moving into another country would just complicate things for their daughter who just reached puberty. By lying about not knowing that Razieh was pregnant he just made sure that he wont pay for something he did not do. Also do not forget that Hojjat was trying to protect his wife because he didn't know about the car accident, he was convinced that he lost his child because of Nader, now, i'm curious how any of you would have acted if you were in the same situation.

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[–] mortezahalimi 11 years ago

@ film_ophile,

I don't see any abuse not physically nor emotionally from Nader towards his wife or his daughter. If you give us specific examples then the people here can actually discuss it with reason rather than just 'be hating' on a particular group of people.

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[–] ivan-308 11 years ago

Nader is selfish because he can't leave his father with Alzheimer's decease and leave the country as his wife wishes.
So can you teach us what is Simin who says to her husband of 14 years: just give me my daughter and let us go abroad?
Out of selfishness and lack of emotions he pays a private teacher fr his daughter, plays with her daughter, teaches her how to pump her own gas and value of money and what tips means, totally abuses her by insisting on helping her with math homework. Even tells her to make up her own mind to stay with him or go with her mother! What a horrible man!

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