Mr. Tagomi - The Man in the High Castle (2015) Discussion

[–] LHartz 8 years ago

No he isn't. His secretary or whatever he is (the Japanese guy with the wrist scars) is a jumper. Also, possibly the man in the high castle is also a jumper.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

I think Hitler was too

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] larosat 8 years ago

Why Hitler and what evidence to support this?

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[–] magemaximus 8 years ago

doesn't have to do with the "death" of hitler in our world?

You can't persuade fanboys. You'd be better off trying to convince a wall. ~CodeNamePlasmaSnake~

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

Just a hunch. I have no evidence whatsoever.

I think Hitler knows more than just what he learns from the film. After all, Tagomi had to experience more than just the film.

Heck, he may even be our Hitler or we may see him again given how anti-climactic his death was.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] annlevtex 8 years ago

Maybe that was why he was so paranoid.

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[–] andrewbrown-05750 8 years ago

I agree he can probably jump.....but then maybe he is getting the info from.......
****END OF SEASON SPOILERS******

........Jules' sister who though we know she is dead in this timeline, must have shown up at the end from another.

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[–] collinemorris 8 years ago

Yes, Kotomichi posesses the abirity. I feel like Hawthorne Absenden also posesses the abirity but I'm only hypothesize.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

He does. He uses it in the finale.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

He does. He [Hawthorne Absenden] uses it in the finale.

He does?

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

Yes.

He hugs Juliana and transports her to where her sister is.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

He hugs Juliana and transports her to where her sister is.

No, I don't see that. I just played back that scene and saw the hug, saw nothing change, watched as they moved away from each other, still nothing changed. He said "come with me" and they walked outside to see Trudy, but there was no indications of anyone transporting anywhere.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it's just conjecture. They could have gone to Trudy, Trudy could have come to them, she might have already been there, etc.; but all we see is Juliana walking into a warehouse and talking to Abendsen, then walking out with him and seeing Trudy on a dock.

There were no indications of any kind that they had transported.

Also note: the good stacked on the dock had Nazi insignias on them, so they were still in the Reich.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

I just played back that scene and saw the hug, saw nothing change, watched as they moved away from each other, still nothing changed. He said "come with me" and they walked outside to see Trudy, but there was no indications of anyone transporting anywhere.

What did you expect to change?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it's just conjecture.

Of course it's conjecture. However, it fits unless you know something I don't.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

Of course it's conjecture. However, it fits unless you know something I don't.

No, it doesn't fit.

The show runners have already given us a representation of how Tagomi crosses over, the closed eyes, change in audio, etc. etc.

None of that happened.

And if you agree that it's conjecture, you should quit insisting that it went down that way.

My conjecture is that since we had no clues from the show that it happened, then it didn't.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

The show runners have already given us a representation of how Tagomi crosses over, the closed eyes, change in audio, etc. etc.

That's how Togomi does it. That is not a rule. For that matter, he was getting better and better at is as is evidence by his goodbye to Alternate Juliana.

It's the difference between someone doing something a few times vs. several times. If you don;t believe experience matters, then try running a race against Usain Bolt.

And if you agree that it's conjecture, you should quit insisting that it went down that way.

I'm not insisting anything. You have the complete right to disagree and stop talking about it.

I'm going to keep believing it in any event.

My conjecture is that since we had no clues from the show that it happened, then it didn't.

All this means is that we disagree.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

All this means is that we disagree.

It means more than that. I'm going but what we all saw. You're going by what you imagined happened when they hugged, but didn't actually see.

And this is for you:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

I didn't make a new show. We both saw the same thing and came to different conclusions which means this may have been a pretty successful cliffhanger finale.

Let's forget the time travel for a second since it's not really the endgame and thus not even important until season 3.

Is it safe to assume that you at least believe Juliana saw Trudy? If so, then are you saying the true twist of the finale is that Trudy faked her death and waited for her sister to find out?

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] theredviper-66867 8 years ago

Yes indeed. Thats what happened. Abendsen and Trudy faked her death and Abendsen does explain why :)

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

Why

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

Is it safe to assume that you at least believe Juliana saw Trudy? If so, then are you saying the true twist of the finale is that Trudy faked her death and waited for her sister to find out?

No. This is what happened, based only on scenes actually shown:

1) Trudy died in s1e1.
2) Juliana then saw Trudy later alive, in San Francisco, in a season 1 episode.
3) In the season 2 finale, after Juliana and Abendsen hugged, she complained about having nobody left, to which Abendsen said "not so" and took her out back of the warehouse to find Trudy.

We don't know how Trudy got there or even which version of her this is (a crossed-timeline version, or perhaps the original that was never actually killed).

What we can gather from this is that since Juliana saw Trudy die, then twice later saw her alive (once in s1, again in s2), some version of Trudy crossed over into Juliana's prime timeline (either the version that was killed, or the one seen later).

We've seen actual evidence of Tagomi, then later his aide crossing timelines.

We can infer from scenes shown that both Abendsen and a version of Trudy crossed timelines.

No other character has been even remotely implied to have crossed.

Since the Trudy we saw killed in s1e1 could have been crossed-timeline version, it's possible that the version we saw in the season 2 finale is the original, prime Trudy (from Juliana's timeline) that has possibly never crossed-over. But we don't have enough evidence to know either way.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

1) Trudy died in s1e1.
2) Juliana then saw Trudy later alive, in San Francisco, in a season 1 episode.
3) In the season 2 finale, after Juliana and Abendsen hugged, she complained about having nobody left, to which Abendsen said "not so" and took her out back of the warehouse to find Trudy.

Not sure if you are intentionally leaving out the fact that Juliana saw Trudy dead after tagomi told her the location of her body and after she saw her in San Francisco.

No other character has been even remotely implied to have crossed.

We didn't know Tagomi could cross until the very end of last season. So just because something isn't implied doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Otherwise, there is no story progression & you just have to make up reasons for all the stuff happens in the show or not think about it at all.

It seems that you are saying that the only thing that is possible is that which we have seen.

I'm not sure why anyone would think that way. There is absolutely no reason to think that other people can't cross timelines and for some reason the one dude who knows what's going on is not allowed that ability? Or Trudy who we know is dead at least once?

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

Not sure if you are intentionally leaving out the fact that Juliana saw Trudy dead after tagomi told her the location of her body and after she saw her in San Francisco.

There you go. Juliana saw Trudy that time as well. This was most probably the Trudy that we saw shot in s1e1; but which Trudy was it, the original/prime or a crossed-timeline version?

It seems that you are saying that the only thing that is possible is that which we have seen.

Not at all. I'm saying what we know are facts based on things we've seen, that we can deduce more from other things we've seen, and that any other observations are merely conjecture (classic definition case).

We cannot claim absolutely that something has happened that we didn't see happen, such as you telling multiple people in this thread that Juliana and Abendsen definitely crossed timelines during their hug.

It's not just a difference of opinion. We didn't see that happen, so you can't that say it did happen indisputably. As you have been, with certainty.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

This was most probably the Trudy that we saw shot in s1e1; but which Trudy was it, the original/prime or a crossed-timeline version?

I just find it odd that you can accept there are two Trudy's around with no idea how they crossed since only Tagomi and his assistant can teleport since the show hasn't implied anyone else has.

I'm saying what we know are facts based on things we've seen, that we can deduce more from other things we've seen, and that any other observations are merely conjecture (classic definition case).

Exactly. I've deduced from facts seen. That is not the same thing as me saying my deductions are facts since I'm not a writer. I just take issue with the notion that you know more simply because you disagree with my deductions.

You haven;t presented anything better, are pretending to not know anything and being fine with that while at the same time saying I'm wrong. It's weird.
We cannot claim absolutely that something has happened that we didn't see happen, such as

you telling multiple people in this thread that Juliana and Abendsen definitely crossed timelines during their hug.

You are being willfully ignorant. I have repeatedly stated that this is my opinion. It's the one I'm sticking with until other deductions are presented or season 3 rolls around and corrects me.

It is not my job or interest to speculate on things I don't think are likely and I'm too interested in the show to stop thinking about it altogether.

Anyone & everyone is more than welcome to disagree as you are since I have no proof for my theory beyond what I've seen. However, don't lie and say I'm presenting things as facts just because that's how you are interpreting it by ignoring blocks of my statements.

Debate as much as you want, just don;t waste time going that route. If you have more information for me beyond "Tagomi closes his eyes" then I'm all [internet] ears.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

I'm done with this. I started a response, only to realize that you're working overly hard to remain entrenched with this idea of yours, so you can keep it.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] HarveyMidnight 8 years ago

No, it doesn't fit.

It doesn't fit the known facts. Juliana previously saw Trudy in an earlier episode-- she even asked the Man in the High Castle if it was possible her sister was somehow still alive.

That's evidence to suggest that this live version of Trudy can "travel", and has traveled to Jules's universe--- not the other way around.

Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

That's evidence to suggest that this live version of Trudy can "travel", and has traveled to Jules's universe--- not the other way around.

Well, there is not enough information on who can travel to make an assumption about this too.

For all we know, there are a thousand [people that can travel with or anyone can travel with the proper training.

These are all things to hopefully find out in season 3.

If I were you, I'd wanna be me too. 

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[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] samwise9 8 years ago

I agree with you. They went from a warehouse in a mountain town in the neutral zone to a wharf by a lake or sea inlet.

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[–] Justincblount 8 years ago

There is no reason to believe TMITHC or Hitler were jumpers. Tagomi and his assistant do so through meditation, an Eastern practice.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

Meditation is not an eastern practice alone.

High Castle dude literally did it in the finale.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] Justincblount 8 years ago

I didn't notice anything like that, but now that I think about it Trudy being there was weird.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

He embraced Juliana and took her to where Trudy was.

I would venture to say that no one has more control over this than him.

Plus we now have an idea of how he gets the tapes. I imagine there are a bunch of people that have this ability and bring evidence back. I just can't figure out how the networking works. Both he and Hitler had a bunch of them.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] alveolate 8 years ago

ugh i find the reality-jumps really jarring. they're trying too hard to be mysterious, and 20 episodes in they still don't explain ANYTHING at all about the films and alternate realities. in fact, they made a HUGE plot point dependent on something from the films / someone having watched the films, AND STILL it doesn't explain jack all about why it works and how the films even came about.

is this how new series are written now? make a giant mystery the central plot point, then turn it into a practical macguffin for 2 seasons? ooooh mystery, now viewers MUST watch the next season... where i reveal yet another major connected plot point while withholding EVERY DAMN THING else about the central mystery! poof, 5 seasons confirmed!

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

ugh i find the reality-jumps really jarring. they're trying too hard to be mysterious, and 20 episodes in they still don't explain ANYTHING at all about the films and alternate realities.

I personally think they have explained a lot more about the films.

We know that:

At least some of the films are actual film from the other universes.

We know that the other universe can be tranversed across timelines

We know that they seem to pop up from various sources and The Man & Hitler were in a race to collect as many to put the pieces together.

The films are apparently strongly connected to Julia as The Man can piece together enough material to figure out she is the only one that can save San Francisco

We know that people can travel to alternate universes although we don't know if they can control which ones.

To me, season 3 would have to be about clarification and details on this although I do want to see Japan more.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] alveolate 8 years ago

we don't know:

how the films were made / are being made, why, and who or what made / are making the films

what the films can really do, apart from indirectly affecting historical outcomes via some sort of bootstrap paradox - i.e. when someone sees something happening in the film and they try to avoid it; but since they never really know the full context of the films, they might actually be manipulated into those reactions

how alternate realities work

how to travel across them, who can do so, why they can, and what they can do

without clarity on all those points, we can make all sorts of insane speculations. maybe this is the matrix? maybe they're all hosts? maybe Tagomi and Kotomichi can access the speedforce and are about to cause a flashpoint? maybe aliens? supernatural *beep* the bloody holy grail??

it's just unnecessarily distracting to have such a HUGE plot point hovering just beneath the surface, the proximate cause of most of the series' major events, yet being so under-explained.

meanwhile, the drama between the characters and their daily struggles are, on their own, already so compelling. it kinda detracts from the reality of those struggles when everything could simply be some false reality or whatever it is they're not telling us. i mean, i get keeping some mystery, but 20 episodes in and we still don't know anything at all.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

how the films were made / are being made, why, and who or what made / are making the films

We have an idea of that from Tagomi's travels. The films are just films from the reality they come from and transported by people with the ability to do so.

There's no Spielberg out there filming bits of alternate reality specifically for Castle Dude to get. However, there is some mystery considering how prominent Juliana plays in at least enough films for Castle Dude to get an notion about her.

what the films can really do, apart from indirectly affecting historical outcomes via some sort of bootstrap paradox

I don't necessarily think they are paradoxes. I think the films are a part of the history of the alternate reality, but it gives them glimpses into what could happen.
i

t's just unnecessarily distracting to have such a HUGE plot point hovering just beneath the surface, the proximate cause of most of the series' major events, yet being so under-explained.

I don't find it distracting as much as I see it as plot progression. They should never be an expectation that a show is mandated to spill its guts on everything.

To me, speculation is part of the fun.

meanwhile, the drama between the characters and their daily struggles are, on their own, already so compelling.

Those struggles are dependent on the tapes though. Otherwise it would just be a show about Nazis and Japan and the Resistance who fights them and we would viewing the characters in much different ways.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

Plus we now have an idea of how he gets the tapes.

They aren't tapes, you know.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

I didn't notice anything like that

Neither did I.

Hands up: who else thought that Abendsen and Juliana "transported" to another timeline during their hug at the end of the Season 2 finale?

Because I just saw them walk out of the warehouse they were already in and Trudy was there. We have no idea how she got there, but since she appeared in Season 1 (after her death was portrayed), we have no reason to believe that she isn't already there in Juliana's present timeline.

The more logical conclusion is that Trudy has been around for awhile and Juliana seeing her in San Francisco was so last-season.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] smithjgs 8 years ago

This has really gotten you bent out of shape.

If this is Locke, then who's in there? 

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

This has really gotten you bent out of shape.

Why do you say that?

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] Crispy81 8 years ago

It appeared that Tagomi, in the alternate reality where the allies win, committed suicide by jumping off the bridge as Juliana ran after him, although it wasn't explicitly stated. Daniel Percival explains in the behind the episode clip that he in indeed killed himself, which allowed for the other Tagomi from the prime story timeline to transport over to where his family is alive. Thus, one version of the same person has to die in order for the other version of that person to transport to the other reality.

Therefore, the theories about the original Trudy from the prime story still being alive and an alternate Trudy transporting over from another reality to give Juliana the film, only to be killed by the Kempatai, doesn't add up. That would mean that both versions of Trudy, at least for a short while, would have existed at the same time in the same reality, and according to Percival, that cannot be the case.

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

Thus, one version of the same person has to die in order for the other version of that person to transport to the other reality.

Interesting--I knew I should have watched those extra clips.

So Trudy from an alternate timeline could not have crossed over until prime Trudy had died. Good to know, thanks!

Edit: and that leaves us wondering which timeline Abendsen belongs in and/or came from.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] Crispy81 8 years ago

I think it also explains why Juliana and Trudy's mom sensed that Trudy was alive and well after being worried sick for days. When alternate Trudy crossed over and was spotted by Juliana in the market after prime Trudy died, her mom felt her presence.

Abendsen is still quite a mysterious figure. Hopefully there will be a season 3 that will give more background on him.

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[–] NotASpeckOfCereal 8 years ago

Abendsen is still quite a mysterious figure. Hopefully there will be a season 3 that will give more background on him.

Agreed.

Heck, even Hitler's motives were a bit of a mystery, in respect to his fascination with the films. I wonder if that caused him to set a thing or two in motion that would occur even after his death ...

If there's a next season, perhaps Smith will figure that one out.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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[–] mikexmene 8 years ago

It appeared that Tagomi, in the alternate reality where the allies win, committed suicide by jumping off the bridge as Juliana ran after him, although it wasn't explicitly stated. Daniel Percival explains in the behind the episode clip that he in indeed killed himself, which allowed for the other Tagomi from the prime story timeline to transport over to where his family is alive. Thus, one version of the same person has to die in order for the other version of that person to transport to the other reality.

I saw the same thing on the bonus clips. It's worth going back and watching.

As for Hitler's motives, it's possible he saw films where America won and he didn't want that to happen. Or he saw films of the Germans going to war with Japan and didn't want that to happen either. Either because he wanted peace with Japan or that he saw some of the films and was under the mistaken impression that Japan had developed a hydrogen bomb and was afraid of them.

That's only a guess. There were many people around him that did want a war with Japan.

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