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The Multiple Alternate Universes Aspect Strikes Me as a Mistake


"The Man in the High Castle," as a miniseries, is doing many things right.

I love the show's aesthetics, its recreation of a Nazi East Coast, a Japanese Empire West Coast, and a down-on-its-luck neutral zone.

The Holocaust and its mass murders are deftly and heartbreakingly referenced in the murder of Frank's sister, niece, and nephew.

The plot twists keep you on your toes and intrigue you.

Seeing Juliana crouch serviley when she encounters her social superiors, seeing Smith deal with the news about his son, seeing suburban housewife Mrs Smith, the zaftig beauty, stand up for Nazi values, all give us a hint of how the world could be different.

For me, all that is plenty to deal with and process.

The alternate universe aspect of the show, the sci fi aspect, where Tagomi can shuffle i-ching twigs and enter a parallel universe, for me, is just gilding the lily, throwing in one more thing to deal with, and lessening my involvement in the show.

it feels like one gimmick too many.

We already have gimmick enough -- the Nazi and Empire victories. We already have enough "what ifs' to deal with.

Why add one more, one that's utterly implausible, and that makes the hole storyline appear less real?

if you can just shuffle some twigs and get a different outcome, one in which all those victims were not murdered, why care?

Also, for me, it makes the resistance out to be some kind of weird, nerd, high school Audio Visual club in-joke.

Hi, we're the resistance. We're not liberating slaves, or saving lives, or rewriting the constitution -- we are collecting movies. WTF?

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Send-Delete-Danusha-Goska/dp/1846949866

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Yeah, I was hoping for a plausible explanation for the films. Instead, we basically get a non-explanation.

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i'm not at the "explanation" part yet in my viewing.

I have read that in Dick's book it's a book that contains an alternate history.

I suspect it's going to end up like "Lost." A no explanation explanation.

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Send-Delete-Danusha-Goska/dp/1846949866

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The explanation I mean is Tagomi bringing back a film from the alternate. If that's the explanation for the films existing, I can do without the films.

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Then it wouldn't be based on Dick's work at all, not a sci-fi, just an alternative history. A what if. Which is fine, but that's not what this story is about.

What I mean is that it's not a mistake, it's by design, which also invalidates the notion that it's a gimmick.

First and foremost, you're rallying against the very core of the story, right down to the title. Who do you think the Man in the High Castle is? What is it about the films then and could that possibly have anything do with end game?

The alternate universe aspect of the show, the sci fi aspect, where Tagomi can shuffle i-ching twigs and enter a parallel universe, for me, is just gilding the lily, throwing in one more thing to deal with, and lessening my involvement in the show.

The i-ching is not the mechanism that allows him to do that, as far as I can tell. In fact, I don't think they intended for you to think that. He uses the i-ching to view portends; then he also meditates, which eventually leads him to cross over.

I don't think you've finished Season 2, so I'll not say anymore, except that there are indications from other people that i-ching has nothing to do with that. If you have finished Season 2, say so and I'll tell you what I mean by that in spoiler tags.

Also, I wish people would quit comparing shows to LOST whenever they're presented with mysteries. A good story doesn't spell everything out to you, especially not piece meal along the way, but instead gives you clues and invites you to think.

The fact that LOST left so many of those clues unanswered doesn't mean that another show with mysteries is going to do the same.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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Then it wouldn't be based on Dick's work at all, not a sci-fi, just an alternative history. A what if. Which is fine, but that's not what this story is about.


Dick's book never featured a literal travelling to an alternate universe and bringing back physical objects - it was an ambiguous vision Tagomi had of what could have been, just like Abendsen's book. It's an idea of reality.

The film-makers have chosen their route because instead of The Grasshopper Lies Heavy being a book within a book it's a film within a film which makes perfect sense with the change of medium but they also did it to create a stronger visual mystery mcguffin for the audience to latch-on to - albeit one that's hard to resolve within the grounded level of the series in general, so for many people looking for a 'proper' answer, it may never have a satisfying resolve.

This means they could've played it 2 ways: a) the films are a 'special effect' - making the films a convincing alternate reality, like our wartime footage, would be difficult considering the tech of the era but it could be explained, somehow - or b) people can actually travel to different dimensions which is an even bigger fictional leap for the audience to take but affords a more sci-fi fantasy scenario. So far they seem to have opted for the latter.

It's difficult to know how succesful this ultimately is because there are more seasons to come where this may be explored more deeply but I don't think they needed to be so heavy-handed in the dimension-hopping for the series to dramatically work within the realm of its ideas.


Dick's book is more subtle in this regard.

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Idiocrat thank you for your great post.



http://www.amazon.com/Save-Send-Delete-Danusha-Goska/dp/1846949866

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Hi, no, I have not yet finished season two.

Please understand: if the alternative timelines work for you, that's great. They're just not working for me. I experience them as a distraction from the other rewards I get from watching this -- the alternative "what if" history, the aesthetics, the actors and performances.

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Send-Delete-Danusha-Goska/dp/1846949866

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Please understand: if the alternative timelines work for you, that's great. They're just not working for me. I experience them as a distraction from the other rewards I get from watching this -- the alternative "what if" history, the aesthetics, the actors and performances.

Understood.

My point was not that you were wrong, but that without the films, that conspiracy, etc., it would just be a completely different story.

Of course, there could still be a conspiracy of some sort.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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The i-ching is not the mechanism that allows him to do that, as far as I can tell. In fact, I don't think they intended for you to think that. He uses the i-ching to view portends; then he also meditates, which eventually leads him to cross over.


Furthermore, both Tagomi and his assistant Kotomichi, crossed timelines when they were meditating to deal with the grief over deceased loved ones-- "wishing to see them again", so to speak.

There's also the coincidence-- maybe-- that the 'double' of Mr. Tagomi in the 'USA' timeline has killed himself-- and the Juliana of that world confessed that she MISSED him. Likewise, Trudy has been killed in the Nazi timeline, and Juliana missed her... and a 'double' of Trudy has now shown up.

So it may actually be a 'thing' that, the crossover-mechanism includes mentally wishing yourself to a place where people are hoping you'll show up.

Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.

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Thanks for explaining the actual novel. I've never read and knew nothing about it going into the TV show.

I agree somewhat with the OP. I was excited becasue of the shows imagery and I kind of thought originally maybe it would be like a story of espionage. Which, we get a taste of...

But I feel slightly that the fantasy aspect of traveling to alternate universes is pretty far fetched for a show which deals with the hyper realistic what-if of a global fascist Nazi domination. Well, realistic is a stretch, but if a few things had gone differently, maybe it would have come to pass.

Anyway, once I learn additional details, which were sorely absent from this season, I'll bet it'll grow on me.

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I've been discussing this aspect of the show in another internet environment and we decided that the alternate timeline aspect of the show would be great if it gave us a sense of how environment contributes to behavior / morality.

Meaning -- If John Smith had not been born into this reich history, he would have been a nice guy, a pillar of the community -- maybe -- maybe Joe would be a construction worker. Maybe Juliana and Frank would be a suburban couple whose biggest woe was household mold.

Maybe Inspector Kido would sing in a church choir ...

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Send-Delete-Danusha-Goska/dp/1846949866

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Meaning -- If John Smith had not been born into this reich history, he would have been a nice guy, a pillar of the community

Maybe now that John will be missing Thomas (if he dies because of his actions in the S2 finale), we might see what John would have been like in another timeline via the mechanism mentioned by user HarveyMidnight in this post of this same thread:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740299/board/thread/264638297?d=264802806#264802806

Maybe Juliana and Frank would be a suburban couple whose biggest woe was household mold.

We've already seen Juliana in a different timeline and she has a child by a husband, a man other than Frank. It's likely that in this timeline, she also doesn't have the incident with the bus (Season 2 spoiler: which was probably a suicide attempt). Also, this is a part of the story we would not have seen if this did not have the sci-fi angle of alternate timelines.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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She wasn't married to Frank.

I'm sensing that motherhood/fatherhood and genetic heritage is going to play a big part in the next season.

They established that Joe is considered top Nazi genetics plus he truly wants to be married with children of his own.

In turn they made a big deal of Julianna not being a top drawer breeder in the Nazi ideal but they did show her as a loving mother in another universe.

So it seems to me that the Nazi side will work purposefully to keep Joe away from Julianna.

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She wasn't married to Frank.

Thanks. I didn't mean to imply that, so I edited my post to make it more clear.

I'm sensing that motherhood/fatherhood and genetic heritage is going to play a big part in the next season.

You're probably right.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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We've already seen Juliana in a different timeline and she has a child by a husband other than Frank


I get that sense that that is Tagomi's timeline, for his benefit -- to see his son married to a lowly American, and to see that as a loving relationship.

But I have no idea.

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Send-Delete-Danusha-Goska/dp/1846949866

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I get that sense that that is Tagomi's timeline, for his benefit -- to see his son married to a lowly American, and to see that as a loving relationship.

Or for him to see that his alternate self of that timeline saw it that way (lowly American) before killing himself in shame by jumping off the bridge; which the prime Togami was disgusted with and felt guilty about, and so acted to amend that.

I'm not sure that we were shown enough to know why Tagomi felt that way about the prime Juliana before he transported to the alternate timeline, holding on to the necklace like that, and also Juliana not saying anything when she saw the necklace on his desk at Nippon.

There's a lot going on here. I need to re-watch it all having now seen season 2.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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Why do you think Juliana's bus incident was suicide? Have there been clues ? Again, I have not seen every episode.

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Send-Delete-Danusha-Goska/dp/1846949866

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Why do you think Juliana's bus incident was suicide? Have there been clues ? Again, I have not seen every episode.


Are you asking for spoilers? Cuz this technically is one; it's from the final episode.


She said so, in a flashback that showed her first meeting with Ed.

Frank and Ed were setting up a picnic and Frank told Ed not to ask Juliana about the bus accident. When she arrived, Frank went to get forgotten cups; Ed and Juliana shared a beer from a bottle while they waited--- she opened up to Ed about the fact that she was facing dark times, and made a split second decision to jump in front of the bus.


Sometimes fires don't go out when you're done playin' with them.

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Dang, I should have marked that as a spoiler. I went back and did that now.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

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We already have gimmick enough -- the Nazi and Empire victories.
I don;t think that's enough.

The show would basically be about how Americans adapt to being losers which would get old quick.

I think the show's theme is how much a few people can cause a ripple effect and the sci-fi portion is what makes the world cohesive. Juliana wouldn't have ever been in it in the first place.

I do agree that the alternate universe stuff is taking a while to explain, but I don;t mind that much because the world building in this show is too superb. I like them dwelling on it a bit, but not to the point that it's the show.

If this is Locke, then who's in there?

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The alternate universe aspect of the show, the sci fi aspect, where Tagomi can shuffle i-ching twigs and enter a parallel universe, for me, is just gilding the lily, throwing in one more thing to deal with, and lessening my involvement in the show.


Satisfying all of my post Fringe, alternate universe desires with an interesting story to boot. I'm happy.

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Death is the standard breach for a complex prize.

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