**Obviously Spoilers**
I have come to the conclusion that Florence did not survive the poisoning and that Robert ended up killing himself. The only person who acknowledges either of them, is the red head boy who was also able to see Tom. I believe they are both ghosts that will roam the school for eternity.
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tom(kid) gives her zinc sulphate that she vomits.
robert comes back ; the bottle is near her but no sign of vomiting.
Later she walks and nobody notice her . robert will say " i know you are here"
she replies " the school director doesn't see me" .
a second kid will reply when she hi him.
i think it is made that you think she is dead but she is alive...
Earlier in the film she mentioned that a life haunted is not living. Thus the ambiguous ending. I believe she is alive at the end though.
shareI think she lived. For one thing, if we assume that Florence is dead, then we must assume that Robert is dead as well. If only she were dead, then he would be openly talking to himself in front of pupils, parents, and his superiors, which would look ludicrous. Second, the sharing of the cigarette would be impossible if only one or the other were dead. Robert could have committed suicide alongside Maude, but that theory falls flat for me. For one thing it's so melodramatic as to seem implausible. I mean, this guy can see hundreds of deaths in the war, but he'd off himself over one woman he hasn't even known long? Unlikely. In addition, if one of the teachers AND Maude had committed suicide at the same time, that would be some big news and would have lended a more dismal, scandalized, depressing, and grey atmosphere to the final scene. The boys, nor the teachers, are acting as though they just uncovered something so horrific, which would have been the case if no one was left to alert authorities. The suicide of an old maid who long seemed unstable is one thing. The double suicide (questionably homicide/suicide in the mind of any outsider)involving a young, repsonsible, educated, and seemingly balanced man is another matter entirely. So, that theory just doesn't make sense to me.
For all the evidence mentioned above, I believe Florence is alive. She drank very little poison and did vomit. We don't see the vomit, of course, but why would we? It would be far too gross for such an emotional scene. We don't see Maude's body, either, from Robert's angle, but she is there. Additionally, the woman the instructors are talking about toward the end is Maude, not Florence. Why would the boys be so taken with Florence, as the man mentions, when she had not been around very long? Further, ghosts do not write books or hire coaches to take them into London. As for the lonely boy who acknowledges Florence, he's just paying her the most attention because he has no other friends. Perhaps the most important factor of all, Florence looks *happy.* She said herself that she would not make a happy ghost, so why would her ghost have such a bright look and positive air?
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Come on people, this is a movie, anything is possible. A ghost can change clothes, smoke a cigarette, say she called for a car, say she's going to write a book, make future dates, etc. In reality can ghosts do these things?? Who knows..I never met a ghost to ask, have any of you???? Sooo...I say she died.
No use over thinking it. It'll just drive us crazy.
She said herself that she would not make a happy ghost, so why would her ghost have such a bright look and positive air?
It seems to me she's dead and he's alive. But it's true some things makes no sense, the passing of the cigarette, etc. The thing is, it's probably pointless to try to understand this ending: they botched and it just doesn't make any sense.
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She's alive, here's why.
- She drinks the Zinc Sulphate (it can make you vomit), almost immediately we see her roll over and presumably vomit, she rolls back with her hand over her mouth (having just vomited off screen) Deliberately deceptive unless you are sharp and you won't know it happened, music over the top prevents you hearing anything.
- Next scene appears lifeless, this is a ruse. she is sleeping as she stated she needed to moments earlier. No vomit is visible in this scene, but it was to her right and we can't see what is there due to furniture.
- Walks past Headmaster who is talking about Maud, and mentions Florence, but just then didn't notice her walking past (she's fully alive but the Headmaster is engrossed in conversation) which when Robert says "I know you are there" prompts Florence to say "That's more than your Headmaster does", since it's rude to be talked about when you are in earshot. (Movie deliberately played these scenes to keep you guessing)
- Says "Hello" to random non-lonely boy who responds.
- And just in case we needed a few more obvious clues to spell it all out, she is writing a book, has changed clothes and is being Chauffeured.
Which all makes sense, because she is alive.
She wasn't dead. They started off giving that impression.I think on purpose but as she was walking away from Robert after they talked another boy standing with his parents said hello, and she answered him back. Not to mention she asked Robert to have the car pick her up at the end of the driveway. She survived and was planning to write another book.
shareSPOILERS - SPOILERS - SPOILERS - SPOILERS - SPOILERS - SPOILERS - SPOILERS - SPOILERS - SPOILERS
Actually my take was her brother's ghost helped to save her, along with Robert, the teacher; and so they stayed on at the school because they knew who the ghosts were and weren't afraid of them anymore. After all, why else would maude kill herself to be with Tom, when she'd poisoned Florence for just that purpose already? I think it was because she knew that, with Tom and Robert's help, Florence would live and so died in her stead so her son wouldn't be alone anymore (bonkers as that was).
After all, if they were both dead how could Robert bury Edward (the would be rapist) in the grounds? I've just watched the film as it happens, I recorded it when it was on the tv the other night, so this is my take just half an hour after it finished.
**SPOILER ALERTS!!!*** DON'T BLAME ME IF YOU READ THIS AND THEN GET ANGRY BECAUSE PLOT POINTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
I completely agree with you, Swaintastic. I believe that she did NOT survive. Here are my reasons, which I believe are well thought out. :)
1) No evidence that she vomited, except that she leaned away, but in the long shot, no vomit, the camera certainly showed no vomit, just her lying there with the bottle beside her. If she vomited, where is it?
2) She walks by the headmaster who speaks of her as if isn't there, and as if she didn't just walk within inches of virtually touching him, also the scene immediately prior, she walks by a man, almost touching him and he doesn't even flinch. All by itself, this clue proves nothing. I admit that.
3) She IS seen by the red-headed boy, but we know the loneliest boys do see the ghosts. Again, all by itself, this clue proves nothing.
4) Robert, being lonely himself, and acknowledging that he sees the ghosts of his war buddies explains why he can see and detect her. (assuming she is actually dead)
5) Some say that her smoking the cigarette proves she was alive, but her half brother (Tom) interacted in all sorts of ways with the "real world" and there is no way to tell if those interactions were detected by others or not. For example, Tom playing table tennis, picking up her belongings in the hallway while they were talking, etc, etc. We don't know what the "laws" of the ghostly interactions are or were in this film, thus, saying that "seeing her smoking the cigarette proves she is alive" is at least suspect, ambiguous, up for interpretation, can be used to prove either conclusion. I read, "Well, wouldn't the kids see a cigarette floating in mid air?". Not necessarily. Tom was playing table tennis. Would the other kids have seen the paddle floating in mid air? We don't know, thus we can conclude nothing about the interaction with the cigarette.
6) I've also read that right before the ending credits, she says hello to the group of boys and they respond with a "hello"; notice, however, that another boy runs up right as that "interaction" happens; thus, they may have been speaking to that boy and not responding to Florence at all. Again, this action proves nothing conclusively and can be interpreted either way.
For the reasons stated, I believe that Florence did not survive and her statement that she intends to write another book is just her way of saying she can do whatever she wants, being flippant or silly...or poking fun of herself since she died in order to prove the existence of ghosts.
For me, her having died fits everything about the film that I observed and understand. I understand that one could just as easily draw the opposite conclusion, using almost the same points of evidence, but interpreting them differently. To know for certain, we would need to ask the filmmaker or screenwriter...however, it is altogether possible even he or she doesn't know and wrote it ambiguously for the simple reason of starting debates just like this one. :)
Feel free to disagree with me. :)
I'll disagree.
All the points you make were the filmmaker's clearly well-made attempt to keep us guessing 'til nearly the end, including faculty ignoring her, and the red head kid seeing her.
However these are the points which clearly indicate she is among the living right after the red-head sees her:
1) She asks Robert to tell her driver to meet her at the end of the road, as she likes the walk. Doesn't seem that ghosts tend to take road-trips away from the place they died and haunt, or need drivers to transport them.
2) In keeping with that, why would a ghost be keeping to a scheduled "life" elsewhere than the place of death which allows for visits on the weekend?
Also,
3) She is no longer in direct contact with Tom (or Maud), speaking about how not seeing them isn't the same as not remembering. If she had died, then she'd be keeping him company, and probably seeing Maud.
In addition, (not that you really used it in your argument) the male faculty didn't interact with her because in the early twentieth century, their chauvinism and belief she contributed to Maud's suicide allowed them to utterly ignore and disrespect her.
Finally, your first point is just wrong. Rewatch the scene here http://youtu.be/TUEgd5V1_bw?t=1h35m2s.
After she drinks the zinc sulphate, she rolls over to her right side, coming back with a wipe to her mouth, and then, when Robert enters, in the "long shot" of her laying there, a tabletop or counter blocks all but a few inches of the floor directly to her right side. Heck, it might've only been just the regurgitation of the small amount of poisoned alcohol she drank, but even if it were a pile of vomit, the camera couldn't see it due to its lack of X-ray capability.
So, disagree or not, I think the case is well made that the director wanted us to question her survival right up til just past the point the redhead said hello, and then by showing her life beyond the grounds of her old home, her survival is completely verified.
And the subtitles also prove she says hello to the next group of kids.
Cheers!
"I like to watch" Chauncey Gardiner, 'Being There'
clearly she lived. they leave you guessing until they spell it out quite plainly that it's maude who had died, not her.
i don't think there's any intention to have people pondering her fate when the film is over either. the end just doesn't work.
The subtitles only show words, they don't show who knew what, heard what, who was talking to whom or anything that lead to an objective conclusion. They leave it open for interpretation, IMHO. I think you make a great case, but I stand by my conclusion that the director craftily worked to leave it ambiguous all around, regarding the end. The parts where you say I was "just wrong", in my view, are subjective opinion and aren't supported by objective evidence either way. Again, it's filmed and acted in such a way to leave it ambiguous and up for personal interpretation. That is just the way it appears to me, after having watched it a few times, so I still stand by my conclusions. I recognize and respect your view, but in the end, I think we are still left with interpreting it in our own way. Best to you!
shareI think that Robert is probably alive, and that Florence is dead, but that she doesn't KNOW that she's dead.
shareThey Headmaster said 'they'll be devastated, they adored her' Clearly talking about Maud not Florence' as they wouldn't have adored Florence. He then said 'the Cathart girl didn't help - she wasn't altogether well herself' as she walked past. Thats why she made the comment about the headmaster not knowing she was there.
Watching it all back a few time it doesn't seem ambiguous at all - just seems a nice happy ending for all concerned. - Note she also comments on not seeing not meaning forgetting, meaning she hasn't forgotten Tom now he's passed over'
They Headmaster said 'they'll be devastated, they adored her' Clearly talking about Maud not Florence' as they wouldn't have adored Florence. He then said 'the Cathart girl didn't help - she wasn't altogether well herself' as she walked past. Thats why she made the comment about the headmaster not knowing she was there.
Watching it all back a few time it doesn't seem ambiguous at all - just seems a nice happy ending for all concerned. - Note she also comments on not seeing not meaning forgetting, meaning she hasn't forgotten Tom now he's passed over
I think the "not seeing, not forgetting" comment is the big clue that clarifies everything.
Maud and the boy have moved out of "limbo" and are now at rest, Florence will no longer see them, but won't forget them.