MovieChat Forums > The Dark Tower (2017) Discussion > As a Dark Tower Fan...

As a Dark Tower Fan...

posted 8 years ago by Frequency270
44 replies | jump to latest

...I'm putting my whole two cents on the Roland-as-a-black-man opinion in the mix

Nikolaj Arcel has a small, if relatively competent filmography, so there's that.

The novel itself features Roland unquestionably as a white male, and in fact makes it a key dynamic in the story.

So let's say we decide to go Percy White on Roland based on the value of the actor. Idris has a high TV rating. The shows featuring him, The Wire and Luther, feature episodes with very high scores.

BUT...you put him in the cinematic universe where he is playing primary protagonist or antagonist and is not represented by an animated character, he peaks out at 7.8(not bad, honestly), but tends to hover more in the 7.0 or lower, with a heavy bible in the mid-6's and mid 5's.

This is nothing other than stunt casting, which didn't help the recent Fantastic Four at all, and helped eviscerate The Last Airbender. There is the idea in most minds that if the directors and writers will make a major change in the characters, they will disrespect more of the original author's vision of story and I suspect that here myself.

So, my forecast, even with heavy buzz and a huge fanbase, peak IMDB scoring will not have a sustained(week long) score of 6.7, and will(optimistically) settle in at a score in the low 6's.

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

and in fact makes it a key dynamic in the story.

If by "key dynamic in the story" you mean "an incidental detail mostly brought up in the latter half of The Drawing of the Three by an insane aspect of a split personality that would gladly use any tool at her disposal to cause chaos and was actually fearful of Roland for much deeper reasons", then I agree.

which didn't help the recent Fantastic Four at all

Perhaps not, but that was far from the primary reasons why that adaptation bombed hard.

Crappy writing and crappy direction took care of that.

and helped eviscerate The Last Airbender

The whitewashed casting was a slap in the face (because minority representation is already hamstrung as is, and to see it in an adaptation of source material with a primarily "minority" cast...) to be sure, but I think the shoehorning of an entire SEASON of a television series into one film was ultimately what dicked it over.

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] Spider198 8 years ago

Yeah it's stunt casting that will blow up in the face of the nobody director, and he deserves it.
This will suffer the same fate as the Fantastic Four.

[–] Naomeri 8 years ago

He's hardly a nobody director, he directed an Oscar-nominated film!

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

"He got lucky!" is what I expect someone to say or insinuate, in response.

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] discipleofthecreed 8 years ago

Here, I'll make you feel better. Awards shows and the ego stroking trinkets that come with them mean absolute dick.

This is an ABBAB conversation: Always be berating and belittling.

[–] Anakin_McFly 8 years ago

I didn't bother watching the latest Fantastic Four not because of the casting but because it looked like crap. It could have been an all white cast and it would still look like crap.

---
It's the question that drives us. I know the answer is 42.

[–] Frequency270 8 years ago

I am going to modify my original forecast to include very limited press release, a February release date and no official previews, and forecast the 'settle in' score at 5.4. The producers clearly have minimal faith, but enough not to make it DTV.
Initial theatrical rating will still be mid to high 6, based on fan enthusiasm alone.

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

Wow! There's nothing quite like a mathematical equation to quiet a debate. You have some valid points though with fan enthusiasm. Could you please also factor in the numbers on King adaptations and McConaughey numbers and i guess we then divide by 3 to get to a more appropriate forecast score?

[–] Frequency270 8 years ago

King quality of adaptations are very uneven. Judging from output, I would say he is very indulgent with directors during production and during initial release. McConaughey is going through an acting peak, but that is going to mean little if he is saddled with weak direction or script.

I am practicing a combination of intellectual and intuitive measurements. While I would love this adaptation to be good, everything that I am seeing shows they are veering far from source material. While I have done this previously in private, or on very bad movies, I have never done apublic forecast on a movie that has this strong a fan following. I'd like to see if I can make a forecast I can stand behind.

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] MaximusGrandimus 8 years ago

I am practicing a combination of intellectual and intuitive measurements.

Does this factor in fanboyism? The quality amongst a fan base that will absolutely love anything with the name of said property/franchise slapped onto something no matter what it is? I'm not saying I feel this movie will be that level, I actually have a bit of faith in the production, and while they are making changes from the source material I see it as another turn of the wheel, as many of the more positive posters on this board do.

Veering far from the source material in terms of content and action, does not necessarily mean they are veering far from the source in terms of theme, idea, heart. It is possible to be true to the spirit of a story while making an adaptation that is nothing like the source - just look at The Bourne Identity.

But I don't feel that will be the case here either. I think there will be pieces from throughout the story, but that it will be primarily The Gunslinger, with Jake and Roland meeting in a different way, and that much of this film will have to do with Roland redefining and returning to his quest for the Dark Tower. Now, those parts of the story that they have released do seem to have a lot of dramatic potential. So I'm willing to give this the benefit of many doubts. I realize the writer has written a few stinkers, but also has he written an Oscar winner, as well as a few other excellent films. Arcel has a short history but his films have done very well critically, and a number of them are adaptations of recent popular novels. So in those regards I think the creative team has a lot of potential going for it.

In the end, I disagree with any attempt at preemptive analysis. I do keep on the hopeful/optimistic side with my posts but really I'm just projecting that maybe this could be a good or even great project, or that maybe this film, if it's not the best can be a building block towards better things down the road. But in no way am I judging or even making predications/analysis. Until it's released this is all speculation and there is no good way to analyze this project until the completed film is out.

I don't know if you're aware of this but I've already changed things. I killed Ben Linus.
--Sayid

[–] Frequency270 8 years ago

It only factors in fanboyism for initial theatrical release. And I'm factoring in very optomistically, because this is an intelligent series with a largely intelligent audience. I believe that the majority audience is not going to enjoy seeing someone re-inventing a perfectly good wheel. They want to see the original story, with whatever necessary cinematic concessions are needed for running time.

Preemptive analysis is fun. However, I think the real challenge is picking out winners, especially for predicting long time-frame winners.

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

The black Roland vs. Detta's hatred and racism has been flogged to death by now. I've noticed some gripes by new/non-regular posters that come to this board and only ever see the same argument, i'm guessing it's probably this one. It's a legitimate argument on both sides, and both sides have plenty of valid points. Sure Roland doesn't need to be white, Detta doesn't even need to be racist or even an amputee, possibly not even be black herself. There's ways to 'get around' almost everything in this adaptation that doesn't follow the source material as long as the heart and soul of TDT remains intact. Detta isn't even in TDT, and a sequel hasn't been greenlit yet. Given that this is a sequel/reboot as it is a new turn of the wheel and the horn of eld is in play, artistic liberties/license can do whatever they want with this DT and provide no explanation or even try and tie it in with the source material. Heck, we don't even have Susannah and Eddie (or Oy i'm presuming) in this movie.

Another poster brought up a little while ago the amount of pages that were dedicated to Detta and her racism (which isn't all that much out of 7 or so books), but also brought up that the amount of pages dedicated to Cort and how Roland earned his Gunslinger status is a lot less. It's not so much page count, it's about substance and what the fans would like to see. I would love to see Roland and Cort pan out in the W&G series, but if they drop it... How integral is it to Roland's story? Do we need to see it? How many arguments can be given that it is simply not necessary to be included as they can show these things in different dynamics? I personally would love to see this, but i'm sure it can be scrapped without ruining the story. I won't like it, as i LOVED reading it, just as i loved reading Detta in all her mahfah honky viciousness. I will wait to see how much artistic license has been used before forming an opinion about something i'm personally not really happy about due to the deviation in source material.

Is the integrity of the loop in the books going to be lost entirely or will the 'bones' remain intact? Are the bones enough? I'm curious as to what demographic they are aiming for. Is it the fans? I'm dubious. But i will be going to see this movie and i'm sure i'll enjoy at least parts of it, seeing it come to visual life will be amazing, though i'm sure i'll be going 'hey there's a bit of book 1, there's a bit of book 3, there's a bit of book 6, etc but will most likely feel it has fallen flat in regards to the altruism of the fans. What it boils down to imo is what the fans *want* to see, and how they intend on tackling this massive and histrionic story to fit into one movie and a broader demographic.

I like Frequency's mathematical approach, it draws some of the emotional caterwauling away from the argument. (preemptive analysis IS fun!)

[–] avildsen-610-19446 8 years ago

Someone is really, really into numbers.

[–] Kyumonryu 8 years ago

and in fact makes it a key dynamic in the story

How so? Because just stating it does not neccesarily makes it true.

...but they hung him anyway.
Hanged, Ami. Your father was not a tapestry.

[–] Frequency270 8 years ago

Have you read the second novel in the series at all?

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Hey, Frequency (was gonna shorten that to "Freak," but that might have been taken as an unintentional jab -it's just what I do)!

It's pretty safe to assume most of us have read the entire series. I'm on my 3rd go after over a decade, so long overdue! The argument many of us are posing was that no matter if Roland had been black, white, Asian or Latino, I'm pretty sure Detta would have been just as insane and insulting. The woman was insane. Yes, that insanity had been forged by a hate crime, and yes she had suffered discrimination of the most heinous kind at a time when it was at its worst in this country, but that hate and anger would have been prevalent under the best of circumstances. It's not as if seeing a black man as her captor/kidnapper would make her feel better about the situation. Honestly, seeing him as a black man might even make it worse (a race traitor palling around with a honky mahfah, for instance). That's not how it was written, but it was a very small section of the book that can be altered without affecting the story. Please, feel free to disagree, but I think you'll find many of us think this can work. If you disagree, that's fine. I mean, at least it'll save you $10 - $20 once it reaches the box office, right?

[–] Frequency270 8 years ago

I actually intend the abbreviated version of my nom de plume to be 'Freq', which phonetically sounds like 'freak'.

If this movie shows 7.5 or better, I'll go see it in theaters. Otherwise, I'll Netflix it.

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] Kyumonryu 8 years ago

Have you read the second novel in the series at all?

lol what a smug question. Did you come up with it all by your lonesome?

Obviously I read the novels, but please explain to me why the hate of Detta must be based on colour?

...but they hung him anyway.
Hanged, Ami. Your father was not a tapestry.

[–] Frequency270 8 years ago

You're shifting the goalpost of your initial question. Those of us interested in seeing a faithful adaptation of the original material, want to see the traditional Clint-Eastwood-meets-King-Arthur-meets-Stephen-King cowboy. We want to see the Gunslinger and Detta interaction as envisioned by veteran author Stephen King, not as re-imagined by a relatively new creator who is clearly trying to prove something with his freeness with the source.

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

Those of us interested in seeing a faithful adaptation of the original material

The mistake you make is in thinking that two particular groups, in this instance, must be mutually exclusive.

Most of us here wouldn't mind a 1:1 adaptation of the source material or a sequel or both.

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

But that isn't entirely crystal clear, Freq. I know the horse I've been beating is dead at this point, but let's get the whacking stick out again: Is it so unlikely that Idris Elba came forward and auditioned with the best embodiment of Roland they had seen? And Stephen King himself has even said that he doesn't care what color Roland is, so long as he can master the quick draw. If Stephen King sees no problem with a black Roland, why should we? God knows we'll still see a crazy Detta lashing out at a confused Roland, even if all her honky mahfahs are directed at Eddie (and again, she might even use it for what she'll perceive as a race traitor).

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

If Stephen King sees no problem with a black Roland

You are about to be informed that Stephen King was coerced into accepting Idris Elba by the bloodthirsty liberal mafia .

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] Frequency270 8 years ago

Not by me.

I would ordinarily bring down your sentence to quote, but the hardware I'm currently using makes that beyond awkward.

Damion Crowley
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you.--R.E.

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

It's painfully obvious that the Elba casting decision was made my idiots who wanted to accomplish some SJW agenda.

Don't you mean "PC"?

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

See, a lot of people agree with you, Gogo, but the thing is, other actors were being eyeballed for the part (Javier Bardem, Viggo Mortenson and Matthew McConaughey, for instance). So if they had an agenda to start out with, it wouldn't make any sense to even suggest white actors from the jump. I honestly believe that Idris Elba showed them something they weren't expecting, and it must have been a very good audition for them to abandon the "typical" Roland look. Besides, his appearance played a very minor role in the story as a whole, and had almost no impact on Roland as a person/gunslinger. It just doesn't seem the agenda theory holds that much weight.

[–] sugrnspyce4 8 years ago

See, a lot of people agree with you, Gogo, but the thing is, other actors were being eyeballed for the part (Javier Bardem, Viggo Mortenson and Matthew McConaughey, for instance). So if they had an agenda to start out with, it wouldn't make any sense to even suggest white actors from the jump.

I'm not quite sure if Viggo was being considered or in the running for the part, but many DT fans considered him their #1 pick for the role. The interesting thing about those we know for sure were considered for the role (Javier Bardem, Russell Crowe, Matthew McConaughey, and of course Idris Elba) is that their initial choice, Javier Bardem, is Spanish. Yet even though I remember many complaints about his accent, body type, height, and eye color, I don't remember ever seeing anybody complain about him being "the wrong race/color," or that his potential casting was "stunt casting," or due to a "PC agenda," "SJWs," etc. Now this isn't to say that those criticisms were never made about Bardem - I admit that it's possible they were - but I personally have never seen them, and I've been on this board for years. Just a very interesting observation.

I honestly believe that Idris Elba showed them something they weren't expecting, and it must have been a very good audition for them to abandon the "typical" Roland look.

This is exactly what I was thinking. It's always intriguing to me that some people continue to ignore or outright deny this possibility and go straight for the "PC/SJW" theory with such certainty.

Besides, his appearance played a very minor role in the story as a whole, and had almost no impact on Roland as a person/gunslinger. It just doesn't seem the agenda theory holds that much weight.

Agreed.

[–] dunnjanet 8 years ago

You may not have seen it but many many people complained about Bardem. He just did not look right not because he was Spanish but because he was too big and entirely the wrong body shape.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

As much as I respect Bardem as a great actor, I just couldn't get over his accent! I mean, he has a very strong Spanish accent that I'm having a little difficulty believing he'd be able to effectively conceal. Now, don't get me wrong. I have NO idea what people in Mid-World sound like, but since the language is very similar to English, I have a hard time believing their accent would be anything like his. So appearances aside, I'm glad the transition was made.

[–] sugrnspyce4 8 years ago

You may not have seen it but many many people complained about Bardem. He just did not look right not because he was Spanish but because he was too big and entirely the wrong body shape.

Oh yeah, we're on the same page; that's basically what I was saying. You're absolutely right - the vast majority of the complaints I saw regarding Bardem were about his body type/body size, height, and accent. What I find interesting is the difference between the kinds of complaints - and the extent of the complaints - about Javier Bardem as Roland (his body type/size, height, eye color, and accent) and those about Idris Elba as Roland (his body type/size, height, and eye color, along with his race and skin color, declarations of his casting being part of a “PC agenda,” “influenced by SJWs,” etc.), even though many would consider both actors people of color.

I also think it's kind of funny that not many people have complained about Idris's British accent, especially when so many people had things to say about Javier's. But maybe they think Idris hides his better? Maybe people generally consider British accents more "acceptable"? Who knows.

Anyway, those were just some of my observations.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

 I wasn't aware of the Javier complaints? As far as body type goes, Idris has a good 20kgs of muscle on Javier and is built like a brick sh*thouse. Javier's accent in No Country was without fault imo, well his performance all round was good enough to secure him the oscar for it. As far as accolades go, my preference is the SAGS which he won there too. These awards are debatable but there's no denying that the studio's will capitalise on them, TDT trailer leak is definitely doing it what with the the big "academy award winner" above McConaughey's name... If both leads had this distinction it certainly wouldn't have harmed the promotion of TDT. Also, as many nods i give to Idris for 'stoic and badass', Anton Chigurh is the epitome of this.

I could only imagine debate that Bardem is hispanic and Roland is meant to be caucasian . I guess some people would have a problem with anyone who was cast, even the monumental Daniel Day Lewis.

I would have backed Javier!! 

[–] sugrnspyce4 8 years ago

 I wasn't aware of the Javier complaints? As far as body type goes, Idris has a good 20kgs of muscle on Javier and is built like a brick sh*thouse. Javier's accent in No Country was without fault imo, well his performance all round was good enough to secure him the oscar for it. As far as accolades go, my preference is the SAGS which he won there too. These awards are debatable but there's no denying that the studio's will capitalise on them, TDT trailer leak is definitely doing it what with the the big "academy award winner" above McConaughey's name... If both leads had this distinction it certainly wouldn't have harmed the promotion of TDT. Also, as many nods i give to Idris for 'stoic and badass', Anton Chigurh is the epitome of this.

I could only imagine debate that Bardem is hispanic and Roland is meant to be caucasian . I guess some people would have a problem with anyone who was cast, even the monumental Daniel Day Lewis.

I would have backed Javier!! 

Yeah, I definitely remember complaints about Javier Bardem when it was announced he was slated to play Roland. I can't really speak for anyone else here who might've been around here at that time, but I wasn't familiar with his work besides No Country for Old Men, so I couldn't really say with any certainty that he was wrong for Roland. But knowing how intense he was as Anton Chigurh, I was curious enough about how he would approach the role to give him a chance, and because I was excited to see the production happening at all. I wasn't surprised that the studio would want a fairly recognizable name attached to the movie(s) though (and of course "Academy Award Winner [insert name here]" always looks good in the credits and promos), so it made sense that the filmmakers would pick someone like him.

But yeah, as I said, I personally didn't see those particular arguments, but considering what we've seen with the current production, I wouldn't be surprised if there were. And I agree - I've said many times before that people would've complained no matter what actor the filmmakers cast as Roland. Unfortunately, you can't please everybody.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

Described, looked, etc. Crucial to his character/upbringing/opportunities in life?

No.

It wasn't as if the titular tower itself wouldn't open unless Roland looked like a fusion of Eastwood and King.

Let's not forget Detta Walker's disdain

Let's not forget that Detta was placed into bondage by a man that (her words) raped her mind, rivals her own intelligence, and is "collaborating" with a "honky mafah". There's plenty of reason for her to be furious.

By making Roland black, they are changing a heck of a lot.

Negatory.

It's offensive to see so many people swoop in and just say, "Meh, it doesn't change much."

This coming from a guy that called for bloodshed in a situation where none is necessary? Surely, your feelings were trounced upon.

http://tinyurl.com/gse5cn3

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .