MovieChat Forums > The Dark Tower (2017) Discussion > Detta Would Hate a Black Roland Just as ...

Detta Would Hate a Black Roland Just as Much as a White Roland


I keep responding to threads, and keep having to restate the same point about Detta.

Her bigotry does not define her. Her general hate is the more important aspect of her character. If Roland was black she wouldn't suddenly start liking him. She is a ball of hate, indiscriminate of race.

Her arc is not defined by Roland and Detta overcoming their differences. She never overcomes these differences; she is consolidated into the character of Susannah who has the strongest aspects of both Detta and Odetta. Detta doesn't have a character arc. The person who is all three (Susannah, Detta, and Odetta) has the arc.

Roland's white-ness has little bearing on how Detta perceives the world. It is simply how she chooses to attack Roland and her new surroundings on the beach of the Western Sea.

If Roland was black she would find something else to hate about him.

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There is no evidence of that in the books. Her racism only extends to white people, namely men. Odetta does in fact have an arc, it extends back into her childhood and young adulthood. It explains why there was a Detta and why there was a need for the two to become Susannah. I have heard rumors that all racism will be removed from the movies, even changing how she became crippled (she will have legs but be paralyzed from the waist down) and they will be watering down the character all the way around to give more screen time to Roland.

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There is no evidence of that in the books. Her racism only extends to white people, namely men.

Leaving aside racism, do you honestly think that her hatred only stops at men and particularly white men? What about the Aunt she hates so much? The one who constantly appears in her thoughts and whom she spends so much time complaining about? Do you envision a world in which Detta was person who fit in with any sector of society? I don't. Odetta "disappeared" for days or weeks at a time, but I don't think that she was forging relationships and being a productive member of any community.

She hates Roland more for the danger he represents than her perception of his race.

Odetta does in fact have an arc, it extends back into her childhood and young adulthood. It explains why there was a Detta and why there was a need for the two to become Susannah.

It is all a part of the same character. Detta, as the aspect of a larger character, feeds into the larger arc. Detta, if taken alone, is a flat character with no discernable growth. She remains flat and constant.

I have heard rumors that all racism will be removed from the movies, even changing how she became crippled (she will have legs but be paralyzed from the waist down) and they will be watering down the character all the way around to give more screen time to Roland.

I have heard rumors of all sorts of things, but nothing conclusive and nothing worthy of response until they are verified or dismissed. I've seen art that would seem to indicate a Susannah with legs, but that art is years old and not fully indicative that they would have chosen to go that route.

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Odetta Susannah Holmes is a FICTIONAL character, her hate extends only as far as her creator, Stephen King, allows it. Yes she did have some animosity toward her aunt due to Odetta accidentally breaking the blue forspecial plate. Yes, much of her trepidation and anger as Detta comes from the fact that she views Roland as dangerous. It also stems from the fact that he is....WHITE. Detta has a built in hatred of all whites, specifically men. Add that to hear fear and mistrust of Roland and it becomes a big part of who she is. Detta is fairly consistent but she is not the flat character that you make her out to be, because she isn't a separate character. Shies an extension of Odetta's subconscious due to the era in which she grew up and the two accidents that irrevocably changed her life forever (the guy that dropped the brick on her head and pushed her in front of the train). Detta was an extension of Odetta thereby making her a fairly rounded character. The racism is a big enough part of Odetta/Detta/Susannah that people are upset that it may be watered down or excluded. That is why there is so much turmoil over the casting decisions that have been made thus far.

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Odetta Susannah Holmes is a FICTIONAL character, her hate extends only as far as her creator, Stephen King, allows it.

I don't think this is at issue. I can only speak in an interpretive literary approach, insofar as hermeneutic retrospection allows me in the case of race reversal. Supplanting King's original description with a black Roland, I can only say that her characterization holds steady.

Yes she did have some animosity toward her aunt due to Odetta accidentally breaking the blue forspecial plate. Yes, much of her trepidation and anger as Detta comes from the fact that she views Roland as dangerous. It also stems from the fact that he is....WHITE. Detta has a built in hatred of all whites, specifically men.

I won't discount that her perception if race is not a factor, merely that it is not the extent of her character. She as described as more of a caricature (hardly grounds for being considered a dynamic character), and her vitriol extends beyond general bigotry. When taken in context of her dual personality (prior to the introduction of Susannah), the pair fears Roland more than Eddie, and this is due entirely to her/their perception of Roland from a non-racial perspective. Odetta on the surface has more cause to fear whites having undergone myriad humiliations and degradation in Oxford town and elsewhere. When combined into Susannah, the racial fear disappears. All is well. Fear is gone, and Detta is only called upon for her strength. Her strength is not described in racial terms, but rather in terms that best describe a hateful person. Why does the racial fear suddenly disappear? Is this something one observes in real people, such a complete turnaround? Why does it never come up again except in flourishes of character (never in a discriminatory way)? Is it lazy writing? Is it fast-tracking a character for future utility? Or is it, the more likely case, that her racism is not the most important aspect of her character?
Detta is fairly consistent but she is not the flat character that you make her out to be, because she isn't a separate character. Shies an extension of Odetta's subconscious due to the era in which she grew up and the two accidents that irrevocably changed her life forever (the guy that dropped the brick on her head and pushed her in front of the train). Detta was an extension of Odetta thereby making her a fairly rounded character.

You can remove her and find her to be flat or see her as a person with a split personality and find her more well-rounded, but either way her perception of race does not define her. Both of these characters have had to live through the rampant racism of the 1930s-1960s, but locating Detta's specific issues to those of race is limiting. She is more than just a bigot, she is a vicious misanthrope. She hates in general. Your characterization of Detta would make her an even less dynamic character, by limiting her rage to race specifically.
The racism is a big enough part of Odetta/Detta/Susannah that people are upset that it may be watered down or excluded. That is why there is so much turmoil over the casting decisions that have been made thus far.

It need not go away entirely. Eddie is still a component of the story. She could direct racial epithets at him while retaining other possible judgments for Roland. It could actually make the character more multifaceted in her verbiage and vitriol.

Even if Roland, Detta, and Eddie were all black it doesn't change the core dynamic--Detta hates. Detta will find any outlet with which to spit her venom.

Think about all of the attempts Roland and Eddie try to make to assuage her fears about poisoning (or raping or assaulting) her. She has a handy excuse for everything they say. I cannot believe that her canny character would just suddenly be OK with her new situation, regardless of the racial breakdown of the characters. Detta's defense mechanism is pure, unmitigated, unadulterated hatred.

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Lets just agree to disagree.

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Lets just agree to disagree.

Sure. You have your own vision, and I have my own.

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"Odetta Susannah Holmes is a FICTIONAL character, her hate extends only as far as her creator, Stephen King, allows it."

So only Stephen King can comment on what a character thinks or feels? Everyone better stop reading Shakespeare!!!

And also, King SUPPORTED this casting choice. So if he supports it..... by your logic, his opinion trumps yours. Case closed.

If racism plays such an important role in the entire series (not books), then explain how and why, cause I remember the Dark Tower as an adventure quest. Not a social commentary on racism.

Grant discovered raptor eggs in Jurassic Park

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Oh, good lord. She became schizo because a WHITE GUY dropped a brick on her head for lulz .. and she became crippled because the SAME WHITE GUY pushed her in front of a subway train - for lulz.


She might not have known it was the same guy, but she knew it was a WHITE GUY both times, which GIVES CREDENCE TO HER RACISM. And no, I don't blame Detta/Odetta for her opinion on whites! But to change all that totally changes her character, AND her relationship with both a WHITE Roland and a WHITE Eddie. She has EVERY REASON to not trust them, given the background she has in the books.

Just like a white character may not trust any Muslim characters after, say, being gang-raped by Muslims in Cologne.


But in Hollyweird world, there is no justification for racism, it's just all fool and bluster and only comes from whites, never from "people of colour".

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She might not have known it was the same guy, but she knew it was a WHITE GUY both times

When did she have any indication that anybody, regardless of race, dropped a brick on her? Mort made it seem like an accident, and there were no witnesses.

She has EVERY REASON to not trust them

She has every reason not to trust people who tore her out of her own world and into another. Would she suddenly be OK with it if one of them was black?

Roland at least talked to Eddie before he drew him from 1987.

This is probably the point you miss: Roland realized that Detta was so crazy as soon as he entered her mind that he did not waste time reasoning with her. DETTA DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS WHITE AND WAS ALREADY REJECTING HIM.

I was wrong about this last paragraph. I am admitting it here.

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[deleted]

I've been informed that I was wrong about this.

It's been a while since I have read DotT, but she sensed a "honky" in her mind, and that it was a "whiteness" she felt.

I am wrong about this instance, and perhaps her entire justification for hate.

I'll leave this point alone in the future, but I still feel that her defining point is hatred--even over race. This is something you are free to comment on without my further input, unless egregious misdirection, misconstruction, or name-calling otherwise necessitates.

Yes, this harms my point and the major justification of this thread, but perhaps you might learn from my errors and base your future arguments in fact instead of name-calling and tired rhetoric.

Please stop calling people "rasict" or "SJW" unless there is explicit and clear reason to do so.

I am admitting my mistake, and asking for moderate, clear heads to prevail. I advise you to join me in rationality, even if I have spoken in error. Please be civil, and hold reason-based debate. We can be better.

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There are other ways to make Detta loathe Roland other than skin color. This isn't some insurmountable hurdle .

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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[deleted]

It's been a while since I have read DotT, but she sensed a "honky" in her mind, and that it was a "whiteness" she felt.
Now that you mention it, I do remember this. (I'm currently reading the series again and am on DotT, but I haven't gotten to O/Detta/Susannah's story arc yet.) And while you may have been wrong about the motive behind her hate for Roland, I still think it's possible for her to hate a black Roland just as much as a white Roland (hating Roland for being a "race traitor" vs. hating Roland simply for being white).

This short article elaborates upon the idea a bit more.
http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/why-idris-elba-being-black-makes-the-dark-tower-better.php

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Well, I wrote a reply stating the same thing before noticing this one and deleting mine. lol Anyway...

I assume you've gotten through the Odetta/Detta/Susannah arc in the book. Can you tell me if her Detta personality hated Odetta for being a race traitor as well? I haven't read the books in awhile myself and was hoping you could clear this up for me.

Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see

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Can you tell me if her Detta personality hated Odetta for being a race traitor as well?


Detta didn't really touch on that, no.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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Well, I wrote a reply stating the same thing before noticing this one and deleting mine. lol Anyway...

I assume you've gotten through the Odetta/Detta/Susannah arc in the book. Can you tell me if her Detta personality hated Odetta for being a race traitor as well? I haven't read the books in awhile myself and was hoping you could clear this up for me.
Yes, I've definitely gotten past that arc (currently finishing up DT:VII as we speak), but yes, Captain_Wesker is right. As far as I remember, Detta didn't get on Odetta's case about that. I'm thinking that might've been because neither personality knew of the other's existence (at least, not consciously) until Roland forced them to acknowledge each other toward the end of DT:II. But had Detta known about Odetta before the merging, it wouldn't have surprised me if she did think of Odetta as a race traitor.

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Yes, that last bit was what I was basically thinking when asking about this. Thanks to you both for the clarification. :)

Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see

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No problem! :)

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I can think of a few characteristics which Detta would hate Roland for even if his melanin type/count differed.

1). His "alien" nature. His way of speaking and mannerisms are foreign to people from Earth. much less someone that pounces on weakness/"otherness" the way Detta does. Then there are his blue eyes, which are highly unique among people of direct African descent on Earth: these could be a cosmetic feature she latches onto early on.

2). His authoritative nature. It is probably a given that Detta really hates law enforcment, and Roland is nothing if not a marshal of another color.

3. His collaboration with Eddie. "Race traitor", anyone?

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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No she wouldn't. Detta's reason for her strong hatred of Roland when she first sees him, and throughout the events of the Drawing of the three, is because Roland is white and she is racist.
Anything else in a film would be just an invented change for the film forced by bad casting decisions.

Unless they make Detta White, thereby keeping the reason she hates him at first sight. Just reverses the dynamic (just make Mort black to back that up, and in the context of all the changes in the film that's no more of a change).

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No she wouldn't. Detta's reason for her strong hatred of Roland when she first sees him, and throughout the events of the Drawing of the three, is because Roland is white and she is racist.

I disagree. She is most certainly bigoted, but it is not her defining characteristic. She is a hateful creature and routinely invents new reasons to be upset. She concocts in her mind that Roland and Eddie have been plotting to poison her, assault her. She has it in her mind that they have tried (or succeeded) at raping her. Her mind invents all of these reasons to hate, and it is not simply because they are white.

What do you imagine would happen if, hypothetically, in the books, Roland and Detta were both black? Do you imagine that Detta would just go with it and be OK?

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Her hatred is so strong for both Roland and Eddie because they are white and she is racist.
If both she and Roland were black in the book the dynamic would be totally different, she wouldn't have the same level of hatred for him.
Roland and Eddie being white is important to the character dynamic of the group, something that will sadly be destroyed in this because of awful casting.

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Her hatred is so strong for both Roland and Eddie because they are white and she is racist.

I contend that she hates in general. Yes, she hates white people, but I doubt that she loves much of anything other than inflicting pain and suffering. I would also argue that her main reason for acting out in such an extreme way is that she has just been pulled into a literal new world and reacts more vehemently than she probably does Earth-side.

If both she and Roland were black in the book the dynamic would be totally different, she wouldn't have the same level of hatred for him.

I agree that it wouldn't be the exact same level of hatred. I do not think it would be much diminished.

Roland and Eddie being white is important to the character dynamic of the group

Can you please explain how? As I see it, the only component race plays in the story at all is for one third of one book. How does race inform the dynamic for the rest of the series? Roland comes from a world of undefined racial identity, whereas Eddie's world is much more defined. If he was of another race there would be a variety of permutations and implications one might consider, but his story could come through largely unchanged if he was black, latino, asian, pacific islander, etc. I'm not advocating such a change, but I don't quite grasp your assertion that his (and Roland's) whiteness inform the character dynamic of the Ka Tet.

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while ppl are taking things directly from the books, you're trying to create a tangent that fits the casting choice.

which is akin to a rewriting of her backstory, a voluntary choice made by the studio , a rewrite which the HUGE majority of DTower fans are against.

can you perhaps answer why a rewriting of these elements of racism is considered advantageous to the movie?

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while ppl are taking things directly from the books, you're trying to create a tangent that fits the casting choice.

Acknowledged. However, since Elba's casting has opened my mind to the plausible trajectories of the storytelling, I'm examining a hermeneutic possibility for the book/film series at large. This tangent, as you frame it, works within the structure of both the books and the films as far as narrative structure goes. Upon examination, Roland's race matters little within his own context and within the context of Detta's perception of him.

which is akin to a rewriting of her backstory, a voluntary choice made by the studio , a rewrite which the HUGE majority of DTower fans are against.

I disagree that it is a rewriting of her backstory. Her backstory can remain intact with no revision. Furthermore, her backstory can remain intact with little impact on the main story or conflict within the main story. If the fans worry about a rewrite, which is a natural thing to fear as films change these things all the time, they need not consider it a given at this point. Her backstory requires no changes with a black Roland instead of a white Roland.

can you perhaps answer why a rewriting of these elements of racism is considered advantageous to the movie?

As stated above in this post, a change in Roland's race does not constitute change to O/Detta/Susannah's backstory. If the racially charged epithets (once she is drawn) are what you really mean, then you must realize that they would still exist if there still exists a white Eddie. While I will not argue that it would be advantageous or disadvantageous for the movie to remove the racial epithets Detta hurls at both Roland and Eddie (as I can hardly argue or prognosticate what changes would make the immaculate book series "better"), there exists the possibility of a multifaceted approach for Detta's wrath in directing her ire at a black Roland along with a still white Eddie. Such an approach might add more mystique to her portrayal and offer more opportunities for the actress who secures the role. A deeper investigation into the wily, canny, chary mind of Detta Walker. This could, quite possibly, be a more interesting take on the character.

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you're saying by fudging and rewriting bit and pieces, we might still get the same Detta and group dynamics as we have in the books.

while by not changing the race, we would have exactly achieved that goal already. It's akin to creating a problem out of none, and demanding praise for solving it.

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It's akin to creating a problem out of none, and demanding praise for solving it.


That fact that this dynamic utterly escapes them should tell you everything you need to know about the paucity of their "position".

I honestly don't know how you could bother arguing with such staggering idiocy.

But I suppose someone has to do it.

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I honestly don't know how you could bother arguing with such staggering idiocy.

Here, read this. Learn how to partake in social debate responsibly.
https://medium.com/@SeanBlanda/the-other-side-is-not-dumb-2670c1294063#.o7sayxsan

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you're saying by fudging and rewriting bit and pieces, we might still get the same Detta and group dynamics as we have in the books.

while by not changing the race, we would have exactly achieved that goal already. It's akin to creating a problem out of none, and demanding praise for solving it.

No, I'm saying that there is no problem. It doesn't change the dynamics.

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No, you don't. I don't think anyone would mind if you refrained from offering your opinion in every thread. Your point is subjective and people have the prerogative to disagree with you or simply ignore your posts. Besides, we don't even know if Odetta is in the film.

Nobody has to respond or offer their opinions on these boards, yet we somehow feel compelled to do so. Isn't that odd?

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[deleted]

You asked the question hun, isn't that odd. ;)

Peculiar, no doubt.

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The original posting is *beep*

Odetta Walker is portrayed as a civil rights activist. Race was VERY MUCH in her consciousness and awareness. But she is the more gentile/kind side of her dual personality.

Her other half DETTA was conscious of race on a whole other level. She is the ANGER that could not come from Odetta. She goes out of her way to torment white men and make them suffer. Something that Odetta cannot do.

Odetta/DETTA gets pulled into Roland's world as DETTA. She tries to KILL The Gunslinger And Eddie because they are white. it is imperative for DETTA to see Roland and Eddie as two "whiteys" for the story to make sense.

Idris Elba is a wonderful actor, but do not do him the disservice of his major misasting. Race actually does play a major part in this particular storyline. This is not a place for colorblind casting. It actually will end up being a disservice to the actress who plays Susannah.... Aka Odetta/DETTA.


To be honest, I hope this movie never gets made. I'm quite happy with the story as I know it.



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it is imperative for DETTA to see Roland and Eddie as two "whiteys" for the story to make sense.

Sure, you have to throw everything else in all 7+ books out the window if Detta doesn't see two honky mahfahs. The world is thrown in to mass confusion and the beams collapse! O Discordia!

I am not discounting that race is a huge factor in the shared history of Detta and Odetta, but race is not their only experience. Detta came into being when an unseen assailant dropped a brick on Odetta and was more strongly reinforced when another unseen assailant pushed Odetta onto the A train tracks. Detta does represent Odetta's anger, but it is not solely racially motivated anger. Detta is not some golem on Odetta's behalf, merely attacking oppressors. She exists as another person entirely, and that person is motivated by general hatred--and that hatred does not stop at race.

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Akiva Goldsmith? Is that you? Did you just write that post?

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Akiva Goldsmith? Is that you? Did you just write that post?

I used to think that was his name too.

If I was Akiva Goldsman I would have a lot of money for creating largely mediocre work.

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I just re-read Drawing of the Three. The thing that most infuriates and scares Detta is that Roland entered into her and took possession of her body. Which is pretty similar to a rape. That is reason enough for her to despise him. Won't matter that he's black. That's irrelevant.

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There's that, and also the fact that he, unlike Eddie, has an intimate idea of the duality of her personality. Such a bond is unnervingly close for her comfort.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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Yep. Exactly. The idea that somebody knows about both Odetta and Detta is terrifying to her. Her loathing of Roland is much more based on that. He scares her too which for somebody acting out as much as Detta does is even more unnerving for her.

Her bitching at Roland and Eddie as honkys is also pretty superficial. She's calling them any names she can think of. She also accuses them of having a sexual relationship - so her insults aren't to be taken seriously.

I see no reason why a black actress wouldn't be able to create that oppositional relationship - when she is Detta - with Roland played by a black actor.

These complaints are ridiculous and reading through them, it's impossible not to see them as largely racist. It's more important that the actor playing Roland have the range to handle the character and the voice to manage that awkward dialogue and Roland's stilted way of speaking. Which Elba has shown he can do.

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[deleted]

Additionally, really deep down...she is jealous to the point of insecurity. A good chunk of the reason she hates Roland's guts is because she is aware of just how much a threat his intellect is to her own.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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And while she must have directed some "honky mahfahs" at Roland himself, if you read the book, she always thought of him as The Really Bad Man. That was the predominant theme when we got to see her thoughts. She always referred to Roland as The Really Bad Man. That won't be lost at all.

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[deleted]

I hope you don't mind me bumping this thread, as you've made good points that are most certainly worth sharing.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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I hope you don't mind me bumping this thread, as you've made good points that are most certainly worth sharing.

I don't mind the continuing conversation, but I will not continue to defend this point due to my acknowledged error. I still believe the majority of my argument to be true, but I made some inaccurate points.

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Thank you .

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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