For those of you that feel that this is a movie that has come off the rails due to a "PC" agenda, or that the producers are submitting to the demand of the "SJWs", can you show an example of a big budget movie that has been successful for having done so? Why would Hollywood producers want to throw money at a project if they didn't have faith that they will get it back and make a profit?
shareIt doesn't have to make sense, it only has to feed their persecution complex.
I find Oscar Bait infinitely more interesting than ticket bait
I think that a lot of it comes from all that is going on in the world right now. If you happen to have white skin you are automatically viewed as a racist. Black lives matter going around persecuting white police officers for shooting black men (even if it was warranted) yet refusing to go after their own when they kill each other. On top of all of this there was the #oscarssowhite debacle. It is always possible that the casting director as well as the director and others involved with this movie cast Elba as a means of combating the supposed over abundance of white people, mainly men, in movies under the guise of an innovative casting decision. It is also possible that he gave the best possible audition and that he will do the part justice regardless of race. All angles should be considered until the whole truth comes out or the movie comes out, whichever comes first.
shareI think that a lot of it comes from all that is going on in the world right now. If you happen to have white skin you are automatically viewed as a racist. Black lives matter going around persecuting white police officers for shooting black men (even if it was warranted) yet refusing to go after their own when they kill each other. On top of all of this there was the #oscarssowhite debacle. It is always possible that the casting director as well as the director and others involved with this movie cast Elba as a means of combating the supposed over abundance of white people, mainly men, in movies under the guise of an innovative casting decision. It is also possible that he gave the best possible audition and that he will do the part justice regardless of race. All angles should be considered until the whole truth comes out or the movie comes out, whichever comes first.
What do you disagree with? I didn't say for sure whether or not telecasting was PC, I just indicated that it might have been with a list of potential reasons why.
shareSorry for the typos, my tablet is nuts.
shareSorry for the typos, my tablet is nuts.
What do you disagree with? I didn't say for sure whether or not telecasting was PC, I just indicated that it might have been with a list of potential reasons why.
Getting into that kind of discussion can cause drama and melodrama that I do not need in my life. I may have been too overt or glib in my initial response in regards to the black lives matter and oscars issues, but I have kept up with both of them and feel like, if anything PC was involved in the casting of Roland, then it was because of these issues.
shareGetting into that kind of discussion can cause drama and melodrama that I do not need in my life.
I don't think this film is trying to be PC. I think it's snatching up a big name actor to draw the crowds and using racism to defend against the few real fans who can see what a terrible choice it is.
shareI don't think this film is trying to be PC. I think it's snatching up a big name actor to draw the crowds and using racism to defend against the few real fans who can see what a terrible choice it is.
How many people even read books anymore? Not that many. The majority of the people who end up seeing this movie won't have read the books, and some will never even have heard of them. They need a big name actor to draw those people. For some reason that's beyond me they went with Elba. Maybe because he's due a big role like Jackman with Wolverine. If they only cate rto the book fans they're cutting out the majority of their potential audience and THAT'S not very profitable is it?
shareHow many people even read books anymore? Not that many. The majority of the people who end up seeing this movie won't have read the books, and some will never even have heard of them.
They need a big name actor to draw those people. For some reason that's beyond me they went with Elba. Maybe because he's due a big role like Jackman with Wolverine.
If they only cate rto the book fans they're cutting out the majority of their potential audience and THAT'S not very profitable is it?
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How are those movies PC?
shareI do not know your definition of success, but "Avatar", "The Day After Tomorrow" and "John Q" come to mind.
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But since you clarified your question, "I am Legend"
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I don't think that this is an issue of political correctness but rather of celebrity grabbing. I really can't think of an example of a PC movie, not even sure what that means. I have no problem with a black guy being cast as Johnny Storm (no interest in fantastic4 though so haven't seen it) but if his biological sister is meant to be white then that might be an example of PC casting? Since it makes no sense.
shareOf course, you define "real fans" as "people who agree with me".
I find Oscar Bait infinitely more interesting than ticket bait
No, I mean people who have read the books, many of whom are more than a little disappointed in the casting. The majority of viewers probably won't have read the books and won't care.
shareWhat I hate is that people always juimp to the "PC" conclusion when isn't a white hetero male being cast in something. God forbid a movie casts a POC, woman or LGBT person in their movie.
We accept the love we think we deserve
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Personally I don't care what someone's race, gender, creed, or sexuality is, normally, if they fit the part and can act. What bothers me is when a director picks someone for blatant PC reasons (not saying that happened here, just making a generalization) and they are completely wrong for the role or suck at acting. Sure there are bigots out there who believe otherwise, but I am not one of them.
Now here is a question for consideration: lets us suppose that a remake of Gone With the Wind were in the works and Idris Elba were cast in the role of Rhett Butler, would any of you approve? Why or why not? Would it be considered racist to disapprove? Only those familiar with the subject matter of said movie/book respond please.
Considering Gone With the Wind takes place at a time when chattel slavery was legal, explaining why Rhett Butler is not only a free man in confederate territory, but able to marry a Caucasian woman when that was expressly illegal would drastically change the narrative. The only impact Roland's race has to the narrative in the Dark Tower is his initial relationship w/ Odetta. Therefore, your example is not really relevant.
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I've actually read them all twice. If you honestly believe that the character of Roland is primarily defined by the color of his skin, then the story and the themes obviously went over your head. Honestly, I don't care if the movie bombs. As a fan of the series, I'm just excited to see it finally get made.
shareConsider Roland is supposed to be bloody white I think it's fairly obvious to see the PC agenda going on in this film.
Of course I imagine you are one of those people who cry racist and whitewashing the second they change a character to white.
Consider Roland is supposed to be bloody white I think it's fairly obvious to see the PC agenda going on in this film.
It's rarely successful, doesn't mean they will stop pushing as much PC casting as possible (hence Elba ever being brought up at all for Roland). Studios rarely learn.
You would think they'd learn from the Fantastic 4 debacle, maybe when this tanks the message will sink in. Just a shame they will be dragging the Dark Tower name down with it.
It's rarely successful, doesn't mean they will stop pushing as much PC casting as possible (hence Elba ever being brought up at all for Roland). Studios rarely learn.
You would think they'd learn from the Fantastic 4 debacle, maybe when this tanks the message will sink in. Just a shame they will be dragging the Dark Tower name down with it.
Spider gets upset over any change. He's been on this board for years, saying how if they don't make seven movies for seven books it'll be a disaster. He lives off the anger.
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Listen to them—the children of the night. What music they make!
Because if they cut it down to what they have planned it will be a disaster. It will be over simplified and hacked to bits.
Though combine that with the truly sh*tty casting for Roland and this is doomed to fail.
I'll ignore your totally idiotic comment about myself, and stick to the point.
Studios believe that PC casting pays off, which is why unfortunately it keeps happening. But it never has the effect braindead execs like to think it will.
With this all it does is drive away a lot of the core fanbase (the ones have standards for how this should be done) and considering this is a hard sell as a concept to general audiences anyway, they probably could do with the word of mouth from the core fanbase.
Studios believe that PC casting pays off, which is why unfortunately it keeps happening. But it never has the effect braindead execs like to think it will.
Yep. Though I still don't know why people are calling this an instance of PC casting; there would at least be some merit to their accusations if the filmmakers had sat down and gone, "Hey, you know what? Let's make Roland black!! yay diversity! *high-five* Now, who should we get?"
when instead they'd considered a few potential actors who, except for Elba, were all white, and eventually decided that of those few they were considering and who were available (i.e. not of all the actors in Hollywood) he was the best suited for the role, and apparently won them over enough that they were willing to change the small matter of Roland's skin colour, taking it on as a narrative challenge to see how that would change and perhaps make more profound his later interactions with Detta.
That's not PC casting. That's casting.
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It's the question that drives us. I know the answer is 42.
What exactly are you basing the argument that Elba is the best for the part on?
He certainly doesn't look the part, physically he is too big and the wrong race for the role. As far as his acting ability goes he's played no roles that would back up his suitability for Roland (he's really a pretty bad actor to be honest, his roles are barely different) and he's never had a successful film starring role to his name.
What is true is that his name is one that's thrown about by his idiotic fanbase for any role going, he's the go to guy for pointless race change casting ideas.
If Elba is truly the best choicethen they clearly weren't looking very hard. And his casting actively destroys the most interesting character dynamic in the books.
But at least it will make social justice warriors happy.
He certainly doesn't look the part
physically he is too big
he's played no roles that would back up his suitability for Roland
A lot of people in Hollywood like pushing an agenda, so much so that they can't get it through their heads that PC casting doesn't work. Just because something is not successful doesn't mean people always learn.
share"What I hate is that people always juimp to the "PC" conclusion when isn't a white hetero male being cast in something. God forbid a movie casts a POC, woman or LGBT person in their movie."
It would be FINE if it were an ORIGINAL WORK, or the source material CALLED for a POC, woman, or LGBT type. Sheesh.
To take a work and rape it for "social justice issues", or just to have "a bankable actor" are both terrible.
And yes, since this is so sudden, I DO believe that it has something to do with oscarssowhite (hey, let's bully Hollywood into reserving more jobs for blacks! After all, if all leads this year are played by black people, a black person is bound to win an oscar next year!)
It would be FINE if it were an ORIGINAL WORK, or the source material CALLED for a POC, woman, or LGBT type. Sheesh.Given that the Roland-O/Detta/Susannah dilemma is easily solvable, why is Elba's casting "not fine" to you?
To take a work and rape it for "social justice issues", or just to have "a bankable actor" are both terrible.I do agree that choosing an actor for reasons other than "this actor has the skills and the presence to portray the all the complexities of Roland" is terrible. It would be a disservice to the character and the story, as well as to old and potential fans IMO. But if I had to make a choice between those two reasons for the casting, I'd lean toward "having a bankable actor" - though if we're being honest, McConaughey is probably the more bankable of the two leads. But even with that said, no one but the filmmakers knows for sure exactly what their reasons were and we might never find out, making anything we come up with purely speculation. But I do find it interesting that those most vocally opposed to Elba's casting usually don't list "he's a talented actor" as a possible reason the filmmakers chose him.
And yes, since this is so sudden, I DO believe that it has something to do with oscarssowhite (hey, let's bully Hollywood into reserving more jobs for blacks! After all, if all leads this year are played by black people, a black person is bound to win an oscar next year!)I wouldn't necessarily call Elba's casting "sudden" considering that we've seen two previous actors (three counting McConaughey) offered the role of Roland during the years this has been in development.
As for #OscarsSoWhite having something to do with Elba's casting, I have to disagree. 1) Rumors of Elba being the frontrunner for Roland surfaced months before the Oscar nominees were announced and the hashtag was resurrected, and 2) Although #OscarsSoWhite was created by a black woman and black people are the most vocal about it, the hashtag is not exclusively for black people. It was created to call for more representation in Hollywood for all POC. And lastly, how does pointing out an obvious lack of diversity and calling for more opportunities and representation for POC = "bullying"?
Were there open auditions and other actors considered for the part or did they solely go after Elba?
I don't know if that was the case or not, but if Elba (who bears no physical resemblance to the character in question) was the only actor considered then I would think there was an agenda involved.
Were there open auditions and other actors considered for the part or did they solely go after Elba?
To the people who are cool with a black Roland, and a male Susannah ....
How about a Fat Albert and the Gang movie with an all-Chinese cast, then?
Let's turn Shaft into an East Indian.
Gods forbid any of THOSE characters are made white.
How about we reimagine Rambo as a flaming homosexual cross-dressing chimpanzee?
As far as PC = money goes, how much money did they honestly think they would get for redoing Ghostbusters (which no one asked for) with an all-female cast (which no one asked for)?
I won't even bother _pirating_ either of these stupid messes.
How about we reimagine Rambo as a flaming homosexual cross-dressing chimpanzee?
"Sounds like you've got a script to write! Hurry! What are you doing on this board when you should be off writing First Blood 5: Dunston Checks Out?!?"
Damn thing is, you may be right - that movie would probably be quite popular, just for the silliness of the concept. Hmm, make-a-me some money here, where's mah typewriter paper?
(Though wasn't Dunston an Orang-utan? Those just aren't action oriented enough, like chimps. Ooops, ape racism. #oscarssochimp ..... Oh, maybe I'll just go trash Discworld and turn the Librarian into a horse instead.)
Damn thing is, you may be right - that movie would probably be quite popular, just for the silliness of the concept. Hmm, make-a-me some money here, where's mah typewriter paper?
Though wasn't Dunston an Orang-utan?
Oh, maybe I'll just go trash Discworld and turn the Librarian into a horse instead.
Oh, maybe I'll just go trash Discworld and turn the Librarian into a horse instead.
I've only read one Discworld book. Based on my brief time in Pratchett's universe, I can't say that it would be a big change.
Actually, it would totally change the character. One of his salient personality points is that he hates being called a "monkey" - and it's more common for humans to confuse monkeys and apes than it is to confuse horses and donkeys. Also, the Library in the Unseen Universe is VERY tricky to navigate; one of the reasons the Librarian refused to be changed back into a human (after the magical accident that turned him into an oran) was that having four hands to climb up and sideways and .. otherways re: the shelving was a huge bonus (and probably safer. Dimensions go pretty funny in that place. Cthulhu would feel right at home.)It's doubtful that he would find the form a horse quite so useful. Nor would it command the level of respect he got for being a powerful ape that can rip your arms off.
See how such a change can alter the entire dynamic of a character?
Actually, it would totally change the character. One of his salient personality points is that he hates being called a "monkey" - and it's more common for humans to confuse monkeys and apes than it is to confuse horses and donkeys. Also, the Library in the Unseen Universe is VERY tricky to navigate; one of the reasons the Librarian refused to be changed back into a human (after the magical accident that turned him into an oran) was that having four hands to climb up and sideways and .. otherways re: the shelving was a huge bonus (and probably safer. Dimensions go pretty funny in that place. Cthulhu would feel right at home.)It's doubtful that he would find the form a horse quite so useful. Nor would it command the level of respect he got for being a powerful ape that can rip your arms off.
See how such a change can alter the entire dynamic of a character?
then what is the reason for changing the race, and associated race elements present in the books?
what other reason other then race baiting PC-ness, and more importantly a opportunity to use this casting choice as a reason to eliminate controversial elements in Oddetta backstory
then what is the reason for changing the race, and associated race elements present in the books?
what other reason other then race baiting PC-ness, and more importantly a opportunity to use this casting choice as a reason to eliminate controversial elements in Oddetta backstory
For those of you that feel that this is a movie that has come off the rails due to a "PC" agenda, or that the producers are submitting to the demand of the "SJWs", can you show an example of a big budget movie that has been successful for having done so? Why would Hollywood producers want to throw money at a project if they didn't have faith that they will get it back and make a profit?share
well
1) like you said, there is no precedent for improved market performance due to being SJW / PC, so there is no need for a race change. ( look at Fantastic 4 ) In fact, maintaining the races shows greater assurance in tickets sales.
So, let me asnwer for you why a change was made:
2) SJW are not all rational ppl , case in point OscarTooWhite, for one. Their primary incentive is to push their political - social agenda, not because of actual facts nor ticket receipts.
3) A reasonable excuse to excise all references to black-on-white racism, as per the current zeitgeist. Can you imagine maintaining the races as per the book and having a question thrown to the writers/directors during a press interview of why there are no elements of racism in the film? Note that there are documented references to Blacks saying Black racism does not exist. Even available on Youtube. So this phenomenon is not some conjuration of a feverish imagination.
4) Having no such ideas in the film means a turn towards a generic fantasy epic, much easily sold overseas , eg China where returns are coming to 1:1 with the US. A character driven epic does not. Also why the writers had decided book 7 , not 1/2 is a good starting point.
5) It reduces the need to write a screenplay which draws it's strength on the characters and their motivation ( Misery, Shining) thus MASKING the deficiencies these writers had already shown in their portfolio. Also why alot of ppl forsee a failure upon announcement who was in charge.
So, What would your answers to my questions be?
So, What would your answers to my questions be?
My answer is that all of your points ignore the studio's bottom line: making money. Except perhaps point 4, but then that begs the question why cast a black actor if they are worried about the Chinese market? Producers purposefully shrank the image of John Boyega on Chinese Star Wars posters because they feared his prominence would lead to diminished sales.
so Abrams was able to stick in a Female and Black lead.
TFA thrilled me and I, nor any of my five friends whom I saw it with, never even mentioned the color/gender of the actors to each other in all of our pre-movie excitement and post-movie deliberations.
Not being from America may be an influence here but I'm not sure exactly how to be honest. Why would it bother anyone that the lead was girl and the secondary lead was a black man? I might be wrong but I don't think TFA was based on pre-existing source material?
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion
Why would it bother anyone that the lead was girl and the secondary lead was a black man?