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What I'm Just Now Noticing About Wizard & Glass

posted 8 years ago by joannatn
35 replies | jump to latest

*As almost always with my posts, spoilers lurk within.*

So I finally just realized the other day while reading that perhaps a lot of people feel so disconnected from Wizard & Glass because, if you really get down to it... the story isn't about Roland. I mean, really truly? This is Susan's story and Roland is just a character in it. Sure, he's a main character, top billing and what have you, but it's about Susan. The story even breaks away to her point of view without Roland there several times.

And what's really funny to me is that as I've realized this, I'm feeling a lot more for Susan than I did in my previous reads. Seriously, I was always in this, "Gosh, poor Roland!" mentality when the person who really needs the sympathy is Susan. I mean, girlfriend got one raw deal! I mean, this girl was sentenced to death and her crimes were what, really? Being too young and beautiful? Hell, let me find some kindling to add to her bonfire! Let's light that puppy up!

So, back to the point, is maybe that why some of you haters out there dislike Wizard & Glass so much? I know that book has some huge fans like me, but for as many of us that love it, it seems there are those of you who hate it. And please, I am well aware that for some of you personal preference is the determining factor. I just find it so funny that I never really noticed this little detail before.

[–] ruink 8 years ago

You are definitely on to something.

Although, I do not think it is just because Susan is front and center.

Wizard and Glass is stylistically different as well. King's diction is on a whole other playing field here. It is much more indulgent and romantic.

But, I personally LOVE all of that.

I remember reading it for the first time and finding it jarring going from the present stuff with Rolan's current ka-tet, then all of a sudden jumping to flashbacks that are HEAVILY inspired by fantasy stuff like Robert E Howard.

Either way, I love that book.

[–] jerryhammond38 8 years ago

It's not just that it's her story, but that it is a full blown romance. Alot of people (guys) are not up for that. Even though there is some seriously good action there as well.

I also agree that the flashback angle doesn't work for everyone.

I love that book too.

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

Y'think so?

To me, the perspectives between Roland's junior lawmen (plus Roland himself, naturally) and Susan were given roughly equal representation. Having said that...I can see what you mean by the story coming off as Susan's tale with the "boys" as accompanying heroes rather than the center focus.

Now, as for the reason why Wizard and Glass is such a polarizing entry in the series? The primary reason I always attributed this reputation to the fourth entry in the series was because of how it failed to focus on old Roland and his present ka-tet. In other words: many readers wanted to see them explore an alternate Topeka rather than have the adventure halted for a novel-length flashback.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

It was just a thought. Since it only just occurred to me in this most recent reading I thought it might have something to do with it. Not the only reason, but a nuance at least. And I agree that there is equal representation, but I really feel that despite that, it's still Susan's story. Kind of like how there's just as much Ron, but it's Harry's story (I always go back around to Harry Potter, wow...).

I understand wanting the journey to continue, but I also like having a small reprieve from the journey. And again, this was very important for Roland to air, so I'm only too happy to oblige him. Besides, I'm a serious romance junkie so that aspect helps. Tragedies depress me to no end, but I think this particular tragedy helps explain a lot about Roland. Besides, I just got through the standoff at the Traveler's Rest and that's probably one of my favorite scenes from any book I've ever read.

Ah well, to each their own.

[–] brett_md 8 years ago

Of all the possible reasons for the dislike of W&G, Wesker is closest, for me anyway.
I dislike being taken out of the primary narrative for a side story/flash back. You refer to it as a "short reprieve". W&G is far from short, and now with Keyhole thrown in, forget it.
I still haven't continued this current read through because of the 4, 4.5 halt.
Perhaps if 4 were much much shorter, or if the tale of Susan were interspersed throughout several book's campfire gatherings.
But it's not, and it can't be. So, I think I'll just have to go from 3 to 5 from now on, and miss out on...not much.

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

But it's not, and it can't be. So, I think I'll just have to go from 3 to 5 from now on, and miss out on...not much.

SPEAKING OF WHICH...

(Sorry for the sudden shouting. I just had what is possibly a miniature revelation.)

Because the entirety of Roland's flashback was portrayed in the first set of comics back in 2007, I wonder how Alternate Topeka is going to be handled once the comic progresses past Lud. Marvel has almost wrapped up The Drawing of the Three. The Waste Lands are next, of course. Following that? Considering that Wizard and Glass was primarily a nostalgic campfire tale of tragic halcyon days which, as I basically said before, has already been shown, the ka-tet's visit to another Kansas is probably going to be a very short interlude (hopefully with a bit of additional exploration/conversation thrown into the mix) sandwiched between The Waste Lands and The Wolves of the Calla with an even briefer allusion to the part of the story revealed at least a decade prior.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

Have you read the first set of The Dark Tower comics? I've not, though my omnibus is on its way .

Anyhow...I am now curious as to how the split of perspectives/overall protagonist-focus played out in The Gunslinger Born (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower:_The_Gunslinger_Born).

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

I haven't read the graphic novels yet, but I keep hearing good things.

Wow, Brett. So I think you're saying you're... in the hater camp? :-p Well, I'd at least read the Blaine wrap up and the departure from the campfire before burning your W&G copy. I know this is just a difference in personal taste, but I think Roland's story (lengthy though it may be, cry your pardon) is beautiful in so many ways and I'm only too happy to hear the story again. But as I've said before, to each their own.

Captain, you and Guy and a few others have recommended the comics to me, so next time I'm in a book store (I think 2nd & Charles has them) I'll see what I can snag!

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

Assuming read/acquiring all of the comics depicting Roland's youth is a goal of yours, going with the omnibus is cheaper on the whole than acquiring each trade paperback piecemeal.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10689754-the-dark-tower-omnibus

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Tower-Omnibus-Stephen-King/dp/0785155414

In addition to all of the deceased presidents you will save, it lasts longer (the collection is a sewn hardcover book as compared to the individual comics which are glue-bound softcovers). Oh yeah...the art alone - depicted in full-page color format - is worth the price of admission. There is also an included map of Mid-World that your inner fangirl ought to appreciate .

Once you have given those a look-see, try your hand at the The Gunslinger Omnibus.

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Tower-Gunslinger-Slipcase-Hardcover/dp/0785188703/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481314010&sr=8-1&keywords=Gunslinger+Omnibus

This collection is, essentially, The Gunslinger in comic form with some additional material to sweeten the deal.

The Dark Tower: The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale #1-2, Evil Ground #1-2, and So Fell Lord Perth #1

The breakdown of which issue depicts what is within the below hyperlink.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(comics)

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The only real downside to these comics is that certain scenes (mostly those involving nudity/sexuality...hooray for Puritanical double standards?) have their explicit nature toned down due to the limitations imposed by portraying them in picture format to a wide market.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] jjberkhof 8 years ago

The biggest problem I always had with it was that Waste Lands was such a cliffhanger and I had to wait 6 freaking years for the next chapter in the Ka-Tet's journey. What I ended up getting didn't feel at all like the next chapter I was expecting. It is a great story in itself but the feeling of let down I felt way back then stays with me.

[–] fanumdiabolicum 8 years ago

I didn't hate Wizard and Glass, but it's sure my least favorite. I found Susan Delgado an extremely annoying, whining character, and her ending pleased me a lot.
I guess people don't like it because, as pointed before, it's too much of a love story and it keeps tue actual story from progressing. Stephen King said, in the notes of W&G, that he didn't knownhow to write live stories, and he asked his wife for help. IMO, it shows. It's not the King we know and love.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Wow! I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it as much as I did. It's funny because I can be very judgmental of characters in books; I mean to the point where I will abandon a book after a chapter or two if I can't get over the main characters more annoying qualities. I actually really liked Susan. I felt horrible for her because she was put in an impossible position by the only person she had left in the world. And frankly, can you look back at yourself at 16 and say you weren't often whining and annoying yourself? I know I can't. I mean, that's the age. Nobody understood me. I knew everything and no one else knew anything (especially Mom and Dad). My friends and I would get kicked out of the library for laughing too much. We were kids, but not orphaned kids coveted by old perverts and left to a manipulative old hag who thought of no one but herself. Our excuses were far fewer, but at no point do I think any of us deserved to be burned alive for it. I mean, I think that might be taking the punishment for youthful folly just a smidge far.

The King I know and loved proved he could write romance along with horror, but again, these are opinions of mine. Over the years he's written a multitude of diverse stories, many made most apparent by the short story collections where you can get a little bit of everything. I loved hearing about Roland's past, getting a better understanding of what made him the man he became, and grieving for the amount of pain he endured as a very young man (first with Susan, then with his mother).

But in the end all's well. I'll snuggle up with the lights out for Wizard and Glass show, and you can turn your attention to something more agreeable to you.

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

I think King handled the romance fairly well. Roland's infatuation with Susan wasn't exactly labyrinthian in complexity, after all.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] Sawyer_Lost 8 years ago

I always loved Wizard and Glass, my favorite Dark Tower instalment along with The Waste Lands and Drawing. I didn't care for Susan (or the whole love story element) either upon first reading it, but the older I get the more I can relate to Susan, to Roland's behaviour and also to Cuthbert's heated reactions.
In my case, the change of mind with regard to that love story was brought about by becoming more mature, but I certainly don't want to imply that this is the case with anyone else here.

Books are a uniquely portable magic. ~Stephen King

[–] fanumdiabolicum 8 years ago

That's precisely what I was thinking just now. I was 17 when I read Wizard and Glass, 9 years ago. Being an edgy teen, I was quite insensitive and didn't have much empathy. I don't know if I would go as far as liking Susan now, but I guess it's very likely I wouldn't hate her either. I did enjoy seeing more about his old ka-tet, and I loved to hate Rhea of Coos. To this day, one of my favorite lines ever written by King is from this book. I can't really remember it, but it's the first line of some chapter, describing one of those gray mornings that won't let you get out of bed or something. It was so simple and so perfect, I usually use it as an example of King's writing style.
Hell, I need to read all the books again asap, it's been long enough already.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Oh, that's actually a good point (age being a factor). I really don't have a problem with Susan as a person, but again, that's just me. I'm almost done W&G, though, so that could also be a reason I'm feeling so very sorry for her situation right now.

You're right, though! I was way too far removed from the books; to a point where people were referring to things that left me scratching my head. I need to do a reread and remember how this all shakes out!

[–] The_Stranggler 8 years ago

I loved the supernatural and fantasy elements of the books. Rhea of the coos was a great villian. Finally info about Roland's past and who Susan is. The grape fruits of Merlin was interesting.

[–] SpringheelJack_fin 8 years ago

You need to stop using the term "Haters", it's a term coined by people like the Kardashians. You really want to be seen like that?

Anyway, I love Wizard and Glass, it's one of my favourite parts of the series. I was never thinking "Poor Roland" when Susan was getting burned.

I have fond memories of doing some acid and reading the graphic novel (or comic, I don't know what the difference is.) right after finishing the novel and being utterly captivated, seeing the story so well illustrated.

For me the story was mostly about a large part of Roland dying in order for him to become the man he is, always leaving precious things behind in order to pursue the Tower. I'd say the parts that focus on Susan are just there to hold a cohesive narrative, also, the readers themselves need to form an attachment to her to better understand Roland's loss.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Is my using the word haters less appealing than people throwing about the terms cuck, SJW and shills? If using a term many people have used since the Kardashians makes me seem like one, I'd assume the people with that perception are shallow and frankly, obtuse. Thank you for the advice, though. It's been enlightening in terms of the way some minds work.

I do at least agree with you about Susan, however. I finally forced myself to plug through and read (almost) to the end and woke with puffy eyes. So many tears...

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

The best of our fanbase right here, folks.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] SpringheelJack_fin 8 years ago

You actually say the type of sh*it that the weak ass writers of Big Bang Theory would have a random side character say followed by fake ass laughter 

Do you like being that campy?

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Oh! Oh my. Did I strike a nerve? I'm sorry. It truly wasn't my intention. Or... oh, you didn't think I was calling you shallow and obtuse, did you? No, no, not you, Master. Just those that would actually judge a person's character and/or intelligence based on their use of modern vernacular. I actually hadn't thought to consider you one of those people. I have to be honest, I don't see how I looked so defensive. See, I'm very comfortable with who I am and how I speak so sleeping at night is not a problem for me. But you, on the other hand... I'm fairly confident the above is pretty defensive. So if I did offend you, it was not my intention, and I cry your pardon.

Not a giraffe, it wasn't quite that bad. And I think balls would probably put a damper on my marriage so I'll just have to content myself with sounding like a... How was it so elegantly put? Ah yes! "...a defensive little pussy ass bitch..." I'm glad I've been provided such clear examples on appropriate ways to speak!

Hope you're having a good night, Master. Or are you Moony like Lupin? Nah, I'll stick to Master. At least we'll always have The Dark Tower, right?

[–] SpringheelJack_fin 8 years ago

You looked defensive because you spent 90% of your post addressing a comment that took up 10% of my own and making irrelevant comparisons.

[–] sugrnspyce4 8 years ago

Hey, you can write another 5 paragraphs justifying why you think it's okay to look like a defensive little pussy ass bitch for picking words out of the Miley Cyrus Bitchionary if it helps you sleep at night, making comparisons doesn't change anything or make you look like a bigger person

Yeah, I bet you could have drowned a giraffe in your tears, you f*ucken idiot. Get some balls.

Wow. Well I have to say, you trying to police another poster's use of harmless slang and subsequently hurling insults at her when she voices her opinion on such slang policing certainly doesn't make you look like a bigger person. That was uncalled for.

[–] SpringheelJack_fin 8 years ago

Maybe she shouldn't have spent a whole paragraph responding to an off the cuff remark. Also, f*uck off. 

[–] sugrnspyce4 8 years ago

Maybe she shouldn't have spent a whole paragraph responding to an off the cuff remark.

Or, maybe you could've kept that condescending "off the cuff" remark to yourself and not and presumed to tell her how to post? That was always an option too. I can't speak for anybody else here, but I personally don't know anyone who would respond well to the condescension and insolence you've demonstrated here.

Also, f*uck off.

LOL - oh wow. How ever can I refuse such an eloquently worded request?  Oh - also, no.

[–] guyamos 8 years ago

you've got some issues dude. Like seriously.

Plus, there's the whole fact you seem to be a little obsessed with the Kardashians/Miley Cyrus pop culture. Some hidden truths behind all these references maybe?
I think somebodies sub-conscious may be a little revealing... How's that giraffe working out for you?

[–] SpringheelJack_fin 8 years ago



you seem to be a little obsessed

Don't ever become a psychologist.. actually, don't become anything that requires an IQ above 80.

[–] bigbenjr48 8 years ago

You need to stop using the term "Haters", it's a term coined by people like the Kardashians. You really want to be seen like that

That's a black term/phrase.

Hater was a 70's word black pimps originally used as "Mack Hater"; defined as one pimp hating on another pimps success.
In the 80's, the word 'Mack Hater' was replaced with "Playa Hater" when one person accused another of being jealous of his/her sexual conquests.
In the 90's/present, both front-words were detached, and the word 'Hater' stood by itself to mean everything in a nutshell...depending on what you were using it for.
It basically means a person who is jealous of you for anything under the Sun.

But I just had to laugh when you said that the Kardashians coined a term that's been used by blacks since forever. Even been used in Blaxploitation film before those ho's were even born.

Black History Will Now Be Accepting Martyrs👮

[–] guyamos 8 years ago

how embarrassing for him.

I was hoping to point out the Kardashians didn't invent the term 'Hater', but if the guy loves the Kardashians so much maybe it was just hope that made him think that.

[–] SpringheelJack_fin 8 years ago

God, f*uck off you try hard little spastic.

"DERR he said Kardashians so he must love them!"

You're about as imaginative with your insults as a f*ucken 6 year old, you know that?

That's 2 posts you've made saying I must be obsessed because I used them as a perfect example of the type of smug retarded bitch person that uses the term "hater".

[–] SpringheelJack_fin 8 years ago

People who use it come across a smug little sh*its like the Kardashians because it allows them to deflect any kind of criticism allowing them to feel good about themselves through ignorance.

The origins are meaningless to me.

[–] KeyBrains 8 years ago

Wizard and Glass is my favorite Stephen King book. Always loved it. Self-contained and integral to the series. Beautifully written, and well-rounded characters. Tons of drama, great action, depth of story.

Content by KeyBrains is copyright protected not to be duplicated without accreditation (KeyBrains)

[–] MarshallStax 8 years ago

I disliked "Wizard and Glass" somewhat, and it's because the overarching narrative stalled for hundreds of pages in favor of a flashback. Then, when it picks up again, the part of the book that takes place in the primary narrative amounts to pretty much nothing.

IMHO, King ought to have written the Mejias story as a standalone. For that matter, the flashback-within-flashback of "The Wind Through the Keyhole" didn't need to be tied into the main narrative, either.

Don't get me wrong; I enjoyed reading the "young Roland" stories. I just didn't like that they more or less hijacked the framework narrative and stalled it for hundreds of pages.

All Art is pretense.