is emilia clarke going to play susannah then?
well? susannahs race doesnt change her character at all, so...
๐
Why not. Apparently race isn't important, according to those defending the casting of Elba. And her race only really plays an important part in the Drawing of the three for a few chapters (same essential argument I've seen many use defending changing Roland's race). So it's not important.
Clearly the only important element is if they can play the part.
Unless of course those defending Elba also happen to be shameless hypocrites pushing a blatant double standard (though are suspect many are just that).
Because after all the melanin content of the character is just not important (another argument used by defenders of Elba's casting).
Actually, it does form the basis of her character. She grew up in the 60s and 70s. A time of great social and racial progress. Her race formed who her character was.
Roland didn't grow up in that time. His race doesn't inform who he is.
Nice try, but still, a swing and a miss.
Let's be bad guys.
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So you are saying you would have a problem with Susannah changing race? Are you admitting you're a giant hypocrite then.Didn't I or someone else here have a similar talk with you before about this being a false equivalence? I'm pretty sure one of us did. Once again, someone taking issue with the possibility of a white actress being cast as Susannah while being okay with a black Roland is not a "double standard" or "hypocritical" because this comparison you keep making is inaccurate to begin with. share
I'm ignoring your complete and utter bullsh*t explanation for why it's different. Just answer the simple question.
But it's not a false equivalence, that's just how hypocrites try and justify their own double standard.
It's simple really, anyone defending Elba as Roland should have no issue if a white actress played Susannah. No false arguments trying to pretend it's different or any of that bullsh*t.
It's a simple question (one the person replying to me dodged answering) would you be against a white actress as Susannah? Or are you one of those hypocrites who will defend any race change, as long as they only change the White characters (which are apparently considered blank slates for whatever agenda directors want to push)?
But it's not a false equivalence
How is it not a false equivalency?
Roland is not from our world. He has no defined history with racism in his home-world.
O/Detta/Susannah is from our world, and lived through exceptional racism from the 1940s-1960s.
From that standpoint is it much more important for O/Detta/Susannah as written to be of African descent. Do you deny that? If so, how?
It's simple really, anyone defending Elba as Roland should have no issue if a white actress played Susannah.
I will admit that I don't have an issue with Susannah being played by a white actress, but I recognize that the change would be greater for the character as written. Roland's race doesn't matter in the context of his home-world; O/Detta/Susannah's does. When the two meet, contextually, as written, the two come into a conflict that is swiftly resolved. Roland's race no longer matters after the final portion of DotT. Susannah's race is still important to her after the events of the second book have concluded.
This is not to say that white characters are blank slates, but as far as Mid-World is concerned they may as well be.
You talk a lot about people being hypocrites, and that if O/Detta/Susannah is cast as a white actress that people will whine and moan in said hypocrisy. Can you promise that if she is cast as a white actress that you will not complain about yet another problem with the casting? Will you support the choice or will you continue to decry the production for its poor choices? If you make a negative statement about the casting of a white actress, something you have been advocating for months, I would think that the height of hypocrisy. You may still feel that the production will be a "train wreck", but surely such a hypothetical casting decision must give you some hope.
Or are you merely here to be a troll?
I feel that I already know the answer.
And her race only really plays an important part in the Drawing of the three for a few chapters (same essential argument I've seen many use defending changing Roland's race)
Not the essential argument at all. Susannah is from OUR world in which race matters and Roland is from All-World in which race is circumstantial or ignored. O/Detta/Susannah lived through exceptional racism in the deep south, and Roland lives in a world in which races seem to live in relative equality. Susannah is not going to lose that part of herself, even with the melding of Odetta and Detta, and Roland never even experienced race as an integral part of his identity.
The only way in which Roland's race matters is in the mind of "fans" who only care about absolute visual reconstruction of the character. We know how he was described in the books, but King himself has dismissed those descriptions for this production. They don't matter to him (and he isn't a shill for the money: he has expressed his passion for this production and he doesn't need the money). We know how much those Whelan illustrations matter to the literal minded ... but those are merely exterior interpretations that tell nothing about the internal workings of the character; they don't matter in this context.
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The more you expose him, the more I wonder if it's Spider198 that isn't familiar with the source material.
Perhaps the reason he throws out the "I doubt you've actually read the books" accusation to others is a form of deflection against his own ignorance?
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
This is the best reply you can come up with? Such a lazy fool. If I hadn't read the books I would probably be ignoring this film was even being made (it would still look sh*t but it wouldn't be cr*pping all over one of my favourite book series so I wouldn't pay it attention).
I think you throw these nonsense comments around because you've probably never read the books yourself, maybe an Elba fanboy who skimmed the Wikipedia entry for Dark Tower so you could pretend you have.
All the while pretending you are ok with the casting because race apparently isn't important, according to you. Except we both know you are a liar and just another social justice warrior hypocrite pushing a double standard, race change is fine as long they only change the white characters it seems.
Which is itself actually racist, considering all white characters blank slates while treating any characters that aren't white as sacred.
*shrugs* Believe what you want, man. The only consistent thing i've seen with you is how you rewrite things to fit your own narrative.
Producer/director likes Idris Elba as Roland Deschain? Impossible. Politically corrent stunt.
Stephen King likes Idris Elba? Secretly coerced into picking him out of fear of being attacked. Later, it's because he's a "sellout hack".
Other fans don't mind or even like Idris Elba in the role of Roland Deschain? NO TRUE SCOTSMAN! Or, they're secret diehard Idris Elba fans unfamiliar with the source material.
Presence of the Horn of Eld (an already existing story element) opens up possibilities? Lazy BS excuse.
Then again, I have to keep reminding myself - and others - that you genuinely wanted bodily harm to come to people involved in this film's production in order to have said production halted/cancelled before stating that you wanted the careers of those involved to become ruined. It is no wonder you're so erratic in addition to your seemingly infinite hatred.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
Publicity stunts don't work if they it's a publicity stunt do they, think about. Try using that brain of yours. I know you don't use it often but maybe if you tried you might get a coherent thought going.
I keep having to remind everyone that despite your "race is unimportant" bullsh*t that you are infact a complete and utter hypocrite. For all your insults and talking down to anyone who questions the race change about how they should have no problem with race changes, you are on other boards complaining about race changes and we both know you'd be against it if they changed Susannah.
But feel free to keep pretending you are not totally full of sh*t.
God damn spider. You're a bitch.
shareBump.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
Roland's skin colour is just as important, he's the classic man with no name western character in the strange world of Dark Tower. His being white informs the basis of how he and Susannah interact upon first meeting.
Changing that changes the entire dynamic between them which is built upon that first meeting.
I'm sick of fools making some imaginary line where white characters are a blank slate for any moron pushing an agenda. Susannah's race is no important to the wider story than Roland's. It amounts to the same level of importance, since once Detta/Odetta becomes Susannah it plays no part. And you might be fine if they made her white but the hypocrite Wesker below you wouldn't (because he is full of sh*t). The lack of anyone straight up answering the question, and who refused to before shows up how many people have got an idiotic double standard about race change on this board.
Roland's skin colour is just as important, he's the classic man with no name western character in the strange world of Dark Tower.
Why is it so important that the archetype of a "man with no name" have a definitive and inextricable race attachment? He has "a name" in The Dark Tower, so is that aspect spitting on the integrity of your beloved premise? The archetype has foundations in cinema and literature, but wasn't drawn from history. O/Detta/Susannah is a character very much created with race as an integral component of her backstory; Roland isn't. If they change this for the film then so be it, but the racial history/importance/depth of these two characters is in no way equal.
His being white informs the basis of how he and Susannah interact upon first meeting.Changing that changes the entire dynamic between them which is built upon that first meeting.
It does. Well, at least how she interacts with him. He has very little input on her perception of him. It's all about her race and her perception of his race. When she melds into Susannah, her racial history hasn't gone away; she is quite simply less controlled by her hatred of white people. Roland hasn't changed in any way. his perception of race is exactly the same. Eddie's too! The only character for whom race is a concern in the slightest is O/Detta/Susannah.
If you base the importance of Roland's being white on how O/Detta/Susannah responds to it, then you clearly must recognize that race is much more important to O/Detta/Susannah and not to Roland.
You stress the importance of the archetype, but that is important only from an external perspective (many fans want to see Roland portrayed as written). O/Detta/Susannah's race matters within the context of the book (inextricable racial components and character motivation) and also matters from an external perspective (many fans want to see O/Detta/Susannah portrayed as written).
I'm sick of fools making some imaginary line where white characters are a blank slate for any moron pushing an agenda.
Not all white characters are blank slates. Many are written with race and heritage as necessary components of their characterization and interactions with others. There are many characters for which this is not true. Many characters in sitcoms (for instance) are written as generic characters intended for a white actor. Later, after auditions and meetings, some of these roles will go to non-white actors. These were essentially characters that had a "blank slate". Some characters come from a background in which race is not a defining characteristic, and expresses neutrality at race in general. Roland is an example of the latter. While Roland is a well-defined character, perception of race is not a factor in his existence.
Susannah's race is no [more] important to the wider story than Roland's.
Correct. In the overall story, neither one's races or attitudes about race affect the outcome. This is not to say that Roland cares about his race or that O/Detta/Susannah doesn't.
The lack of anyone straight up answering the question, and who refused to before shows up how many people have got an idiotic double standard about race change on this board.
Was the question "Is Emilia Clark going to play Susannah"? I would say probably not, because of her high demand and scheduling needs. If she does I'm sure she would be great. share
But it's not a false equivalence, that's just how hypocrites try and justify their own double standard.Exactly what Pericles3614 said. Couldn't have put it better myself.
It's simple really, anyone defending Elba as Roland should have no issue if a white actress played Susannah. No false arguments trying to pretend it's different or any of that bullsh*t.
It's a simple question (one the person replying to me dodged answering) would you be against a white actress as Susannah? Or are you one of those hypocrites who will defend any race change, as long as they only change the White characters (which are apparently considered blank slates for whatever agenda directors want to push)?
Even on the most basic level, Roland and O/Detta/Susannah are not on equal ground when it comes to how race informs their characters and affects their lives. Therefore, Spider198, your comparison is definitely a false equivalence.
As for why it's not hypocritical or a double standard to cast a POC in a role that was originally white (that is, in cases where the character's background, culture, and/or experiences aren't dependent on his or her race), here's the simplest way I've seen it explained. Anakin_McFly has already explained this to you once before, if I remember correctly. But if this doesn't clarify it for you, I don't know what to tell you.
http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters share
Again I'm ignoring your bullsh*t excuses for why it's supposedly different.
Basically you are a hypocrite then. You've avoided simply answering the question twice and instead being up that equally bulls*t excuse people use to justify their double standard. You can't robotically repeat that race changing is fine yet have a problem with it the second they change a black character. That analogy is total cr*p by the way, want more characters for black actors or whatever race. Then create them, don't change pre existing characters to fit an agenda.
And by the reasoning of the idiotic post you linked you'd be perfectly fine with changing any black characters to Indian or Native American then. Much less roles for actors of both those backgrounds compared to black actors so it would be fine to change them? Or are they only allowed to change white characters?
It's very clear you are a complete hypocrite pushing a blatant double standard, just curious how you long you will keep talking complete bullsh*t to excuse it.
Again I'm ignoring your bullsh*t excuses for why it's supposedly different.Again, you're ignoring my explanations because 1) I disagree with most of your opinions regarding this movie, which you apparently take issue with, 2) they don't fit your narrative, and 3) you haven't been able to present a counterargument other than repeatedly hurling "SJW," "shill," "BS excuses," "PC agendas," etc. at people. Just as we all expected.
Basically you are a hypocrite then. You've avoided simply answering the question twice and instead being up that equally bulls*t excuse people use to justify their double standard. You can't robotically repeat that race changing is fine yet have a problem with it the second they change a black character. That analogy is total cr*p by the way, want more characters for black actors or whatever race. Then create them, don't change pre existing characters to fit an agenda.So basically, those of us who subscribe to our line of thinking are "hypocrites," not because any of our actions contradict what we've said, but because you seem to have no concept of nuance or context when it comes to how race affects Roland or O/Detta/Susannah. You also deliberately ignore and deny explanations of how that particular conflict can still work (and possibly be made even more interesting) with a black Roland. Lastly, you seem to know very little - and care even less - about how inclusive and exclusive casting affects actors of color in Hollywood, which is why you continue to claim anything we've said is "hypocritical," a "double standard," or most inaccurately, "racist."
And for the record, we haven't avoided answering your questions because to my knowledge, we've answered them already. Several times. In several different threads. You not liking our answers or you continuing to ignore and deny those answers doesn't mean those answers don't exist.
And by the reasoning of the idiotic post you linked you'd be perfectly fine with changing any black characters to Indian or Native American then. Much less roles for actors of both those backgrounds compared to black actors so it would be fine to change them? Or are they only allowed to change white characters?Apparently, you didn't understand the analogy at all. 1) Even though they used black fictional characters vs. white fictional characters, the example actually applies to other characters of color as well, and 2) your "black vs. Native/indigenous people" analogy is still inaccurate. First: Race informs the backgrounds and/or development of many characters of color. Second: Both racial groups you mentioned have very different cultural backgrounds, traditions, etc. Therefore, neither group could take the place of the other (unless we're talking roles based on historical instances where blacks and Natives/indigenous people intermingled, but that's another discussion).
It's very clear you are a complete hypocrite pushing a blatant double standard, just curious how you long you will keep talking complete bullsh*t to excuse it.See above. The only thing that's very clear here is that you're determined to throw yourself on the floor of every thread on this board and throw tantrums because the filmmakers dared to make a casting decision you didn't like for a fictional character. share
Again another post of trying to make excuses for your double standard that adds nothing. Maybe just admit you are pushing a double standard and stop pretending.
Rather than rambling on and creating a long bullsh*t post just admit you are a hypocrite and do infact mind race changing, as long as they only change the White characters.
Casting should not be done to fill quotas, either an actor fits the part or doesn't. If they don't (as Elba or any other black actor doesn't fit Roland) they shouldn't be cast.
One question: do you view a double-standard over movie casting worse than wishing bodily harm and career ruination upon others?
I don't expect a genuine direct answer. Rather, I expect a complete evasion, but it'll be interesting to see if you cook up a new one or stick with the old tried-and-true.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
Find a new argument. This is all you say and yet completely evade the question when I point out your hypocrisy.
You're the worst kind of hypocrite, not only do you push a double standard you like to pretend you find things like a character's race unimportant (taking down to anyone who is against). When in fact you are against it yourself but have decided for everyone what race changes they are allowed to criticise.
I may have been wrong wishing all the casts careers go down with the film, Winnick, Haley, and Kranz should be fine. The rest however (especially Elba and the director, because he is a tool and the director is a joke) deserve some negative affect from sh*tting all over the dark tower.
Now let's see if you acknowledge that you are a complete hypocrite, and all this character's race isn't important talk is complete bullsh*t. Because even you don't think that when it comes to any character other than Roland it seems. Or is it all white characters you've decided should be considered blank slates for any hack director, as long as they don't change any other of course?
Addressing career ruination...that's good. Now, how about that bodily harm?
(Take your time.)
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
Avoiding answering the question that exposes you as a shameless hypocrite pushing a double standard again, planning on answering that anytime soon fool?
shareAlready done that.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1648190/board/flat/256756621?d=256877223#256877223
Are you going to address the bodily harm wish, or not?
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
I didn't think so.
For what it's worth, what you said was pretty hideous, so i'll understand if you're too embarrassed to back up your desire for the principle cast/producers to suffer an accident.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
[deleted]
Zorj? Que?
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
Your ocean heart
Clothed in respect
And sweet caress
My uneasy mind
You dip and you swell
Float and you find
And sweet caress
My uneasy mind
Deep ocean vast sea
Deep ocean vast sea - well that's deep
Imagine set of steps easily climbed
The tower of pride
The plastic of mind
Where there lies a table
The table stands
For the power of success
Respect on the sign
Intelligence so cold
A heart like glass
From the surface to deep
You wave and you dive
Like the heart and the sun
You wave and you dive
You hold me so cold
You wave and you dive
Deep ocean vast sea
Deep ocean vast sea - well that's me
You're clothed in respect
You smell of sweet caress
Dip and swell beyond the power of fists
Your ocean heart
Healing uneasy minds
And I wanna dive in with you
Clinging to the rock, I'm waiting
I'm waiting, I'm waiting, I'm waiting
I'm waiting
Deep ocean vast sea
Deep ocean vast sea - well that's deep
Your heart is hard
You think your legs hurt
You smell of aching sweet success
Your head's a supernova
And you would like
Anything to stop the pain from your fingers
Screaming
And you stand naked in the sun
Without leather
Whose pain you think you need
Well all you need to do is undress
Let go and wash
Take the step through the other side
Up-turned razor
The air is thick with karma
A sutra of the way down
Well listen boy it's a long way down
Down through heaven's gate
To heaven's gate the step's the step
The tower of pride
The devil lied
Dive up to the highest point where the lives are save'ed
Where all the lives the tables stand
Power to success, respect and climb the steps
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
the police aren't trained to handle anything like a zombie outbreak.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
I hear you knocking / But you can't come in...
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
Again another post of trying to make excuses for your double standard that adds nothing. Maybe just admit you are pushing a double standard and stop pretending.Again, what you label "excuses" and "double standards" are actually valid explanations. It's very apparent that you don't like the explanations, but your dislike doesn't negate their validity.
Rather than rambling on and creating a long bullsh*t post just admit you are a hypocrite and do infact mind race changing, as long as they only change the White characters.LOL - and once again, you prove you have no concept of nuance or context (both of which are required for you to fully understand why none of what I've said is hypocritical). You hear only what you want to hear instead of what any of us has actually said. How about rather than incessantly throwing tantrums in every thread, you could just go and read the series over again? That way, you can be entertained by your perfect Roland, and those of us who aren't irrationally obsessed with Roland's race can get back to discussing more interesting aspects of the upcoming movie.
And honestly, if we're talking about hypocritical behavior, I've been keeping tabs on this movie via this message board for years, yet I don't seem to remember seeing you going on a "PC agenda" rampage when Javier Bardem was said to be playing Roland, and he's Hispanic. Neither of he nor Elba resemble how Roland is described in the books, therefore making the only real difference their respective skin tones. But the fact that you're outraged over one casting and not the other...well, you get the idea.
Casting should not be done to fill quotas, either an actor fits the part or doesn't. If they don't (as Elba or any other black actor doesn't fit Roland) they shouldn't be cast.So basically, the only possible way an actor of color - in this case, a black actor - could play a white role is if the filmmakers have some sort of quota to fill? Has nothing at all to do with the actor's actual talent or his ability to embody the many aspects of the gunslinger as a character, eh? Realistically speaking, if there was a quota system in place in Hollywood, it would be much more diverse than it currently is. But currently, Hollywood in general is still disproportionately white.
Also, you have no idea if Elba fits the part or not. No one does, but obviously the filmmakers believe he does. As I've said many times before, the only way we'll know that for sure is when the movie has been released and we can see his performance for ourselves. share
No they are excuses, plain and simple. I'm not going to play into your delusions that they are otherwise. If you want to be a hypocrite and push a double standard then feel free.. But at least be honest about it.
It's factual that Elba doesn't fit. He matches no description of Roland from the book, he is at best being forced into a role he doesn't fit because the director is a complete fool and is putting his desire to work with an actor over how the character should be portrayed. At worst it's a PC publicity stunt (Goldsman has already idiotically called anyone against it racist).
Spider 198, You are the Lee Harvey Oswald/Charles Manson of being a cool person... Get some help!
shareNo they are excuses, plain and simple. I'm not going to play into your delusions that they are otherwise. If you want to be a hypocrite and push a double standard then feel free.. But at least be honest about it.LOL - call them whatever you want, but it doesn't make the explanations any less valid. The only delusions I've seen during this conversation are yours, in that you think doggedly repeating "hypocrite," "PC," and "double standard" ad nauseam is a legitimate counterargument.
It's factual that Elba doesn't fit. He matches no description of Roland from the book, he is at best being forced into a role he doesn't fit because the director is a complete fool and is putting his desire to work with an actor over how the character should be portrayed. At worst it's a PC publicity stunt (Goldsman has already idiotically called anyone against it racist).If we're talking physical appearance, then you're right - Idris Elba doesn't match the descriptions of Roland from the books. As for every other aspect of Roland's character not related to his appearance? We don't know if he "doesn't fit" yet, but obviously the filmmakers think he does. And again, for whatever reason, you demonstrate your profound and irrational need for there to be something shady or conspiratorial going on behind the scenes to justify your opinion, when most likely, nothing of the sort is going on. All I continue to see from you is more virtual kicking and screaming and weeping and gnashing of teeth, all because the filmmakers dared to make a casting decision you don't approve of. Again, where was all this outrage when Javier Bardem was involved? Or Russell Crowe, for that matter? Neither of them match how Roland was described either, after all. Or could it be that this kind of reaction from you is reserved solely for Idris Elba?
And as I mentioned to someone else earlier about the Akiva Goldsman quote: I read that interview a while back, and I got the impression that he was specifically rebuking those who have been overtly racist in response to Elba's casting, not all those who disapprove in general. share
Technically, Idris and Roland are both tall and both have black hair with some grey/white mixed in. So...at least they both vaguely look alike in terms of stature.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing ๎.
Technically, Idris and Roland are both tall and both have black hair with some grey/white mixed in. So...at least they both vaguely look alike in terms of stature.Y'know, you have a point there. share
Shut up you racist.
shareNo need as Eddie and Odetta/Detta/Susannah are not even in the movie.