Seriously, Wicked Witch? My opinion about her story line - Oz the Great and Powerful (2013) Discussion

[–] Wildstyle26 11 years ago

The whole thing about Mila Kunis going crazy jealous over Oz and wanting to murder him just because he didn't fall for her. It's like, she showed him the way out of the woods for 5 minutes, and now he's supposed to marry her or something. She literally went bonkers over nothing but thin air. I was sitting there thinking "okay ...?"

To be honest, Oz was Theodora's 1st everything. He took all her firsts in one night. Her first dance, kiss, and virginity.

As for what Oz did wrong, his womanizing. if he didn't care about Theodora, he shouldn't have flirted and slept with her. Same for all his other jump-offs. Oz is an *beep* who does things only for himself, and his own gain, included banging and dumping women.

And why the Wicked hated him so much, the apple gave her knowledge. She lost her naivety, and saw what kind of man Oz was, and what he did to her, which was deceive, defile, and dump her. So, I would guess she wants revenge for being treated as his pawn. because all he did was use her.

As for Theodora, I believe it was a crush she had on Oz. Oz being the first man Theodora's formed anything with, she was naive and didn't know better.

But, it being her first, and being a complete blow out upset her. Lots of girls would feel angry, or hurt.

People grieve in different ways. And hell, Theodora was only upset a few hours. She was crushed. She moved too fast, and got with the wrong guy. And chances are, she would have gotten over it. People don't get over something horrible happening in 2 hours. But, while her grief was fresh, and just hit her, Evanora swooped in, manipulated her more, egged her on, then gave her an evil apple.

Theodora only had a few hours to be upset, if not just one hour. So, of course her hurt was at it's strongest there. Because it was still fresh.

Now, she accepted the apples, because she thought it was take away her heartache, and she wouldn't care about what happened. But again, this hurt is fresh. It's just happening over the course of an hour. She just didn't wanna be sad anymore.

She didn't know her sister was evil, or that the apples would make her evil. When she found out those 2 things, she was horrified.

I can understand if people think the whole love/jilted part is corny. But, Theodora didn't become wicked and evil because of that, at least not willingly. People act like when she found out about Oz, she went crazy and started killing or something. Oz upset her. She became wicked because of her sister.

Even when she was upset about Oz x Evanora, and Oz x Glinda, she just broke a mirror, and it seemed that was due to herself. When she cries, she says "You fool, serves you right", before smashing the mirror.

So, she was apparently upset with, and ashamed of, herself, because as Evanora told her, Oz didn't say she'd be his Queen. She just assumed it, and treated is as fact. So, she realized she moved fast, and assumed too much too soon.

So, while upset that Oz didn't want her, I think alot of her anger, and hurt was with herself for allowing herself to fall into that position. Falling for all the flattery and nice words she'd never heard, then it turns out, all they were was just that. Nice words with no feeling. Thus she allowed herself to be used and thrown out, as opposed to taking things slower.

Oz wasn't worth perusing at all, by any woman. Clingy, or Indifferent So, it's made worse when a naive girl fall for the bad boy, because she's easier pray. So, even if Theodora didn't move so fast, Oz still wouldn't have wanted her. But, she didn't know that. It seems she blames herself.

Theodora seemed like the perfect pray. A beautiful girl who's naive, and, possibly, has low self-esteem

And when she bit the apple, and her eyes were opened, she was horrified. So, even with what happened with Oz, she didn't want to be wicked, nor kill anyone. She transformed unwillingly.

The whole ordeal with Oz made her vulnerable, at which point, Evanora swooped in.

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[–] Lisa_Kay 11 years ago

I still think it was silly and poorly executed. Not necessary at all in the story. The movie would have been better off without it.

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[–] frendleechica 11 years ago

"To be honest, Oz was Theodora's 1st everything. He took all her firsts in one night. Her first dance, kiss, and virginity. "

Virginity? I don't think it went that far.

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[–] Wildstyle26 11 years ago

Given how hard Theodora falls for him, I think they slept together. It's Disney, so that don't go past kissing. And when they show kissing, they just press their mouths together. But, they show that kiss, then cut away to flowers, and them holding hands. So, it could be seen they had sex. And that's why Theodora was so hurt. She was naive, as nobody taught her better. No guy ever gave her any attention, gave her anything, or asked her to dance. So, stands to reason, she was a virgin on everything regarding men.

And listen closely to Oz's line, if you watch the movie. Theodora says she feels Oz is the man she belongs with.

Oz's line "Well, we sure get along." Listen to how he says that.

Seems to hint again they slept together, the way he said it. If they slept together the last night, then yeah, they sure as hell do get along.

But, her sleeping with him makes more sense for her heartache. He was the man that gave her her 1sts. A 1st dance, 1st kiss, 1st gift, and then himself took her biggest gift, her virginity.

Most women mistake sex and love, and find out the hard way they are different. But, it may depend on Theodora's time period. It could've been when Oz is set, men courted women seriously. If a guy gave out flowers, and showed interested, then he was courting a potential wife. So, after she'd slept with him, she figured they'd be married. Because she didn't say anything about being his wife until after that night, where she seemed more giddy and chipper than ever.

So, she jumped the gun, but she knew no better, and Oz knew she was naive an inexperienced, perfect pray for a good lay.

And then there's the exchange with Evanora. E tricks Theodora by planting the thought that Oz did all the same things with her the previous night. She says he gave her the music box, and they danced a good while, Evanora says "I can still feel his body pressed against mine" Then, Theodora's eyes widen in horror.

I can give screenshots, but you may have to watch to really see.

Evanora talks about dancing with Oz
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/jasmineflower3/media/Mila-1_zpsace939cb.png.html?filters[user]=116602936&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

Evanora comments she can still feel Oz pressed against her.
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/jasmineflower3/media/Mila-2_zps5c54e17a.png.html?filters[user]=116602936&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

just paste the addresses into a address box. Whenever I use the link button, the pix mess up.

She looked upset to hear about the dancing. But their bodies being together is where she looked completely torn up. You may have to watch the scene again, and really look at Mila. But her reacting to that line gets more shocked and hurt, it's a very subtle change, which I thought Mila did great.

So, I don't think they just danced all night and kissed. Most likely, it went further, which is why Theodora expected to be his Queen, and belonged with him. And why she seemed more bouncy and giddy that day.

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[–] tay-15 11 years ago

Given how hard Theodora falls for him, I think they slept together.

Yeah, and you'd be wrong.

The bear does not quit. The bear will not die.

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[–] Wildstyle26 11 years ago

Yeah, and you'd be wrong.

And you could be wrong thinking they didn't. I think my reasons for believing they did are very understandable and valid.

So, if you've got no serious argument, you're wrong imo until you counter with something important and substantial. Otherwise, you've got nothing and are just closed-mined to someone thinking differently.

But, if you wanna think they didn't go that far, that's your interpretation. Doesn't make mine wrong. Unless, again, you have blatant proof.

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[–] kay_rock 11 years ago

There are a lot of hints in the movie that make you think he took her virginity. Even if sex isn't explicitly described, her loss of innocence and trust is emphasized throughout. If nothing else, it is a metaphorical virginity. It's actually a deeply anti-feminist plot line. We see a con-man acting as a lothario who famous for conning and emotionally abusing women. He is transported to a new world. The first thing he does upon arrival is to con and mislead a beautiful and kind woman. She is devastated. He dumps her and finds a pretty blonde. The two of them torment the embittered girl to death. They live happily ever after. Awesome re-envisioning of the oz storyline. I'm sure Frank Baum would be thrilled.

Movies are IQ tests. The IMDB boards are each person's opportunity to broadcast their score.

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[–] super-staff 11 years ago

It's actually a deeply anti-feminist plot line. We see a con-man acting as a lothario who famous for conning and emotionally abusing women. He is transported to a new world. The first thing he does upon arrival is to con and mislead a beautiful and kind woman. She is devastated. He dumps her and finds a pretty blonde. The two of them torment the embittered girl to death. They live happily ever after. Awesome re-envisioning of the oz storyline. I'm sure Frank Baum would be thrilled.

^^^THIS^^^

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[–] reaseltbim 11 years ago

what hints? i dont remember seeing any

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[–] Howlin Wolf 11 years ago

How does he 'con and mislead' her? SHE suggests that she's going to be his queen - he looks taken aback by the idea, and alarmed that things are moving too fast... He should have been firm and told her it wasn't going to happen, but she made all the running.

It's THIS that makes it 'anti-feminist', in a way... It implies that if a woman doesn't get what she wants, then she might go crazy...

"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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[–] dmahnarch 9 years ago

It is my personal experience that when a woman doesn't get what she wants she DOES go crazy.

I'm running 0 for 4, so far.

I have no 'control' specimen for this test because; even the 'control' went crazy.

____________________________
Kerbal Space Program:
Failure is not an option. It's a requirement!

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[–] Howlin Wolf 9 years ago

 - I've no doubt that it happens, I just doubt that it happens in EVERY case... !

Having said that, this is why I deeply distrust any movement (including some feminists and ALL MRA's) that insists that all of its members are perfect... No human being is perfect; all groups overreact on some occasions.



"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] thelegallywicked 11 years ago

It's very much implied they had sex. They just didn't show it because it's a Disney movie.

Barbara Stanwyck and I used to ride the trolley! ~Andrea Zuckerman

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[–] reaseltbim 11 years ago

implied? how?

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[–] thelegallywicked 11 years ago

They show them dancing to the music at night and then its instantly the next morning. They had sex.

Barbara Stanwyck and I used to ride the trolley! ~Andrea Zuckerman

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[–] Wildstyle26 11 years ago

Given how hard Theodora falls for him, I think they slept together. It's Disney, so that don't go past kissing. And when they show kissing, they just press their mouths together. But, they show that kiss, then cut away to flowers, and them holding hands. So, it could be seen they had sex. And that's why Theodora was so hurt. She was naive, as nobody taught her better. No guy ever gave her any attention, gave her anything, or asked her to dance. So, stands to reason, she was a virgin on everything regarding men.

And listen closely to Oz's line, if you watch the movie. Theodora says she feels Oz is the man she belongs with.

Oz's line "Well, we sure get along." Listen to how he says that.

Seems to hint again they slept together, the way he said it. If they slept together the last night, then yeah, they sure as hell do get along.

But, her sleeping with him makes more sense for her heartache. He was the man that gave her her 1sts. A 1st dance, 1st kiss, 1st gift, and then himself took her biggest gift, her virginity.

Most women mistake sex and love, and find out the hard way they are different. But, it may depend on Theodora's time period. It could've been when Oz is set, men courted women seriously. If a guy gave out flowers, and showed interested, then he was courting a potential wife. So, after she'd slept with him, she figured they'd be married. Because she didn't say anything about being his wife until after that night, where she seemed more giddy and chipper than ever.

So, she jumped the gun, but she knew no better, and Oz knew she was naive an inexperienced, perfect pray for a good lay.

And then there's the exchange with Evanora. E tricks Theodora by planting the thought that Oz did all the same things with her the previous night. She says he gave her the music box, and they danced a good while, Evanora says "I can still feel his body pressed against mine" Then, Theodora's eyes widen in horror.

I can give screenshots, but you may have to watch to really see.

Evanora talks about dancing with Oz
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/jasmineflower3/media/Mila-1_zpsace939cb.png.html?filters[user]=116602936&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

Evanora comments she can still feel Oz pressed against her.
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/jasmineflower3/media/Mila-2_zps5c54e17a.png.html?filters[user]=116602936&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

just paste the addresses into a address box. Whenever I use the link button, the pix mess up.

She looked upset to hear about the dancing. But their bodies being together is where she looked completely torn up. You may have to watch the scene again, and really look at Mila. But her reacting to that line gets more shocked and hurt, it's a very subtle change, which I thought Mila did great.

So, I don't think they just danced all night and kissed. Most likely, it went further, which is why Theodora expected to be his Queen, and belonged with him. And why she seemed more bouncy and giddy that day.

Also, somebody explained the filmaking process that how sex was implied in the older days when television was more modest.

codebreaker2001 explains this.

There is the possibility that they have, but in order to see it, we have to set the Wayback Machine to the 1960s and travel further back along that line (which in a way also applies to Disney).

Back when the original Wizard of Oz was in production, there was a thing called the Hayes Code (otherwise known as the Motion Picture Code). Now, for anyone who knows their film history, they would know that the Hayes Code was implemented as a means of censorship, not allowing material that would be considered as "obscene" to be shown in theaters. If you notice a lot of movies from the 1960 on back, they do not include a clear view of violence and sexuality is not directly seen or referenced. That's because the Hayes Code tried to make sure that such material was never viewed. Many filmmakers during that period of time managed to skirt around the issue (for example, some acts of violence in film occurring either off screen or barely in view). Of course, killing a wicked witch with a bucket of water would be within the Hayes Code, so it can be clearly viewed. One of the best examples of skirting around the presentation of sexual content, there were many other "alternatives" used instead. The most common you would see within the 1950s are two characters kissing, and the scene would fade out, only to fade in at a later time, where the characters are seen doing a regular activity of some sort after the big event (a good example of this is Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo the scene where Judy comes out of the bathroom fully made up to look like Madeleine. They kiss for a prolong period of time, the scene fades out and the fades into a later time with Judy getting ready to go out with Scotty for dinner).

Now, since we know that for Disney movies, the odds of us seeing Oz and Theodora hooking up, Sam Raimi could have used an "alternative" that many filmmakers of the past used to skirt around the censorship placed when it comes to sexuality. So, remember the scene in question where they dance? Well, the kiss, the tilt up to the sky, the crossfade from night to day and the tilt down to Oz and Theodora holding hands as they walk down the yellow brick road indicates that there was something more than just a kiss that occurred between them (not to mention the way Theodora acts towards Oz, and Oz's behavior towards some of the things Theodora says to him prior to coming across Finley, and also the fact that they're holding hands). And, to be fair, this isn't the only Disney film where such a scene of possible romantic interlude between two characters be included (one such example is the "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" scene from The Lion King, an animated movie no less).

So, there is the possibility that Oz may have taken her virginity. Any filmmaker who has watched films and want to present this possibility would include details like that (any any filmmaker who grew up watching those movies would more than likely look back at them to figure out how they were done, and since Sam Raimi is a seasoned filmmaker, he would know about the Hayes Code much like many directors within his age group).

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[–] reaseltbim 11 years ago

I just really have a hard time believing that she would sleep with a guy she just met. Like literally she just met him. I know she was excited but I don't see how they would sleep together so fast.

I know the wizard was a player, but I also don't see him going for her that fast. the other girls at the beginning of the movie that he seduced, well, they knew him already, maybe for weeks or something. I don't know if the wizard would try to sleep with a girl the very first day they met.

Theodora was really sweet and innocent too so I doubt sex was on her mind. she was never kissed before so I don't see how they would go from a simple kiss to full blown sex.

It just seems so unrealistic. So out of place. Out of place for both the land of Oz and the time period this movie was made. I know the wizard slept around, but I really doubt he slept with girls after meeting them.
he obviously had to get to know them first.

And the day after, It just didn't feel like they slept together. It felt like they were still just friends. I know she was talking about being his queen, but I don't think that meant they did it.

Everyone saying they did have sex, that's just because you have a different perception about sex

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[–] Wildstyle26 11 years ago

Well if you don't want to believe that had sex, you don't have to.

But the idea that they did is certainly not too far fetched, and people do have valid reason for thinking so.

So, can't really argue it. Plenty of women in real life lose their virginity to one-night stands. A guy I talked to reminded me of Oz. Says he took 2 girls virginity on a one-night stand and both regret it because he didn't give a damn about either of them.

So, Oz just came off as a dog. I never thought he had to know a woman, just that they had to be attractive and he would work his magic.

And Theodora was naive, possibly had low self-esteem and moved too fast. Theodora's type is the easiest pray for the player.

But that's me. Everyone has a different view on her storyline, and whether or not she slept with Oz. To me, it'd make no sense she go that crazy over a guy she just met if they didn't even have sex.

Sex tends to cloud women because sadly, some women try to connect sex with love.

Every time I hear people mention they have a friends with benefits / *beep* buddies relationship, usually the girl starts talking about how she loves the guy now, and wants to get serious. Even though all they were doing was having sex. Now they'e attached.

To me, it just seemed Theodora was one of those women-got seduced, attached through sex and used.

But yeah. If you don't think she did, you're not wrong. Same for some who they they did to the do.

Just depends on how you wanna look at it.

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[–] reaseltbim 11 years ago

is not about wanting to believe she did or didn't. It's just weird because:
For one, is there sex in Oz? i guess there must be because where do people come from, but what are their customs of the people of Oz? do they marry before doing it? Oz doesn't seem that kind of place.

second, like I said the time period. you mention your friend and the two girls, but times now are much different than before when the movie is set. yeah the movie is made now,but it is set in the past. 20 YEARS Before the first OZ movie actually. I don't think people back then just slept around as soon as they met.

Also, I don't know but I am not sure the Wizard was that much of a monster. to seduce and sleep with a girl he just met, that just.... I don't know, that makes him insanely unlikable and horrible. Some guy that takes advantage of a naive girl like that. well, he is usually the villain, the bad guy of the story.

You have to remember he is supposed to be the Hero. the good guy, how can the good guy take advantage of a poor innocent girl.

So, yes, maybe they did sleep together. maybe it happened. IT just seems SO Unlikely to me. Seems so far fetched. not only because of the time this was set, but it's just, I don't know,
Okay to me it's like it is more believable that she was just overly attached and crazy than to believe he took advantage of her like that. is more realistic for me that way.
And you can say that there are hints about them sleeping together, but I could say that's You putting your own thoughts and seeing something that is not there. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

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[–] Wildstyle26 11 years ago

You have to remember he is supposed to be the Hero. the good guy, how can the good guy take advantage of a poor innocent girl.

Oz is the protagonist. Doesn't have to mean he's good.

A protagonist is just who the story follows, and a protagonist isn't always a "good" guy. Kill Bill is a prime example of that. Where the protagonist is a sadistic assassin that murdered people and enjoyed it. She was far from good. But she's who we follow in the story, and she's who triumphs in the end.

Afro Samurai is the same. Afro is our lead, but he's not good in any way. Threw away everything for revenge, betrayed, and eventually killed, his best friend. And in the end, he beats his foe and triumphs. In the sequel he gets back into the revenge game again, and triumphs again, after killing a little boy's father in front of him.

Everybody Loves Raymond Ray is our star. But his selfishness seemed almost sociopathic. He is indifferent to his wife outside of sex, and Debra even says he's selfish in bed too. He doesn't like being with his kids. Calls his wife a smelly tramp once. And when they got into a fight another time, she says he's cheap, and he back-handedly calls her a whore. Not just Ray. All the main characters seemed hateful to a degree. But still our stars.

So, Oz being the star character doesn't save him from being an *beep* Movie's can fallow bad guys as well. And Oz could be seen as one, but Glinda was working on reforming him, and getting him to use his lying and trickery for a good cause at the very least. Unlike Evanora and later Theo who were totally wicked. oz wasn't evil or wicked. But he was not a good man at the start. He even said he didn't want to be. He cared about being rich and known-a big-shot.

Oz being a con man and taking advantage of advantage of Theodora doesn't seem too unusual far me. Is it unlikable, very much. But that was Oz's flaw as a character. He was selfish and out for personal gain. The guy the tricked people for a living, lied about being a great wizard to live in a palace and be rich, and can't be bothered to remember people's names sometimes and treated his one friend like crap. And Theodora talks about him saving Oz and its' people, he's still thinking about gold. China Girl only lived because Finley went into the town to see if anyone needed help. Oz didn't care and wasn't going to go. But he needed Finley as his lackey.

So I do think he took advantage of Theodora, but given Oz track record, I don't find it hard to believe. He's done it before. He's broken many hearts, and didn't care. He said to Finley "she'll get over me, they always do." So, he breaks their hearts, but it's ok because they get over it-according to Oz.

So, he's just an ass. As you said, one of the reasons listed for not liking the film was Oz was a douche. Which I agree with-heavily.

I liked the film. But not for Oz, as there was hardly anything to like about him.

And you can say that there are hints about them sleeping together, but I could say that's You putting your own thoughts and seeing something that is not there. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

Lets no get defensive. If you don't think they slept together, as I said fine. But don't say I just and stupid and delusional. Them sleeping together makes just as much sense as you saying they didn't just because you can't buy into it and/or don't like the idea.

Sometimes a cigar is just cigar, and sometimes there's more. It's hinted meaning the director / author put things in that could infer something, but it's left ambiguous enough that it's open for interpretation without having to shoot down 1 side.

Authors do that. They know what they're doing. But to keep fans guessing, they play everything right to achieve that. The Bleach anime series. There's a heavy debate on who the main character-Ichigo loves. Most say Rukia, and some say Orihime. Both sides shows pages, quotes etc to prove their point. However, all those things were up for debate seeing as the 2 sides were still opposed. The author said Ichigo x Rukia were more than friends, but less than lovers. So, he didn't really confirm or deny anything. They aren't lovers now, but he didn't deny whether or not they could be in love.

Someone will show a page, and another will say "well all that means is..", or "that doesn't prove anything."

What's evidence for some is just trivial for others. It's like a religious debate. What some think as evidence for God, others say is just a coincidence, or there's scientific ways to explain anything.

So it's a matter of what some people gather.

So, you can see it however you feel it's best to see it.

Someone said it was implied they slept together. You wondered how. I gave all the thoughts on why people settle with the idea they had sex.

Now, if you didn't buy any of that, then that reasoning didn't work for you, which is understandable. But it's enough for other people, and they wouldn't be wrong, just like you aren't wrong if you gather Theo is just a nutjob.

So, if you don't think they did, fine. But others that do believe they did have valid reasoning for it.

That's the point I am trying to make. I am not trying to make you admit or think they had sex. Nor am I saying you're wrong, Just explain the viewpoint of side that says they did.

I seriously hope you can at least understand why I, and others, would think that, even if you don't agree.

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[–] reaseltbim 11 years ago

relax friend. you didn't have to write a whole book lol

Is not that I want to believe they didn't. If they did that's fine. It just seems more unlikely that they did. There is no proof they did. Neither the writer nor the director said they did.

It is all speculation and all vague evidence that they did. I am not even saying that your answer is wrong.
It just seems to me that everyone saying they did sleep together it's like you guys Want it to be that way. It's like You guys really want that to be true or something.
And like I said, sounds like putting personal emotions and your own mentality into the fact that they did it. I am not saying I believe they didn't do it. If they did then that's fine. There's just no real evidence they did.

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[–] Wildstyle26 11 years ago

Exactly. People say they did based on how the see Theodora's reactions, Oz's character, and as someone said about the code. Those tings are all opinion. So, it's likely they did, but also possible they didn't.

You're saying there's no evidence, but because to you there wasn't. All the stuff I pointed out is evidence for some.

So, really the whole debate just snowballed. So, Theo x Oz's sex, or lack there of, is all subjective.

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[–] MysticGoddess327 10 years ago

It is all speculation and all vague evidence that they did. I am not even saying that your answer is wrong.
It just seems to me that everyone saying they did sleep together it's like you guys Want it to be that way. It's like You guys really want that to be true or something.

There's just as much evidence to support they didn't get close and have sex as there is to say they did. You want to be correct just as much as you're accusing SilverWolfe and anyone else who disagrees with you and putting your own emotions into it, and arguing about it makes you a hypocrite. It's all speculation either way.

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[–] libby2130 8 years ago

click on the 3rd word up above the box when typing a message or link it is the word Link and it is underlined

http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/jasmineflower3/media/Mila-1_zpsace939cb.png.html?filters[user]=116602936&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

copy and paste your link in between the 2 sets of brackets

[url]http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/jasmineflower3/media/Mila-1_zpsace939cb.png.html?filters[user]=116602936&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0[/url

you can see the second link is not highlihghted this time I didn't add ] at the end of the 2nd bracketat the end of the link... you must add that for the link to be highlighted

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[–] codebreaker2001 11 years ago

There is the possibility that they have, but in order to see it, we have to set the Wayback Machine to the 1960s and travel further back along that line (which in a way also applies to Disney).

Back when the original Wizard of Oz was in production, there was a thing called the Hayes Code (otherwise known as the Motion Picture Code). Now, for anyone who knows their film history, they would know that the Hayes Code was implemented as a means of censorship, not allowing material that would be considered as "obscene" to be shown in theaters. If you notice a lot of movies from the 1960 on back, they do not include a clear view of violence and sexuality is not directly seen or referenced. That's because the Hayes Code tried to make sure that such material was never viewed. Many filmmakers during that period of time managed to skirt around the issue (for example, some acts of violence in film occurring either off screen or barely in view). Of course, killing a wicked witch with a bucket of water would be within the Hayes Code, so it can be clearly viewed. One of the best examples of skirting around the presentation of sexual content, there were many other "alternatives" used instead. The most common you would see within the 1950s are two characters kissing, and the scene would fade out, only to fade in at a later time, where the characters are seen doing a regular activity of some sort after the big event (a good example of this is Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo the scene where Judy comes out of the bathroom fully made up to look like Madeleine. They kiss for a prolong period of time, the scene fades out and the fades into a later time with Judy getting ready to go out with Scotty for dinner).

Now, since we know that for Disney movies, the odds of us seeing Oz and Theodora hooking up, Sam Raimi could have used an "alternative" that many filmmakers of the past used to skirt around the censorship placed when it comes to sexuality. So, remember the scene in question where they dance? Well, the kiss, the tilt up to the sky, the crossfade from night to day and the tilt down to Oz and Theodora holding hands as they walk down the yellow brick road indicates that there was something more than just a kiss that occurred between them (not to mention the way Theodora acts towards Oz, and Oz's behavior towards some of the things Theodora says to him prior to coming across Finley, and also the fact that they're holding hands). And, to be fair, this isn't the only Disney film where such a scene of possible romantic interlude between two characters be included (one such example is the "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" scene from The Lion King, an animated movie no less).

So, there is the possibility that Oz may have taken her virginity. Any filmmaker who has watched films and want to present this possibility would include details like that (any any filmmaker who grew up watching those movies would more than likely look back at them to figure out how they were done, and since Sam Raimi is a seasoned filmmaker, he would know about the Hayes Code much like many directors within his age group).

But this one's eating my popcorn!

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[–] MCoverKT 11 years ago

The great thing about movies is you can interpret what you want from the story and you're neither right not wrong. I think they totally boned.

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[–] kaneforgov 11 years ago

"The great thing about movies is you can interpret what you want from the story and you're neither right not wrong."

Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth.

In movies and in literature there is something called authorial intent. There is absolutely correct and incorrect interpretation.

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[–] MCoverKT 11 years ago

So with your authorial intent, everything is in black and white and no one can get any other message out of the art form? You stay closed minded like that, I'll interpret art the way I see fit, thank you much.

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[–] kaneforgov 11 years ago

No, art and literature are open to interpretation but there is correct and incorrect interpretation, according to the author's intent. This requires you to be educated when interpreting a piece of art or film and understanding the author's or artist's underlying intention. Then you can make an educated interpretation.

Just saying "here's my interpretation" doesn't make it correct. It's not just an opinion.

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[–] MCoverKT 11 years ago

Wow, I'm glad I'm not as educated as you because I like making my own decisions about how I feel.

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[–] summerishere77 11 years ago

Both books and movies leave endings ambiguous on purpose, so the audience has to decipher for themselves what the ending is/means. So not all moves and literature have a correct and incorrect interpretation.

As for me, I believe they did have sex. Otherwise why would she have been so attached to him? Just dancing the night away and a kiss wouldn't have her acting like a love sick puppy. She was talking forever, ruling Oz together while he was looking for his way out after leading her to believe he loved her.

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[–] Chocolate_Swan 11 years ago

Authorial intent is only one approach to literary criticism. No professor of literary criticism would tell you it's the only (or the best) way. Many literary critics, if not most these days, employ the death-of-the-author approach, considering authorial intent irrelevant to the work.

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[–] Scribblenaut 11 years ago

I thought it was interesting, it was just poorly executed. Anyways, Theodora didn't turn evil because of jealousy. She was heartbroken and asked her sister to take the pain away. So Evanora gave her an apple that didn't just take away her pain, but all of her compassion and goodness as well. By the time Theodora realizes that Evanora is the Wicked Witch, it's too late, she's already consumed by jealousy and hatred.

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[–] lokis_angels 11 years ago

I agree, and I very much like you can say what you said in only four (4) lines of text. Well done!

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[–] whatwazdat 11 years ago

I think there are naive people like Theodora participating in this thread as well. C'mon folks, does everything have to be spelled out for you? And if you're young and not quite there, it's okay. You'll soon find out, adults have sex. Heck, with all the teenage pregnancies, kids have sex too. So this shouldn't be too shocking. Oz did it with Theodora, accept it.

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[–] lferrigon-1 11 years ago

It does make sense that they had sex especially how Theodora falls for him.

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[–] weedwaxer 10 years ago

Theodora was always lawful evil the apple just removed any last restraint she had. Theodora is first introduced to us wearing red and black colours symbolising sacrifice,passion and evil. Afterwards her outfit is all black symbolising the sacrifice of her passion had been made and all that was left was evil. Sex has long been used as a gateway to acquiring both mystical and mundane power. Only after Theodora had sex did she truly start to fulfil her potential and start to use her full magical power.

When she turned ugly she said let him see what he turned me in to but the truth is she was always ugly inside and wanted to stay this way because that was who she truly was. This is why when Oz said you are always welcome back if you can find the good in you she screamed never because the good in her heart never existed. It is no coincidence that her namesake Theodora the Empress of Byzantine empire has been described as having an insatiable lust and being shrewish, vulgar and mean spirited.

The same can be said about Evanora who was always ugly and evil but disguised both. Her colours were green for envy and black for evil. Of course she was envious of Glinda's power. In "The Wiz" broadway musical she was named Evvamene ("Ever mean").

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[–] granitodiaz 9 years ago

her story is unbelievable

The stupid have one thing in common.They alter the facts to fit their views not the other way

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[–] ricky_says_hi 9 years ago

I like the idea but I think the main problem is that Theodora is just too underdeveloped as a character. The Wicked Witch becoming evil is interesting enough of a plot to warrant a film on its own (hence the popularity of Wicked). If they'd known they would be making a sequel, they could have saved it for that

I'm gonna die of long hair!

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[–] android_movie 9 years ago

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Enough said.

Show me the holes!

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[–] Moonlighty 9 years ago

Enough said if you want to go for the most overdone cliched non interesting explanation possible. Couldn't even have her decide on being the WW on her own account, she had to be tricked into it? That's not interesting.

-
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.

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[–] android_movie 9 years ago

Most cliched but yet it's true with some women. Anyway... if you think the plot is lame, that's an opinion.

Show me the holes!

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