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When will filmmakers stop worshiping the Kennedys?


Yet another film about Jackie O and her clan of misfit Kennedys. I thought the Showtime series already covered this area. I don't understand what peoples fascination with JFK and Jackie O is. He was president two years didn't really accomplish anything and then was killed. He was a man whore with multiple mistresses including Marilyn Monroe and people went gaga over his smile and the dresses that Jackie were wearing. People were dumb enough to believe that they had this storybook marriage when that was far from the truth instead of the cheating scum that he was. She herself was a slut who slept with all the Kennedy Brothers then married a billionaire for money. And yet people look on Jack Kennedy as the greatest president ever, even though he is overrated and Jackie as Mother Theresa. I mean, why not do a movie on a president that people may not be that familiar with like Franklin Pierce?

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Hell will freeze over first. I will be the first to admit that JFK is overrated and should have been impeached over the womanizing, yet I have kept almost every magazine article and newspaper clipping about the Kennedys over the years in scrapbooks because they are so fascinating.

When I gave a co-worker more than twenty odd books on JFK in 1992, she was thrilled to bits. She couldn't afford to buy books at a bookstore because she had a family to take care of and I had more freedom and some extra income because I did not have children. Most of these concerned the assassination and were on the best-seller list. The Oliver Stone film was in theaters at the time and had just won two Academy Awards. She did not get to see it because she did not have the spare time, so I gave her the VHS copy of the film some time later. She was ecstatic and so grateful. What really bowled her over was the Star magazine extra of Jackie's life filled to the brim with gorgeous pictures.

It is sad that people in this country, particularly the media, do not have their priorities right, and we should be worshipping Jesus instead of JFK, but as long as Jackie, Jack, and that dysfunctional family continue to make both news and money, the situation will not change. As for Franklin Pierce, a fourth cousin four times removed of Barbara Bush, he was the worst President of the nineteenth century with no charisma. There was class and money, but he hated blacks, other minorities, and above all poor people, so you could say that things do run in families, genetically speaking. Franklin Pierce is not a hot topic among the Hollywood elites, much less the Establishment historians, and JFK still sells. From what I'm hearing Natalie Portman will become the fifteenth person to win an Oscar for portraying a real person. Love it.

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Ok, thank you for the info about Franklin Pierce, but my point was that they should do a movie about a President that people may not be familiar with. How many JFK Bush and Lincoln movies do we need? Do one on Millard Filmore

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CBS Sunday morning did a profile of Millard Fillmore several years ago, and he wasn't much better than Pierce; a genuine crook and a racist to boot. He is a distant cousin of Diana, Princess of Wales through one of her maternal American great-great-grandmothers Ellen Wood, but that is about the only thing going for him.

The only truly great late nineteenth century President other than Lincoln was President James Garfield, who like his predecessor, was also born poor, became an educated professional, married a better-born woman, went into politics, was elected President in a year ending in zero (in Garfield's case 1880), and was assassinated by a deranged nut-job nursing a grudge. His story would make an absolutely fabulous movie (I can just see Bradley Cooper in that role), but so far Hollywood isn't biting. PBS, however, did devote an episode of The American Experience to Garfield not long ago, which was quite eye-opening. A wonderful example of an upwardly mobile, gifted, deserving individual with a high level of emotional intelligence who was cut down in his prime. He was also a war hero who served as an officer in the Union Army during the Civil War when Abraham Lincoln was Commander-in-Chief. We could use another President like him. I would take one James Garfield over ten JFKs any day of the week.

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Hell will freeze over first. I will be the first to admit that JFK is overrated and should have been impeached over the womanizing, yet I have kept almost every magazine article and newspaper clipping about the Kennedys over the years in scrapbooks because they are so fascinating.

When I gave a co-worker more than twenty odd books on JFK in 1992, she was thrilled to bits. She couldn't afford to buy books at a bookstore because she had a family to take care of and I had more freedom and some extra income because I did not have children. Most of these concerned the assassination and were on the best-seller list. The Oliver Stone film was in theaters at the time and had just won two Academy Awards. She did not get to see it because she did not have the spare time, so I gave her the VHS copy of the film some time later. She was ecstatic and so grateful. What really bowled her over was the Star magazine extra of Jackie's life filled to the brim with gorgeous pictures.

It is sad that people in this country, particularly the media, do not have their priorities right, and we should be worshipping Jesus instead of JFK, but as long as Jackie, Jack, and that dysfunctional family continue to make both news and money, the situation will not change. As for Franklin Pierce, a fourth cousin four times removed of Barbara Bush, he was the worst President of the nineteenth century with no charisma. There was class and money, but he hated blacks, other minorities, and above all poor people, so you could say that things do run in families, genetically speaking. Franklin Pierce is not a hot topic among the Hollywood elites, much less the Establishment historians, and JFK still sells. From what I'm hearing Natalie Portman will become the fifteenth person to win an Oscar for portraying a real person. Love it.



I disagree with almost every word of your post. And yet I agree with pretty much all of it.

LOL!

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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He should have been impeached for the womanizing? He was elected President, not Pope. Would you refuse life saving surgery from a top class surgeon because he got a blow job from a nurse behind his wife's back? Something that is none of your business anyway. I doubt the black people who, for the first time, were able to go to University cared that he was sticking it in Marilyn Monroe (Something that hasn't been proven, in any case). To judge a man who never got complete a full term, isn't exactly fair. Take into consideration the lives of Americans his presidency saved, and compare those to the amount of deaths his murder enabled. Consider also the high possibility that his efforts to make the world a better place, err precisely got him killed. In that light, to call him overrated is a disgrace.

To answer the original point, people are not necessarily interested in biopic movies because they think the subject was a wonderful saint, but because they were flawed human beings. Jackie Kennedy had the best view of the most famous murder of the 20th Century. If you're just going to dismiss her as a slut, that only shows the lack of depth you have, if you're unable to look deeper than that.

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He should have been impeached for the womanizing? He was elected President, not Pope. Would you refuse life saving surgery from a top class surgeon because he got a blow job from a nurse behind his wife's back? Something that is none of your business anyway. I doubt the black people who, for the first time, were able to go to University cared that he was sticking it in Marilyn Monroe (Something that hasn't been proven, in any case). To judge a man who never got complete a full term, isn't exactly fair. Take into consideration the lives of Americans his presidency saved, and compare those to the amount of deaths his murder enabled. Consider also the high possibility that his efforts to make the world a better place, err precisely got him killed. In that light, to call him overrated is a disgrace.

To answer the original point, people are not necessarily interested in biopic movies because they think the subject was a wonderful saint, but because they were flawed human beings. Jackie Kennedy had the best view of the most famous murder of the 20th Century. If you're just going to dismiss her as a slut, that only shows the lack of depth you have, if you're unable to look deeper than that.


Thank youuuu!

And I never fail to be amazed by how many people hear the word 'morality' and they immediately think of the sex life of the person in question.

Unless you're committing rape, then what they heck does sex have to do with morality or immorality??

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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On a more basic point, how about the hypocrisy of questioning the morality of another person, whilst taking such an interest in that person's sex life and personal relationships?

It reminds me of a comedian who said that he was once approached by a woman after the show, who told him "You were disgraceful, rude and disgusting... And you were the same the last time I came to see one of your shows".

It seems some people are only happy when they're offended. Particularly by things they are not forced to acknowledge.

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How dare you say that to me!

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There was class and money, but he hated blacks, other minorities, and above all poor people, so you could say that things do run in families, genetically speaking.


Well I wouldn't say that all the Bush family were like Franklin Pierce when it came to as you put it hating blacks, other minorities and poor people. Matter of fact, ex-Pres. George W. Bush one of his twin daughters Jenna became very involved and is very caring as well. She wrote a book Ana's Story: A Journey of Hope and also co-wrote along w/her mother a book encouraging children to read titled Read All About It. Jenna's first book chronicles her work w/UNICEF sponsored charities in Latin America, also she visit the drought stricken Paraguay in 2006, while working as intern for United Nation's Children's Fund. The profits she made from her first book went to UNICEF. Jenna is a teacher, who believes EVERY child should get education; it doesn't matter the color of their skin and/or if they are poor or not, she wants to make a difference. I definitely wouldn't put her in the "Franklin Pierce category way of thinking". Below is more information.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenna_Bush_Hager

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What is it with you repugnantcans and your love of impeachment? Were you so eager to impeach Bush for lying to the American people about the reasons for invading Iraq? Bet not. How come we didn't hear you screaming for Bush's impeachment for allowing 9/11 to happen? His Anti Terroriasm Task Force met a grand total of ZERO times between January of '01 and September of '01, and let's not forget the ignoring of the August PDB that warned of bin Laden attacking inside the US and using planes as missiles. Did we hear the word impeachment uttered even once on the right side of the aisle? Bet not. And tell us why more time has been spent by the repugnantcans investigating Benghazi, on foreign soil with a death toll of FOUR, than September 11th, 2001, on American soil with a death toll of 3000?

Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

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Never. Just as the obsession with Marilyn Monroe has continued long after her death. Jackie loved an extremely interesting life as well as her close and extended family members. Grey Gardens anyone?

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It might help to know that the Kennedys have a kind of 'mystique' about them, that few other political families have. Note how often "Camelot" is invoked along with them. Both JFK and RFK had great charisma and idealism. Granted, JFK may have have infidelity issues, but that didn't really hurt anyone except his wife.

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It might help to know that the Kennedys have a kind of 'mystique' about them, that few other political families have. Note how often "Camelot" is invoked along with them. Both JFK and RFK had great charisma and idealism. Granted, JFK may have have infidelity issues, but that didn't really hurt anyone except his wife.

Yes, it was a dynasty perfectly cast. And an Irish greek tragedy to boot.

Plus, the murder of the president really was a rip in the space-time continuum: it wasn't just a shock at the time, but JFK's death (to say nothing about the ugly details behind it) was the pin in the balloon of Cold War tension which had been building since the advent of The Bomb at the end of WW2 nearly twenty years earlier. The assassination was, as everyone said then, really eerie. People didn't know what apocalypse was going to befall the rest of us after Kennedy was shot.

We may have avoided nuclear annihilation, but everything really did change after the murder --- some thing's overtly, some things more subtly but profoundly (to say nothing of how it was the start of the public no longer trusting our institutions, followed by 11 years of Vietnam and then Watergate which sealed the cynicism for good).

So when you combine the kind of star power that the Kennedys represented, the sense of uppercrust style blended with a concern for the working class which seemed to be increasingly genuine (Bobby was probably behind that), and then the catastrophe awaiting it all, it makes for a better movie than any movie can achieve.

It had it all. Caesar will never top it.

Which is why some of the better documentaries are always superior to the endless slew of fictionalized movies and TV miniseries about the Kennedys: the real life events and characters are far better than any Hollywood script writer or casting agent could possibly compete with.

Speaking of documentaries, I have a fondness for The American Experiences "The Kennedys" on PBS from 1992 (but avoid the chopped-down three hour version which ruins it, the full four-hour original is what you want) and, for a little more political substance, 2013's "JFK: A President Betrayed" with narrator Morgan Freeman.

Of course, there are soooo many. Not all of them are equally good.

And everyone who's never seen "Rush To Judgment" from 1967 really should. It's a quiet B&W documentary, based on Mark Lane's book, and it's a no-frills affair. But it's perhaps the most damning -- and chilling -- early entry about the assassination, with all these early eyewitness interviews, long before the subject had become over-covered and done to death, and before so many people and projects with an agenda had chimed in on both sides of the issue. (It's on Youtube).

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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For someone who has spent a great deal of time on JFK, I am surprised you do not mention the medicare and civil rights legislation JFK submitted to Congress, which was passed by LBJ after JFK's murder. At least Rachel Maddow gives credit to JFK for his contribution to medicare!

What about the very first nuclear test ban treaty, signed by the Soviet Union in the fall of 1963 - that was a land mark event!

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Yes. The only good things to come out of an LBJ presidency were Kennedy initiatives -- although it likely took LBJ's arm-twisting skill in the Senate to push them through.

I think Johnson's desire to not pale in contrast to his dapper predecessor was the motive, however. Certainly, Kennedy would never have pursued Vietnam in the same way LBJ did.

Kennedy was also aware that public assistance be structured in such a way to not push fathers out of households so those households could qualify. But LBJ's great society seemed much less interested in those kinds of details.

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So why did you agree with the first post in this thread? Kennedy DID accomplish some lasting achievements that have significantly benefited the less fortunate among us - unlike Bush, Trump?

I really do not care for the right wing smears against all things Kennedy. And don't forget the vitriolic hatred toward the Kennedy's before the assassination. It was under wraps for several decades afterwards but then has slowly emerged again since the Reagan era. I believe it is an effort to minimize the importance of the assassination as more information comes out to suggest the official story is a load of BS.

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So why did you agree with the first post in this thread?

Did I?

I only agreed that they wouldn't stop making movies about them. And asserted that the real thing was more interesting than the fictionalizations.

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The second post in the thread (not the first, but which was also a vicious RW smear), you stated:

I disagree with almost every word of your post. And yet I agree with pretty much all of it.


Did I misunderstand your statement?

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What they snarked about the scandals, the overdone topic.... but you seem to be ignoring what I did write.

And even though you quote me as saying "I disagree with almost every word of" their point, you still disregard it, highlighting only what I said about my juxtaposed agreement. It's about irony.

Not everything can be worded exactly as you choose.

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Maybe some of you people should actually see the film and the complex revisionism that it presents.

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I was not ignoring that part of your statement - it made sense to me. I was confused by the other half of the statement. And I thought the post you were commenting on was nothing but a RW smear attack, intended to besmirch the Kennedy legacy and to minimize the importance/impact of the Kennedy assassination - which you claim to be interested in.

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I'm pro-Kennedy. But you don't help defend their legacy with your prissybutt righteousness one bit.

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You still have not answered my simple question - what part of that post did you agree with?

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I don't think your question is so simple because of your sanctimonious reactions to everything said to you.

I strongly agree the Kennedys have been unfairly smeared for decades; some of it is true or has a basis in truth -- and there is a fixation on that which never ends, but much of it is bunk or irrelevant.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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So my 'sanctimonious' reaction is why you can not answer a simple question? Just wanted to flush out whether or not you are one of these Roger Stone types - sounds like that is the case.

When one resorts to personal attacks (sanctimonious), it reveals quite a bit about the source!!!!

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I've read a lot about these people, especially the President and Jackie.

They weren't really the best people as a whole, but because of the assassination the public bought Jackie's, very carefully worded, story of "Camelot."

Interesting people, but what a joke. JFK was not a great President, was a drug addict and I think IF he had been re-elected in 1964 he would have left office in a wheelchair or dead. He was sick and it was kept from the public.

He also appointed his brother Attorney General before he had tried even one case.

Joe Kennedy got what he wanted. Now the family leans on the real estate he amassed in New England for money. Some of them dabble in vanity projects but nobody ever accused a Kennedy of working too hard.

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Did any of you on this thread actually see this movie? The reason I ask is because the film did not exactly make Jackie come off as an honest or nice person.

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JFK and his older brother, Joe Jr. signed up to serve during WWII and did not want a desk job. Joe Jr. lost his life fighting for this country. JFK pulled strings to be in combat rather than a safe assignment in Washington DC.

They were willing to put their lives on the line for this country. That is much more than anyone can say about Trump or George W. Bush!

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People who think it's all about Kennedy worship or loving Jackie or thinking JFK was the greatest President are way off base.

Yes, I'm sure there are some people who think like that, but many fewer than there used to be because of the passage of time and revelations about the individuals and politics involved. The real reason movies like Jackie continue to be made is the resonance that that era has for Americans and the great fondness, whether justified or not, that the public has for the early 1960s. It was such a short period - just 3 years, 1961-63 - but it looms disproportionately large in our cultural consciousness.

I believe this is because it seems in hindsight like a last golden age of confidence, style and good manners before the social revolution of the late 60s and early 70s swept all that away. This idea would have seemed laughable to Americans at the time, who thought they were living in a period of great stress and furthermore a time of vulgarity and low standards ... the "vast wasteland" and all that. They were right compared to what had come before, but looking back from our own sweatpants-wearing, Kardashian-watching era of no standards of social behavior at all, it seems practically Austenian.

Because they were a stylish couple who outwardly seemed to live exactly the sort of sophisticated life that upwardly Americans aspired to, JFK and Jackie are symbols of the era, but I don't think the tremendous attention and affection you see today has much to do with them, individually. It's nostalgia for (an idealized version) of a time that seems better in many ways than our own. [INSERT: Obligatory comment about sexism, racism, homophobia, yada yada yada. Whatever. With all its flaws, the late postward period seems to excite a lot of interest and admiration.]

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The real reason movies like Jackie continue to be made is the resonance that that era has for Americans and the great fondness, whether justified or not, that the public has for the early 1960s. It was such a short period - just 3 years, 1961-63 - but it looms disproportionately large in our cultural consciousness.

I believe this is because it seems in hindsight like a last golden age of confidence, style and good manners before the social revolution of the late 60s and early 70s swept all that away. This idea would have seemed laughable to Americans at the time, who thought they were living in a period of great stress and furthermore a time of vulgarity and low standards ...


And that's the essence of it, yes.

As constraining and hypocritical as the culture may have been in some ways, the postwar era saw the rise of the middleclass and the solidifying of the American Myth under the strengthened unions and the anti-trust laws which were still new and in effect. There was the aspiration for "something better" which was routine if not ubiquitous. That sleepy optimism of the '50s reached a peak by the end of the decade and seemed to set us up for the Kennedy era of the early-'60s.

And here was an unusually polished, photogenic couple in a White House whose policies seemed to becoming genuinely populist in focus, that couple displaying all the good taste and sophistication and "class" that the '50s had been striving for.

Yet all of that was juxtaposed with the brand new threat of The Bomb which really did create an incredible collective tension just underneath the surface. The period was the twilight zone. Sunshine and shadow. Was the world starting over, or was it about to end?

And then this would-be Camelot ends with an assassination and an assassination scenario so dark it almost couldn't be overcome, the culture changing forever within only a year or so. Even half a century later, it still seems like a profound turning point, a wound never to be healed even as the culture moves on, the population ages away, new generations emerge who know or care little or nothing about the era and what it reflected.

Add the perfect casting to the mix, and there is a gauzy, poignant sense of idealized potential this period seemed to offer, at the time and certainly in retrospect. Only today, it's hard to imagine the story turning out any differently than it did.

It's kind of metaphor for life in a weird way, actual politics aside. A particular photograph you never quite forgot about from an old family album, a moment perfectly composed, touchingly lit almost by accident, and frozen in time. A moment that felt so long ago almost immediately.

And that's why no script, no movie, can touch the real thing.



--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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As constraining and hypocritical as the culture may have been in some ways, the postwar era saw the rise of the middleclass and the solidifying of the American Myth under the strengthened unions and the anti-trust laws which were still new and in effect. There was the aspiration for "something better" which was routine if not ubiquitous. That sleepy optimism of the '50s reached a peak by the end of the decade and seemed to set us up for the Kennedy era of the early-'60s.

And here was an unusually polished, photogenic couple in a White House whose policies seemed to becoming genuinely populist in focus, that couple displaying all the good taste and sophistication and "class" that the '50s had been striving for.


I agree with most of your points, which are very well put. I would never call the 50’s “sleepy”, since they were far from the tranquil era Hollywood likes to portray them as being and were not perceived as such at the time. Otherwise, though, I think you hit the nail on the head here. What modern people don’t always seem to realize is that constraint and hypocrisy are critical elements of the very things they admire about mid-century (and earlier) times. Our contemporary do-what-you-want, say-what-you-feel culture is utterly incompatible with “good taste, sophistication and ‘class’ “.

Yet all of that was juxtaposed with the brand new threat of The Bomb which really did create an incredible collective tension just underneath the surface. The period was the twilight zone. Sunshine and shadow. Was the world starting over, or was it about to end?


Yes, good point. There is a feeling of dancing on the edge of the precipice to some of the culture of the time that’s very appealing if you like that sort of thing. (I do.) It’s related to the perennial popularity of the Edwardian age and the late interwar period. In hindsight, we know that we pulled back from the precipice of nuclear war but fell off another, at time entirely unforeseen, precipice. The fact that there were some good things along with bad at the bottom of that drop doesn’t mean we don’t miss the things left behind at the edge.

Since you referred to The Twilight Zone indirectly, I’ll mention as a tangent that the show has an influence over our collective memory of the era far greater than its actual impact at the time. I think some of the popular perceptions of the early 60s, especially relating to doomsdays fears and attitudes toward women, are highly colored by Rod Serling’s individual interests, opinions, prejudices and fears. These were shared by many, but by no means all, people at the time. I’m a bit too young to remember the early 60s except in snatches, but I’m pretty sure most Americans just went along with their lives, not walking around under a cloud of fear any more than Californians’ lives are shadowed by constant fear of “the Big One”.

…new generations emerge who know or care little or nothing about the era and what it reflected.


And I would argue that they think they do know quite a lot about the era, much of it wrong - either directly and factually wrong or wrong by exaggeration and oversimplification. I call the latter the Mad Men syndrome.

It's kind of metaphor for life in a weird way, actual politics aside. A particular photograph you never quite forgot about from an old family album, a moment perfectly composed, touchingly lit almost by accident, and frozen in time. A moment that felt so long ago almost immediately.

Oh, very nicely put. Yes, it does feel like that.

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. I would never call the 50’s “sleepy”, since they were far from the tranquil era Hollywood likes to portray them as being and were not perceived as such at the time. Otherwise, though, I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Oh, but of course they weren't. But the aspirations (i.e., lies) about the '50s (e.g., "tranquil," "sleepy") or, for that matter, any era, say as much about where we were at the time as the truths of it.

Since you referred to The Twilight Zone indirectly, I’ll mention as a tangent that the show has an influence over our collective memory of the era far greater than its actual impact at the time. I think some of the popular perceptions of the early 60s, especially relating to doomsdays fears and attitudes toward women, are highly colored by Rod Serling’s individual interests, opinions, prejudices and fears.

Gee, Rod Serling wasn't responsible for all that. My Twilight Zone reference was just a random one.

The early-'60s indeed had a this-may-be-the-end-of-the-world angst about it which people were largely aware of (the Cuban Missile Crisis was just a symptom) even though they were going about their daily lives.

By the late-'60s, concerns over Vietnam, a largely traditional ground war, had supplanted the collective fear of The Bomb that impacted so much of the earlier part of that decade. And even thought The Bomb remains a threat even today, the public consciousness of it has never really returned -- not even during the saber-rattling/warhead buildup of Reagan/TheKremlin in the '80s.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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I don't understand what peoples fascination with JFK and Jackie O is.


Simple. They aren't boring.

BBL

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The Kennedys represent the most naturally cinematic of presidential couples, so of course the filmmaking interest continues. There are a couple of primary reasons, in my judgment:

1) Martyrdom. JFK was, in effect, the James Dean of presidents, a young, cool, and dynamic talent who died far too early having achieved flashes of brilliance with great promise now forever unfulfilled.

2) Looks and style. If ever a presidential couple could have passed for movie stars, it would have been the Kennedys. And they were savvy and stylish in way that most presidential couples are not. For instance, JFK was a fan of Ian Fleming's James Bond novels before Sean Connery brought the character to life on the screen—JFK's interest may have indirectly facilitated that emergence.

3) National mythology. America does not have a history of kings and queens, obviously, so we have required substitutes in terms of creating a national myth. By "myth," I do not necessarily mean the negative connotation of a lie, but the idea of an essential story that tells us who we are, who we want to be, and how we came to be. The Kennedys' youthful rise and suddenly violent end, the existential crises (Cold War confrontations and the Cuban Missile Crisis and civil rights) and martyrdom, feed into our national psyche of dreams and brutality. Indeed, the Kennedys embodied both the hope and the fragility of America—and to some extent humanity.

But Jackie is more complex than a matter of mere worship.

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Never, I hope. I'm planning to ask the pope to make them into saints.

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)

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