I was interested in Mary's comment to Tom - questioning whether she would still be happy/together with Matthew if he had lived. I was surprised by that but then I thought - she is in a different place now, more independent, running the estate, etc. Would she have grown so much as a person if she was just Matthew's wife?
Thoughts?
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
I've often thought about that. I've wondered what Mary's story arc was going to be if Matthew had lived/if Dan Stevens hadn't left the show. I remember back in season 1 when she had an emotional breakdown because Robert was effusing about all of Matthew's great ideas for the estate. Even though she loved him, I wonder if she wouldn't have had similar feelings of jealousy and left-outness if Matthew and Robert carried on running the estate effectively without her. I imagine she would have either become bitter and passive-aggressive, or flat-out insisted on playing an active role.
Either way, I enjoyed watching Mary grow as the co-runner and agent of Downton.
*Formerly Nothin_but_the_Rain*
I wonder if she wouldn't have had similar feelings of jealousy and left-outness if Matthew and Robert carried on running the estate effectively without her. I imagine she would have either become bitter and passive-aggressive, or flat-out insisted on playing an active role.
That's a good point. Mary is a strong-willed character and would not have been happy as 'only a housewife'.
They would have had to create this kind of drama between Matthew and Mary anyway to keep their relationship and the show interesting, just like the creator said about Matthew's untimely death. M&M were really happy when the producers found out Dan Stevens was leaving so to have them divorce suddenly wouldn't have made sense.
Matthew would have tired of Mary in short order, murdered her, and then be very relieved when Bates is arrested for it. After Bates is released because he can prove he was in London at the time, Anna is arrested. Synchronicity is a beautiful thing.
shareInteresting question. I think Matthew loved Mary for what he thought she could be rather than what she was. She was a total snob when she met Matthew, and thought too much about rank. Matthew saw that Mary was capable of more, and fell more for that than the actual woman. Mary fell for Matthew because she wanted to be more like what he saw in her. He saw someone who could contribute to the world, and not just be a member of the idle rich. He knew she was capable of change before she realized she could, or even wanted to, change. That's why she said, after he died, something about not knowing if she could be a good person without him.
I think if Matthew lived she would still be concerned about the estate for George's sake. She would still want to add her opinion, and Matthew, being somewhat more modern, would encourage her to participate. After all, he grew up with his mother working as a nurse with her Doctor father. Matthew knew how important having something meaningful to do with her life meant to his mother. I think Matthew would be happy for Mary to become part of running the estate.
I so think Mary would have become the same person with Matthew, and that they would still be happy.
I think that Mary will not be happy in the end with the man she picked as her second husband, Henry. They don't have anything in common, and I never detected any chemistry between them. Actually, Mary had more chemistry with Charles Blake in the pig sty than she did at any moment with Henry.
It was weird how people kept saying that Mary didn't like Henry because he was stronger than her, because the reality was that she came across as much stronger than him. Henry seemed to almost stalk Mary, and he displayed a major temper when she rejected him. I think it was extremely strange that Henry showed up with a marriage license when they weren't even a couple any more. He actually showed up with it when Tom invited him, and still had it when Mary asked him back. Henry was broke, and had no path to a title. Starting a car company with Tom was supposed to show Henry as working towards being rich, but it's unrealistic to think he would ever be a wealthy as Mary, or even wealthy at all.
I guess it was supposed to be a twist to have Mary wind up with Henry instead of a rich aristocrat. But Mary and Henry were a dull couple, and if they ever do a Downton Abbey film, I think they will not be happy.
Henry was broke, and had no path to a title. Starting a car company with Tom was supposed to show Henry as working towards being rich, but it's unrealistic to think he would ever be a wealthy as Mary, or even wealthy at all.A man who can buy Bentleys to race, or is a member of the RAC is hardly broke. He has his own income; not Robert's income, but until he married, Henry had little or no outlay that wasn't discretionary. Robert can't buy a car without not buying something else.
]A man who can buy Bentleys to race, or is a member of the RAC is hardly broke. He has his own income
Thanks for your thoughts. I was asking because I didn't watch DA much before 2014 - so was interested.
I can imagine Mary wouldn't be satisfied as just a wife and mother (not disrespectful to those who do that - I'm only talking about Mary). Especially when you taken into account Edith's story arc and her business. That would probably have led to resentment and conflict. I suppose, given that divorce would have been a scandal, that they would have made it work. They seemed quite a fiery couple - lots of arguments but lots of love too.
I guess a side question is would Mary have been able to take charge of the estate if Matthew had lived? If she did - what would Matthew do? I can't remember what his role was in running the estate - wasn't Tom the estate manager?
Interesting points on Blake - I liked him but would he have been prepared not to interfere with the estate? He was an expert in estate management and some lord as well wasn't he? That would probably have led to the same potential frustration in Mary. Henry had his own business away from the estate - so each of them had their own independent projects to pursue. Maybe he suited Mary better because of that? Anyway - the question was about Mary and her growth as a person/businesswoman.
Hey John - you are determined to get a Bates or two in prison as usual!!! Love the way your mind works!
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
I guess a side question is would Mary have been able to take charge of the estate if Matthew had lived? If she did - what would Matthew do? I can't remember what his role was in running the estate - wasn't Tom the estate manager?
Interesting points on Blake - I liked him but would he have been prepared not to interfere with the estate? He was an expert in estate management and some lord as well wasn't he? That would probably have led to the same potential frustration in Mary.
Henry had his own business away from the estate - so each of them had their own independent projects to pursue.
Mary would have been more happier with Matthew, no doubt about that, even Mary recognized that she still love him. About managing the estate, its a simply question, Matthew was going to be new earl, the roles betwen Earl and Countess were clear, Cora or Mary being countesses would have been in charge of everything "inside" of the house (watching and ordering the staff, seeing the menu for the week, etc) and "outside" of the house it was the job of the Earl, seeing the farming, meeting with tenants, etc.
Ovbiously, Mary had clear ideas about how she wanted to live, and a lot of times she crashed with Matthew, but in the end she was happy in that relation.
In the other hand, with Henry Talbot (a very decent man), she is happy enough, but Mary was very clear that one of her objetives in life was to be the next Countess of Grantham and reign over the place in the same way of Violet. Now, she has to be satisfied with managing the place until George would be the next earl.
I think that in this period Mary is in the honey moon period with Henry, a couple of years ahead she is going to realize how far is from Edith in terms of possition, money, etc; and in Mary´s mind she cannot be in a any position below Edith (she told that to Violet: when she asked if Violet could get a duke (above of marquess in rank) to marry her and "put Edith in her place"). So, i can see clearly that someday Edith comes to Downton or the family goes to Brancaster and Robert starts to praise how lavish is the place or something like that, or starts to boast that he is the father of the Marchioness of Hexham and Mary would start to fell resentment towards Henry because he cannot provide her the possition that she always wanted. That is the big difference betwen Matthew and Henry, at least, Matthew was going to be the next Earl of Grantham, and that have a lot of weight in Mary´s mind, only in the last period she somehow changed but enough in my mind.
Interesting thoughts as ever condorilloclqt. Wow - that Countess life sounds dull as ditchwater to me! Would Mary really have been happy with that? Cora certainly wasn't - hence the hospital gig. Maybe they could have shared duties - more of a partnership?
I wonder if Mary is really so bothered about her 'position' now? Yes you are right - she might not have changed - it could get to her over time but I suspect not. I think she will relish being the one in charge of the estate. Maybe I'm just optimistic or putting a modern woman's spin on the 1920's woman!
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
The rol of countess was more than directing the staff of the house, JF clearly stated that for dramatic reason they show us less servants that a real life house of that time would have, at least 30 people working there, from maids to footmen.
Also Cora as a countess should preside a lot of charities in the county, in fact, Cora as a countess was misrepresented, a woman like her would be all days working in charity comissions, meetings of all sort of things with the wifes of the local tenants, with the people of influence in the county, etc, Downton as a estate is like a little kingdom there.
In fact in the moment of Violet´s husband died she inmediatily would have moved and let Cora assume the rol of grand lady of the county. So, all the plot about the hospital was stupid.
Mary changed, but imo not enough, still she behaves like a little Violet, and even if she doesnt want the rol of an aristocratic lady, she was jelaous of Edith when she spoke about her magazine of her flat in London. In other words, she still behaves like a spoiled brat, and that is the fault of Cora, Robert, Carson and all the people who never called for that and never let her mature.
Thanks for info - still sounds dull to me! I get what you mean about her lack of maturity - she's actually led a really limited life is some ways.
I wonder why Mary didn't say yes to Matthew's proposal earlier - if she really only wanted to be the Lord's/Earl's wife?
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
Because as a character, Mary is a woman who likes to play with men, even Matthew warned her about that because already played with him (when she flirted with Strallan only to humilliate Edith) and he simply walked away. Then when he proposed to her, Cora anounced that she was pregnant and Rosamound reminded her that she was a woman who coulndt be satisfied being just a solicitor wife, Violet say to her that she must accept Matthew for the moment and if the baby was a boy then dump him.
And about playing with men, Robert said that about Mary in the same night when she flirted with Matthew and Strallan, about (she) being like a child with a toy. Then Blake also warned Gillingham about how she likes to have all the men in a trail.
Then, on several ocassions, she said that she was going to be the countess of Grantham (i think when they faced money problems, and for that reason she must stay in Downton); then after Matthew´s death, Anna was very clear when she was talking with her husband that the fact that she wouldnt be the next countess of Grantham had a big impact on Mary. Then when Gillingham turn up, again Anna said that Mary will be happy by being Viscountess Gillingham. Then she drastically changed her mind when Charles Blake told her that he was in line to a tittle in Ireland. Also she was going to marry Patrick Crawley because he was the heir, even if she didnt love him, then she showed some interest in Napier, even if she find him boring.
So I think what you are saying is that Mary's love of playing with men outweighs her need to be Lady Grantham? This is what I have missed I think because I came late to watching DA. I only watched the odd episode before 2014.
I'd completely missed Cora's pregnancy - yes that would have changed everything if she hadn't lost the baby.
Didn't Mary dump Gillingham after Blake was off the scene - not so keen on that title after Liverpool!!!
In the end she didn't go for a titled man - that says a lot about how she feels about HT maybe. Well - for the moment anyway. But you are right - she might come to resent her decision. I guess we will find out in the movie.
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
I've just started season four. Still can't get over that someone dies each time a baby is born @@
shareIf Dan Stevens had stayed with the series, Fellowes’s scripts, and plans for the couple, would have slowed down considerably. S3 chugged along pretty quickly because he had to get Matthew and Mary married and produce an heir before Stevens’s departure. If Stevens had planned to stay with the show, Fellowes would have had the luxury of more time to develop their story.
Mary and Matthew would have had more ups and downs before during and after their nuptials.