Granted he is no Mathew, but I really like Henry. Much better than Tony who was a bore and Mary didn't truly love him. They have a chemistry that can not be denied. Their story didn't have as much time to develop as Mary/Mathew but I think they are a good fit. Why the Henry hate?
sharePerhaps it was bad writing. Both actors are good so why a lot of people found them uninteresting must be because of that. Perhaps Fellowes got bored.
shareI think the fact that their relationship could not play out fully is another reason they were "uninteresting". It wasn't really fleshed out as well as it could have been. It's understandable where the writers were coming from, as they seemed to trying to make Mary unlike who she was at the beginning of the series, however, it seemed rushed and unnatural, thus her relationship with Henry seems unnatural.
shareI think the fact that their relationship could not play out fully is another reason they were "uninteresting". It wasn't really fleshed out as well as it could have been.
IMO the reasons why some viewers had problems with Mary/Henry but not Bertie/Edith is because fellowes wanted to draw it out as long as possible. He likes to do that, especially with mary.
In Edith's case, the road block to her happiness was that she was keeping a big secret, which Fellowes used as his vehicle to draw out the conclusion of their romance as long as possible. So Fellowes created multiple scenes of their OBVIOUS blossoming love to heighten the drama of "will she tell him or not?"
But in Mary's case, SHE was the road block. She fought against her feelings for 7 eps. The ham-fisted clues were all there that she would eventually overcome her reasons and allow herself to act on her feelings for him. But some Mary fans (esp. Mary apologists) were too angry about the lack of lovey-dovey in the romance (and his lack of title) to accept the story line, and chose instead to suggest all sorts of malevolence.
In JF's Downton, Mary always has to be struggling against herself in some way and eventually overcoming her objections, just as she did with Matthew and just about every other important story line in her narrative since the first ep of the first series.
I did not care who Mary ended up with, so Henry was as good as any other of her boring suitors. I have to say though that in his case, it was only a plus that he didn't have a title or an estate of his own. He had no expectations to produce an heir or keep a legacy running, so he was free to stand by Mary's side at Downton Abbey.
Intelligence and purity.
That was also Bertie's first appearance as well, and no one has complained that the relationship between him and Edith seems rushed or false.
Just wondered how you reached that conclusion about the money kryptogal? If there was a 'scratching head' emoticon I'd use it!
The evidence on screen doesn't seem to support that view - Henry was very determined to set up the business without Downton cash. That doesn't really fit with your opinion. Were there other clues that I missed?
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
His Aunt said that he had no money and wasn't in line for a title. Henry lives like a wealthy person, but depends on friends to finance his business interests. Henry's money came from a salary his friend Charlie paid him as his racing sponsor. Once Charlie died, Henry was out of a sponsor.
Tom had talked about opening his own car repair garage in past episodes. He had the money, and was thinking about maybe putting it on DA land close to the town. By the time Tom got around to buying a garage, he was friends with Henry and included him in the business. It doesn't appear that Henry had any money invested, but rather seems like he's a partner because he's going to be running the place. Tom obviously can't because he already has a job.
The first time Henry kissed Mary, he talked about marriage, and how he had poor prospects but she was a catch. He was clearly talking about money, and was thinking about marriage from the start.
Wow - I didn't see/hear any of that on screen apart from the last bit. I thought I paid attention but never heard anything about Charlie being his sponsor. Charlie and Henry were team mates/friends but that was all I think. I didn't hear anything about Tom financing the business either - are you sure that was on screen or is that your speculation? When he and Tom were discussing it that wasn't mentioned at all. Would be great if you could point out the scenes when you heard all this for me so I can re-watch. Thanks!
Henry would have made prize money from racing, sponsorship and had family money - he was poor by Mary's standards but not by our standards. I suspect Lady S's version of 'adequate' is actually quite rich!
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
I was watching the Downton Abbey marathon this weekend, and it was glorious and sad at the same time. It's really over.
Anyhow, in one episode Tom and Mary were looking over the land talking about building housing on the estate, and Tom talks about his plans to build a garage and have his own business on the side. He says that he wants it near the village.
In the series finale, Henry says that he has no money and is being supported by his wealthy wife. Tom tells Henry that he had an idea for a business, and that when it comes about he wants Henry to join him.
Oh poor you. I feel your pain!
Those scenes still don't really support the ideas that you put forward. I think the 'garage' was actually a repair shop that Tom suggested for the estate. No mention of Charlie being Henry's sponsor. No mention of Tom financing the business. You are like me - an active imagination!
I think when Henry says "That's not what I want for you." in the finale - that tells us the truth of the situation. He wants to make his own money and not rely on hers and he takes action on that wish, not using Downton money. I think that shows us what type of man he is - most definitely not a gold-digger. Unless it is a VERY elaborate double bluff - but I don't think JF is that devious!
I hope you find something to fill the DA void soon. Poldark is helping me get over it! Not much substance - lots of wistful looking out to sea and Aidan Turner with his shirt off. I have simple needs!
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
I think when Henry says "That's not what I want for you." in the finale - that tells us the truth of the situation. He wants to make his own money and not rely on hers and he takes action on that wish, not using Downton money. I think that shows us what type of man he is - most definitely not a gold-digger. Unless it is a VERY elaborate double bluff - but I don't think JF is that devious!My impression too. The dealership is a partnership between Tom and Henry. With Mary as nearly full time agent, Tom will have plenty of time to work in it. Henry's sadness was not much different from those demobbed officers who came home to no jobs or occupation after leading men in battle. He's let down after he's given auto-racing and hadn't found something to do in Yorkshire; now he has an occupation doing something he knows well. He's probably providing most of the (modest) funds for the startup.
Not just me then.
I hope Talbot and Branson figures in the movie - maybe rivaling Rolls Royce. Is that too much to ask for?!
Interesting about JF's view of 'business' - yet he made Carlyle such an unsympathetic character. He seems to write the 'new money' characters with the same 'aristocratic disdain'. Still - JF never majored in consistency!
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
In those times the landed gentry (the Crawleys) saw with suspicious eyes men that they were bussisman (Carlisle) or were professionals (Matthew as a solicitor and his father a doctor), the ocupattion of men of their class were managing land or being officer in the army, and also politics; but never in a way of making money of that, public service through politics was their public duty.
For that reason, public schools like Eton and such, inculcated values like camaraderie through team sports (rugby, cricket, etc) and loyalty (to king and country, to your school and to your particular house) and a strong sense of hierarchy betwen them, from the boy in 1th year taking orders from the elders, from prefects, from house captain, from the teachers, etc. So, those men, never were "trained" to be fully independent (something escential in the business world), they always must fit into something and know their place; for example in season 2 Robert is invited to a dinner with fellow officers of some regiment and he seem to be genuily happy and then says, "this is were i truly belong..."
I like Tom Branson and Henry Talbot, but i seriously doubt, that they could rival Rolls Royce, in that time, the 20´s, practically the car industry is like today(5 or 6 big branches). The novelty of building cars was long gone, the innovation came only by changing the way of production (like Henry Ford), but Rolls Royce, Ford, General Motors, Bentley, were household names in 1925-26. Long gone were the years (1910´s) were basically the first manufacteres were men who made a machine in their garages, similar to the software business today, in that period we are talking about big factories with thousands of workers. The fact that Tom and Henry had a garage is not bad business, if you are clever you can start a franchise of repairing cars, selling them, accesories for them, etc; maybe is not so glamorous or exciting but it makes money if its well managed.
Interesting about JF's view of 'business' - yet he made Carlyle such an unsympathetic character. He seems to write the 'new money' characters with the same 'aristocratic disdain'.He said that in his screenplay notes; Carlyle, in his own realm, is a master, but in the Crawleys' world he's a novice.
The other "new money" was Lord Sinderby, i think that after the ww1, England was so broke that they basically "sold" titles, so people like Carlisle or Sinderby became peers. In one episode, Robert said that they basically bought some house (a big one) in the village but the local people didnt want them and for that reason they were luring the county (with the horse race), and also their butler said that their title wasnt 10 minutes old. Anyways, notice how rude was Lord Sinderby, as a nouveau riche he already was renting the shoot in Brancaster, but even having the money, he didnt have Robert "aristocratic charm" (the way that he conducted himself when they served the wrong food and yelled to his butler and footmen there).
The Duke i dont think that was "new money", he was simply poor as one man who tried to marry Rosamound for her money. The Grey i think that they were old money too, the house wheere Lord Merton lived seemed to be in the family for generations and he was well known by the Crawleys (he was Mary´s godfather, i highly doubt that Robert would gave that posittion to a newcomer)
The Duke i dont think that was "new money", he was simply poor as one man who tried to marry Rosamound for her money. The Grey i think that they were old money too, the house wheere Lord Merton lived seemed to be in the family for generations and he was well known by the Crawleys (he was Mary´s godfather, i highly doubt that Robert would gave that posittion to a newcomer)Sorry, I tried to say that they were the old money aristocrats, and that they were as obnoxious as the new money ones.
Perhaps because the suitors saga finally tired the people in general, and more over if the whole thing consisted in the character of Mary only flirting like a teenager with the men and not having any adult conversation with any of them, i mean, playing games and stuff it would have been ok in season when she had 20 yrs.
The flirting with Talbot in Brancaster was ok for the first encounter but then people expected a mature relation, the character of Mary is a woman in her 30s with a child.
Perhaps because the suitors saga finally tired the people in general, and more over if the whole thing consisted in the character of Mary only flirting like a teenager with the men and not having any adult conversation with any of them, i mean, playing games and stuff it would have been ok in season when she had 20 yrs.
I truly think that Edith and Bertie were believable because their relationship was given a chance to develop and we the audience witnessed its growth, ergo it was more accepting by us. Plus the fact by season 6, everyone wanted Edith to have somebody/ anybody rather than being alone! You are right, tomcervo, in that those characters telling each other about themselves made it likeable and believeabale. Such was not the case for Mary and Henry! It was as if JF knew the curtain was starting its fall and hurried up and paired M and H together because to leave Mary dangling without closure would have bothered just about everyone, mostly himself. I never really disliked Henry, he was certainly an affable guy, but the buildup wasn't there and in the end their marriage seemed more of a convenience than a love match. And maybe at this time in their lives, that was what they wanted.
"Sympathy doesn't butter the parsnips." - Mrs. Patmore
The issue with Henry as a good husband candidate for Mary is that the creator/writer of Downton Abbey failed to develop a heartfelt connection between the two. Henry and Mary never established a romantic and soulmate-like rapport, unlike that of Matthew and Mary. So one must conclude that while Mary probably did come to love Henry, she did not do so with the same conviction of love as she did with Matthew: thus I was left with a sorrowful feeling that she did not attain the ultimate connection of love with Henry, and is the one character that was left unsettled of all the Downton Abbey character at the shows conclusion...how sad that she did not find closure in true love.
shareand is the one character that was left unsettled of all the Downton Abbey character at the shows conclusion
To me it was apparent that Tom and Edith's editor were forming a relationship in the final episode. Edith's editor is outgoing and a strong-willed woman--a perfect match for Tom.
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To me it was apparent that Tom and Edith's editor were forming a relationship in the final episode. Edith's editor is outgoing and a strong-willed woman--a perfect match for Tom.
I felt The insinuation was that Tom and the woman Edith worked with were "destined" to pair up. Even if they didn't, Tom seems just as content unmarried. He his also branching into his own business doing something he loves. I always loved the way his character develops through the series. To me, he has the most growth as a character. I was satisfied that Tom would be fine when the series ended. He knew what he wanted and who he was.
His character spent a great deal of time finding out about himself. He was never afraid of that and the show made it a point to focus on the struggles he had finding a balance between his old life and his new. He goes from a young "kid" who is unforgiving in his beliefs, but irresponsible with them, to an adult that question those beliefs. The transformation from child like attitutes when he is first introduced, to maturity is believable. The complexity of his character is amazing.
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Even if they didn't, Tom seems just as content unmarried. He his also branching into his own business doing something he loves. I always loved the way his character develops through the series. To me, he has the most growth as a character. I was satisfied that Tom would be fine when the series ended. He knew what he wanted and who he was.
First of all, I don't think that anyone could compare to the Mary/Matthew love story and after Matthew it was hard for the audience to accept anyone. However, I loved the Henry character and I thought they had good chemistry and Mary seemed truly happy in the end. One of the things that made it hard to swallow (for some at least) was how quickly everything moved. I wish that they would have taken the fifth season to draw out the relationship instead of focusing on Tony Gillingham (whom I did not like with Mary and found the story unmoving). I think that Henry was the next best thing to Matthew, don't know who else they could have cast to do any better- it's just that the audience didn't have enough time to get to know him.
shareEvery time I think about it, I hate it even more.
-lack of chemistry
-lack of build up
-SOO many other, better suitors (I mean hell, I don't like either Napier or Tom for her, but I may have preferred them to Henry because at least the set up was there)
-my choice by FAR will always be Charles Blake. They understood each other, they were well matched, he challenged her, he was of her status/wealth, they had sparks.
-it's like she was pushed into marrying him because of the dowager and Tom's persuasion
-what do they have in common???
What the hell do we know about him? Other than cars, cars, racing, cars.
-they wrote the relationship as if it wasn't meant to last and then, they give them a speedy wedding out of nowhere
-it's not about Matthew so much as how he doesn't even hold up to Matthew's shadow
-Matthew Goode seemed bored out of his mind in EVERY scene
A rose is just a rose.
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They have a chemistry that can not be denied
I also agree that Henry & Mary had no chemistry, especially compared to Mary & Matthew. I would much rather have seen her with Charles Blake who seemed to be a better match. I loved the scene with the two of them and the pigs. I don't think I've ever seen Mary laugh so hard as when they were flinging mud at each other.
I also feel that JF pushed the Henry/Mary pairing because it was decided that Season 6 would be the last and he wanted to end everything all nice like a fairy tale. Just wish he would have ended it with someone other than Henry.
"Vulgarity is no substitute for wit".
JF pushed the Mary/Henry pairing because he thought it would should that Mary totally changed from the spoiled, money and title obsessed girl at the start of the show. He wanted the twist to be that Mary ended up with a poor guy with no title, and Edith ended up with the rich and powerful man. At least Edith and Bertie had chemistry and their relationship felt believable.
share^^^ That's it! ^^^ I felt the very last episode was of a completely different show. Mary's personality did a 180. While I like happy endings the season finale was a bit over the top and not indicative of Mary at all.
"Vulgarity is no substitute for wit".
At least Edith and Bertie had chemistry and their relationship felt believable.In the I Miss special, Laura said that her and Harry giggling like kids at each other at the wedding wasn't in the script. It just happened naturally and the director left it in. share
As much as I like Henry and thought him right for Mary it has never sat well with me that Mary fell for him. It seemed like such a betrayal of the core of her character who would never had ALLOWED herself to fall with someone without either position or title. She would never had looked twice at Matthew if he had not been the heir.
I hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with this, we all have standards that we would not betray, these just happen to be Mary's. Just as Sybil would never have gone for someone without a sense of social justice.
To you, Baldrick, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?
I think the key phrase of hers is "I won't marry down." If she wanted a title, she had her choice of three men, two of them quite well off and one less so but stable. But she doesn't need those things. I credit her with demanding her equal or better in mind and spirit. Talbot is so much that, perhaps more, that he challenges her--more than she's comfortable with.
I also think that Mary happy about being married with a second hand car salesman is too much; i can easily buy Mary married to a young ambitious professional man and she helping him, for example Henry Talbot as a young politician starting his career or something like that. For those reasons, i never bought that she would end like someone like Tom, she loved him, trusted him and she respected his opinions, but for me it was imposible that Lady Mary Crawley would end with some irish socialist, i easily could have thought that Edith would have been married by someone "low" because she was the sister who was desesperate for someone who could love her.
Besides in the series it never show us that Talbot did something remarkable, the thing about racing cars was a exciting thing, but they didnt show us that he was a war heroe, or him having a "real" profession (lawyer, medic, engineer, etc), politician, business man, etc; nothing.
With that, i am not saying that i dislike the character, i say that its weird that someone like Mary ended with someone like him. Having said that, i think that all this was made with the purspose that Mary finally "matured" and she is no longer the spoiled brat of season 1, but the change was too drastic. And to be honest, i totally understand why she behaved in that way in season 1, "marry well" was her job and she had to compete to achieve that, and like she said, she was living practically in a golden cage.
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