MovieChat Forums > The Walking Dead (2010) Discussion > Would anyone have moral of philosophical...

Would anyone have moral of philosophical discussions ...

posted 7 years ago by brux (14729)
19 replies | jump to latest

... in the middle of a war, or battle? OK, it's a TV show and
they need to let us know what is on the character's minds,
but it just seemed silly. If there is someone say Morgan
"needs" to kill, I think it is his call. The Neganites and Negan
need to be exterminated, and that should have been made
clear to everyone in their "mission statement".

I have to confess, I am sure it would haunt me for the rest
of my life to execute anyone, but in that case it is the right
thing to do. You are literally risking your life every second
of every day when you permit the murdering scum that lived
the Negan life into your society.

Jesus is an idiot. Of course, Morgan is none to bright either,
but he was smart enough to know he is not right. However,
what are you going to think when this prisoner smart mouth
is trying to unnerve you all the march back? I'd have shot the
guy too, and maybe the lot of them.

There is just too much at stake.

However, what Daryl did, twice, was creepy. He killed the guy
holding Rick at gunpoint, and then he killed the kid after Rick
had given him his word. In Daryl's defense though, it was a fair
call either way in both of those situations, and he saved Rick from
having to make the call.

In a life or death situation you have to be strategic and intelligent.
Not much of that happens on this show though ... like a few seasons
back that meeting in the barn with the Governor.

I really do not know why I am watching the show except out of
habit and curiosity.

[–] Hans-Wilhelm (1359) 7 years ago

What was wrong with what Daryl did? Why would he not shoot a guy with a gun on Rick?

Daryl didn't give that other guy his word. I knew he was going to kill him, I said to my wife, Daryl didn't give him his word, he's going to kill him.

[–] brux (14729) 7 years ago

That is just the way the show does that to manufacture fake controversy and tension.
There is so much fake diversion in this TWD it is hard for me to even watch now.

[–] McQualude (4231) 7 years ago

Hey, this fiction is fake!

[–] ShogunofYonkers (77566) 7 years ago

God i hate when fiction is made up:@

[–] McQualude (4231) 7 years ago

This fiction is so fabricated it's unreal!

[–] ShogunofYonkers (77566) 7 years ago

I want this motherf'ing fakeness outta my motherf'ing fiction

[–] necramonium (224) 7 years ago

"Never leave a enemy behind, or it will rise again to fly at your throat." - Shaka Zulu

[–] winslow (1318) 7 years ago

It's hard to tell because some of these scenes are not happening chronologically, but I'm pretty sure Rick tells his people at the beginning of the war that once they made the initial offer to surrender and give Negan up, any Savior is fair game. And he knew they weren't going to just up and surrender. It's the reason he got so many people to join- so they can exterminate this group for what they've done. When Jesus tries to stop them, he is going against the original plan and that's why they start arguing about it.

It is very burdensome and dangerous to take prisoners, so why do it? The Saviors have been told that Rick is psycho, he and his people will kill them all or do even worse things to them if he's not stopped. If they give up, they believe they will be going from a bad situation to a worse one, or at least the same one. What Jesus is trying to do is show them they're not the same and by doing so, offer them their humanity back. Pretty much exactly what he said to Morgan. There are some clues already that this is where the show is going with it. Ezekiel's group is doing things that other way and it's not working out so well for them. There will be some situation where Rick realizes he can't win the war, and then a bunch of Saviors defect because they realize the people they are fighting against are not the same. And Rick is slowly changing his attitude towards them as well.

Daryl saw first hand how the Saviors operate, and he believes they are too far gone. He saw that cell and dog food sandwiches in the previous episode and it reinforced his belief. I'm guessing near the end, something will happen to change his mind as well.

[–] brux (14729) 7 years ago

If it was me, to me, the Saviors are a terrorist organization, like the Governor. Some people may buy into the "brutality is needed to keep order" thing, but that has been used throughout human history and it is wrong. I would say unless people know a Savior that they would personally vouch for ... shoot them all, but most imporantly the ringleaders. This is not a nation v. nation war where nations have the power and resources to hold prisoners ... this is like being in a lifeboat with a murderer ... if you go to sleep he will kill you if he gets the chance.

Then there is the how much time does one have to adjudicate every issue in the heat of battle. Jesus was wrong ... especially about the Saviors that ran off into the forest. Also ... they were all tied together so it would not have taken them long to catch them.

[–] McQualude (4231) 7 years ago

Rick convinced himself that he was the good guy. edit: Morales showed him the truth and Rick is now struggling to come to terms that he is no better than any of the Saviors.

edit; name correction.

[–] brux (14729) 7 years ago

Your smart-ass remark above .... "Hey, this fiction is fake!" kind
of bugged me, as you make this comment it seems silly. Rick has
too much to deal with and process. In reality, after all that Rich
has been though, or anyone in his situation, all the death, violence,
and constant threat, he is lucky to be sane at all. However, for him
to plan a revolution he would need to steel himself that there was an
actual point to the overthrow of Negan.

So then, to worry about all of this because of one conversation just
does not strike me as being plausible ... so yes, in a sense, this fiction
is fake. First, Rick would have not the time to ponder about what
Miguel was saying because he had a gun turned on him and he was in
the middle of a revolutionary war.

So, I just would say I disagree with your conclusion. Rick is nothing
like Negan, and better or worse, he and his have to survive. But, it is
just a TV show after all.

[–] McQualude (4231) 7 years ago

Not like Negan, like the Saviors, like Morales, doing whatever he has to do to survive. Morales literally said it in the episode. The name of the episode is Monsters. To the Saviors (rank and file), Rick is a monster. Right before Morales walked in, Rick killed a Savior who was only trying to protect his baby. Rick realized during that conversation that Morales was right and they are only different in the opportunities and choices that were available to them. Had Rick been a loner and Negan scooped him up, Rick would have been a Savior. Morgan and Jesus are going through the same thing... evaluating the cost of survival... at what point are they no different than the real monsters (zombies) that take life indiscriminately. Jesus made his choice and knows exactly how far he will go. Morgan believes they should kill all the Saviors and it causes him pain but he remembers the lesson of his wife.

As for fake, I think the word you wanted is "contrived." When used with fiction it means that situations don't feel naturally developed. An example would be someone who unnecessarily withholds information and it causes a lot of drama which is only resolved when the information is revealed at the end of the episode. That would be contrived. None of this is contrived. This all started because Rick made a deal with Hilltop to eliminate what he thought was a small local gang. Negan responded and the situation escalated to war. This is what happens in a vacuum of power, local warlords form militias and eventually battle it out. It's happening in parts of the world today and has been happening since social groups were formed.

[–] brux (14729) 7 years ago

They are all already surviving, no? They have a way to keep
themselves sustained and even growing, but under a tyranny
of terror and violence.

Did you ever see Rick behave to anyone as Negan's agent did,
I forget his name, when he would come in an bully and humiliate
Gregory? I never did.

There is a world of difference there.

Here you are just reiterating what you already said and what I already
rebutted.

How you are different is in how you relate to other people. it doesn't
matter what you do if you are alone in the wilderness.

Morgan's tragedy was not about people ... it was against the zombies.
I think he is right. Jesus is a nut, and this ridiculous thread of Jesus
being wrong is going to take up probably the whole season as they
all learn again why you have to have a marshall law mentality in a
situtation like this.

Contrived, yes, that is a better word, but still says the same thing. As
I just said the whole season, to make sure there is nothing really
useful as morality or literature, is going to end up to be a waste of time
re-learning what they already should have learned from the Governor
and at Terminus.

But so I understand you point, what do you think should have happened
if you believe Rick and Negan are the same? Rick should just work
really hard under Negan and hope promotion and to avoid being killed?

[–] McQualude (4231) 7 years ago

Why do you keep bringing up Negan? The episode was not comparing anyone to Negan (the individual) but was comparing The Saviors to Rick and his people and saying they are the same.

Another point you may have missed is they are showing that Rick has not let go of the former (pre-zombie) world. Deep down it's still part of him (Morales called him Officer Friendly) and it may become a liability, or an asset, depending on how he manages it. Morgan gets it because he learned the lesson by not killing his wife which led to the death of his son; and again when he left the Wolves alive that later came back and killed many people. And he 'knows' that leaving the Saviors alive will result in more deaths down the road. Jesus also has a point, they can't continue killing forever there has to be a goal, an end game. Any of them could be right or wrong because it's fiction and the outcome will be decided by writers who manipulate events to achieve a certain outcome. Basically it's all fake, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the ride.

[–] plainstyle (172) 7 years ago

Actually, yes I expect they would. They are not soldiers (nor are they able to read each others' minds). They have not been trained and disciplined to ignore their own feelings and/or trust in a chain of command. So yeah there are going to be disagreements. I don't know how I feel about the writers' handling of those disagreements (mainly Jesus needs to explain why he's not okay with killing the defenceless this season even though he was okay with it two seasons ago), but the basic concept of a free-thinking society of equals (again, no chain of command) means lots and lots of disagreements are bound to ensue.

[–] brux (14729) 7 years ago

Yeah, the outlooks and morality of people changes I guess with experience,
and can change back. That is why I think one has to work all that out before
whatever action is taken to the best of their ability. If Jesus is not OK with
killing certain prisoners in certain situations, and it is decided it is necessary,
then he should not go along on that piece of the mission. On the other hand,
Morgan, who was going to kill those guys, even recognized himself that once
he got into a killing mindset it was hard to turn it off, and probably would be
just as hard to reconcile himself to after the end of the hostilities, if they
win.

[–] McQualude (4231) 7 years ago

Good point. People who have never been soldiers, especially infantry, have no idea of the preparation that goes into forming a fighting unit. Basic training is primarily about mental preparation (brainwashing) and weeding out those who will quit prematurely or are unable to follow orders.

[–] Manowar2010 (77) 7 years ago

However, what Daryl did, twice, was creepy. He killed the guy
holding Rick at gunpoint, and then he killed the kid after Rick
had given him his word. In Daryl's defense though, it was a fair
call either way in both of those situations, and he saved Rick from
having to make the call.

I have no problems with what Daryl did to Morales. He was holding Rick at gunpoint, and every second they waited there would give the Saviors Morales had called more time to arrive and find them.

As for the guy he killed after Rick gave him his word that he wouldn't be killed, I don't think I would have done that, but there weren't really any good options. If he lets him go, the Savior could find Negan and let him know that Rick is going to try and seize the Brownings (which Negan probably already knows, but Rick wouldn't know that). They don't exactly have a police car to take him in either. If they injured him to slow him down and then left him, he'd probably die anyway.

It's currently not feasible for Rick's group to be taking prisoners. Or the Hilltop either (taking the number of prisoners they took was stupid in my opinion). The Kingdom and the Sanctuary might be the only places that has the number of guards and facilities to house that number of prisoners feasibly.

Another thing to keep in mind, if you take prisoners, you've usually got to provide them food, medicine, etc., which is already hard to get for your own group during a zombie apocalypse.

[–] McQualude (4231) 7 years ago

Prisoners are a resource drain. It's a bunch of unproductive mouths to feed. You can put them to forced labor but then you need housing facilities, 24 hour guards, basically it's the beginning of industry. It's unlikely Hilltop can get more out of the prisoners than they put in as long as Negan is still an alternative. And the lieutenants are unlikely to ever adapt and will always be a threat. On the other hand, People are a resource and I would probably consider killing most of the men and keeping the women.