MovieChat Forums > Sherlock (2010) Discussion > When did this start to become so self in...

When did this start to become so self indulgent?

posted 8 years ago by coolslowhand
16 replies | jump to latest

The first 2 years of this were mindblowingly good. But I felt the 3rd season felt very different other than the last episode, and much more self-indulgent

For one thing, the first episode of season 3 itself teased us with how Sherlock faked his death and had fans actually giving theories of jt before actually revealing it. It was kind of fun, but felt a little out of place. Then there was the wedding and the speech where the episode went all over the map in terms of timeline and plot.

I still like the series very much, but I hope the tone changes a little going forward to capture the parts of S2 and S1 that were so Well done

Anyone else finds parts of it too self indulgent?

[–] Rex16 8 years ago

I agree that Series 3 has become self-indulgent. It's trying to be postmodern by breaking the fourth wall too often. A rare nod to the audience is fine, but if fan fiction becomes an integral part of the storytelling, like it did in TEH, TSOT and now TAB, the storytelling loses its integrity.

[–] bakerstreetdozen 8 years ago

I wouldn't say it's self-indulgent. Rather, I think it's self-aware and self-effacing. Those are good things, in my opinion. The show itself is also evolving to keep up with the relationship development between the characters. It's not the same show as it was when it first started out, no, but I wouldn't want it to be.

--
Why don't you take a pill, bake a cake, go read the encyclopaedia.

[–] Jake1976 8 years ago

Can't wait for it either. Is it confirmed that season 4 is last.

[–] HannahLee_3 8 years ago

No...though it may take a while before they can schedule filming of S5.

Have a lovely day - John Finnemore

[–] tangochan85 8 years ago

For me, it soured in series three because there was no solved within the series (or even an episode itself) mystery. Also, the second episode in which we had flasbacks that really should have been told as not!flasbacks was excruciating to watch.

"The Abominable Bride" was also kind of lakluster up until the end. Around the time fat!Mycroft showed up for the final time, it felt like the writing voice shifted and what was kind of stilted and boring to watch because more engaging (unfortunately it was about te last third-ish) of the special.

All the things that have drawn me to all things Holmes like mystery and a kind of play at home until it's all revealed at the end atmophere have been put to the wayside. Not to mention I wasn't a fan of what they've been doing with Mary. I think they thought fandom wouldn't like her so they try to hard to make us not like her and make her a villain and it's just so disappointing. I mean the Ritchie movies are like someone who heard about Sherlock Holmes froma drunk friend in a pub decided to make two movies abou it and they managed to come up with the better Mary, which still surrises me.

I'm not going to be watching series 4. It doesn't look like an improvement in quality from series three. Some scenes in the trailer were just kind of off putting in flavor for me. It's a shame. Pre-series three I'd never guess I'd feel this way.

---
When someone close to you dies, move seats. - Jimmy Carr

[–] Rex16 8 years ago

I'm not going to be watching series 4. It doesn't look like an improvement in quality from series three. Some scenes in the trailer were just kind of off putting in flavor for me. It's a shame. Pre-series three I'd never guess I'd feel this way.

Just out of curiosity, which scenes from the trailer are you talking about? I thought the trailer looked quite exciting, as it seemed to cut back on the post-modern stuff and actually focus on story-telling.

That said, I have a feeling that Series 4 will be the last for a while, and really hope that they will bring some closure to the plot instead of ending on a cliffhanger. I hope the ending isn't too sad, despite Moffat and Gatiss's foreshadowing that the series is going to be "the darkest yet".

[–] craigus_d 8 years ago

I think you hit very well what was not quite right for me with series 3 too. It became a little bit more drama and a little less mystery. I'm not saying they're not both important elements in any adaptation, but the finely weighted balance went a little too far the other way for me. I suppose another way of putting it would be that what attracts me to Sherlock is that it's a program about cold-logic and brains, yet series 3 was a bit too much about heart. I want Sherlock's feelings for his friends to be very subtly hinted - not delved into in great detail and picked apart. When you have a character who has the Spock-like ability to keep his feelings hidden I don't know why you would want to undo that by explicitly exploring his feelings and have him gushing about his love for other characters. For me there was a bit too much of that in series 3, the wedding speech and his interaction with Molly, it seemed like fan-service. And the series 4 trailer suggests there's a whole load more on the way.

In my opinion Sherlock is a character who just when he needs to show some emotion, and you're desperate for him to say the right thing or blurt out that he loves another character, he doesn't, and ruins the moment but with an unspoken regret behind his eyes that suggests he wanted to say more. That emotional resolution that you want shouldn't come, not in the way you want it to. It's incredibly frustrating as a viewer, yes, but it leaves you wanting more and builds suspense. So that if in some massive emotional moment in the final episode he finally says the things the audience wants to hear it means so much more - that shouldn't be happening in episode 8. Those emotional resolutions have already come, he's told John and Molly what they mean to him, he's said to John that he loves him, which makes that aspect of the show redundant. And short of having Sherlock crying at John's bedside or whatever they have in store for the next series I'm not sure where there is to go with that; it's opened a box that can't be closed. I wouldn't say that side of Sherlock should never be shown, but I would have saved it for the very final episode. I'm not saying anyone who disagrees and really loved series 3 is wrong. We all love different things about the show and character and that's just my opinion.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent but yes I agree that series 3 lacked some of the mystery of series 1 and 2. The plots should focus foremost around a case and not their personal lives. The latter should be an element but not the driving element.

[–] KindredSouls2 8 years ago

It was self indulgent from day one, but series one was so different and fresh, I did not mind. I hope series four us better than two and three.

[–] KindredSouls2 8 years ago

Also have to agree that this show hasn't been like a true Sherlock Holmes since series one because it isn't about the mysteries anymore. Say what you will about Elementary, it IS(and has been since the start and remains so now) a true representation of how Holmes might be in modern day. I remember Moffat grumbling about how Elementary was going to ruin "the brand". I say he needs to take a look in the mirror.

[–] nihilist_alter-ego 8 years ago

I remember Moffat grumbling about how Elementary was going to ruin "the brand".

Did he? What an odd thing to say considering "the brand" was around for 100 years before he was born and he has no more claim to it than anyone coming before or after him.

When there's no more room on the internet, the dumb will walk the earth.

[–] craigus_d 8 years ago

He did, saying:

I don't want it to sound like Mark [Gatiss] and I don't want other people to try this. We welcome it, but don't damage the brand

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-05-17/steven-moffat---elementary-has-changed-sherlock-holmes-too-much
Plus other comments:

What we did with our Sherlock was just take it from Victorian times into modern day. [Elementary has] got three big changes: it's Sherlock Holmes in America, it's Sherlock Holmes updated and it's Sherlock Holmes with a female Watson. I wonder if he's Sherlock Holmes in any sense other than he's called Sherlock Holmes.

It's almost like they should have made Watson a woman but kept the show in Victorian times... that would actually be quite interesting.

I've never even seen Elementary but I can't help but think that Moffat is being a bit of a hypocrite and jealously protecting something that isn't even his. On the one hand he says he's barely changed it and attacks Elementary for doing so, but then on the other hand introduced new characters (Molly), changed the role of others (Mary), changed the dynamic of the show to being more about drama than mystery* including having Sherlock say he loves John, and pats himself on the back over the show's treatment of women (http://www.themarysue.com/moffat-sherlock-female-perspective). From what I know of Elementary I don't think its changes are any more unfitting; Elementary takes Sherlock's progressive view of women by going one further and making Watson a woman, then improves upon Moffat again by tackling the issue of race which Moffat has hidden from.

*Which in my opinion is a sign of Moffat running out of original material and not knowing how to write mystery of his own so is falling back on what he knows best, drama.

I realised when reading KindredSouls2's comments that what Sherlock is becoming is bad fanfiction. The change of dynamic to focus on relationships rather than plot; the instant gratification of characters always saying the things you want them to say. Sherlock and John may as well finish every episode by sharing a hug.

[–] nihilist_alter-ego 8 years ago

I don't want it to sound like...I don't want other people to try this. We welcome it, but don't damage the brand

Honestly I rolled my eyes so hard here they had trouble focusing to read the rest of your post, as Moffat is hardly the first to bring Holmes into the modern era. Basil Rathbone was doing modern interpretations back in the 1940's. So in essence he's claiming stewardship over a brand he doesn't own, for an interpretive style he didn't invent, which said brand has been experiencing for at least 70 years before he decided to try it himself. Brilliant.

When there's no more room on the internet, the dumb will walk the earth.

[–] Banjo_oz 8 years ago

Considering the sense of ownership Moffat has displayed in his work on Doctor Who, it's not much more surprising to think he'd feel the same way about Sherlock Holmes. The guy isn't a bad writer, but as a showrunner or producer he seems to glomp on to an existing property then try and twist it so it is all his own and nobody else should "play" with it.

[–] karpizan 8 years ago

It's been self-indulgent pretty much from the start. It's an interesting premise but it's rife with nepotism: Beryl Vertue and her daughter who happens to be married to Steven Moffat, Cumberbatch's parents playing... Cumberbatch's parents, Martin Freeman's Mrs playing Mary Morstan, Una Stubbs being lifelong chums with Cumberbatch's parents....

Couple of good stories early on but it's become almost a parody of itself and becoming increasingly less connected to the spirit of Holmes canon as it's gone on - now it just comes across as a vanity project for family and friends.

[–] Youthwisdom 8 years ago

Season three was terrible so they need to redeem the series in season 4. No more trying to explain Sherlock's childhood and introducing his parents and exploring the family relationship. Honestly, I don't care about those things. I can deal with situational reveals about how he became who he is but bringing his parents on the show both ruined the mystique and raised more questions than it answered. To me that was very heavy-handed and unnecessary considering there were no REAL mysteries either.

[–] Twixted 8 years ago

I understand it seems much different and maybe even pointless if you view it on the surface layer. Nothing on this show is a coincidence and the wrtiters have said so themselves that the show revolves around the relationship between our two main characters, John & Sherlock rather than the cases.

If you dig a bit deeper and start to read some of the subtext of this show everything will make more sense.