MovieChat Forums > The Wolverine (2013) Discussion > Logan vs. Shingen

Logan vs. Shingen

posted 10 years ago by Z-Dizzle
16 replies | jump to latest

I was always a little disappointed that Shingen seemed to get the upper hand for the most part when he's fighting Logan. All Logan does is push him a few times, but Shingen seemed to be beating him. I know Shingen is a good swordsman, but Logan is a superhero with superhuman strength and agility, so I thought he'd have no problem defeating Shingen. But I was wondering: Was Logan intentionally "going easy" on Shingen? Sometimes Logan looks like he's really trying to hit Shingen, but other times he seems to hold back a bit, maybe to keep Shingen talking. I remember at the end Logan says to Shingen, "You tried to kill your daughter.....live with that." So maybe that was his whole intention during the fight: to get information from him and ultimately to let him live with the guilt of trying to kill his own daughter. Not sure if that was Logan's plan the whole time or simply at the end of the fight, but it does put the whole fight in a different perspective for me.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Bizarro_Saints 10 years ago

Wolverine does not have superhuman strength. He has superhuman healing, senses and claws.

I am Bizarro Saints! http://tinyurl.com/5oal5q

[–] Z-Dizzle 10 years ago

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"Wolverine's agility and reflexes are also enhanced to levels that are beyond the physical limits of the finest human athlete.[111][112] Due to his healing factor's constant regenerative qualities, he can push his muscles beyond the limits of the human body without injury.[113] This, coupled by the constant demand placed on his muscles by over one hundred pounds of adamantium,[114] grants him some degree of superhuman strength. Since the presence of the adamantium negates the natural structural limits of his bones, he can lift or move weight that would otherwise damage a human skeleton.[112] He has been depicted breaking steel chains,[115][116][117][118] lifting several men above his head with one arm and throwing them through a wall,[113] lifting Ursa Major (in grizzly bear form) over his head before tossing him across a room,[119] and hauling a concert grand piano, which can weigh as much as 1,300 pounds,[120] and the platform it rests on, via a harness, while climbing a sheer cliff.[121]"

[111] Wolverine: Origins #5
[112] Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Wolverine 2004
[113] Wolverine vol. 2, #1 (Nov. 1988)
[114] Wolverine vol. 2, #57
[115] X-Men #111 (June 1978)
[116] Wolverine: The Amazing Immortal Man & Other Bloody Tales (July 2008)
[117] Wolverine: Origins #32 (March 2009)
[118] Wolverine (vol. 3) #51
[119] Wolverine: First Class #8 (Dec, 2008)
[120] "How Much Does a Grand Piano Weigh". Ask.com. Retrieved 2013-10-12.
[121] Wolverine: Weapon X vol. 1 #16 (Aug. 2010)

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Looks to me like he has superhuman strength.

"Game over, man! Game over!"

[–] Bizarro_Saints 9 years ago

Wolverine doesn't have superhuman strength. He may be at peak physical condition but that's it. All you've posted are less than a dozen examples of him being strong in his decades of comic book history.

I am Bizarro Saints! http://tinyurl.com/5oal5q

[–] Z-Dizzle 9 years ago

Um, breaking steel chains? Picking up several men with one arm and tossing them through a wall? Those and the other examples clearly depict superhuman strength, not peak physical conditioning. No human being can do those things, even at peak physical conditioning. That's called superhuman strength. How many more examples do you need to be convinced?

http://x-men.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Superhuman_Strength
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137597/3688844-logan-bone-claw-wolverine-vs-cassie-bat-girl-19589.jpg

"Game over, man! Game over!"

[–] the_bamboo_spear 9 years ago

Film Wolverine is not comic Wolverine. In the films he pretty much has normal strength, speed and agility, just the healing factor and bone (later adamantium) claws. So, while he's pretty hard to kill, a better fighter could slap him around.

Plus, movie Logan, while having extensive military training and combat history, is a brawler and a berserker. He doesn't have the ninja and martial arts training that the comic character has, but in the films he still has enhanced animal-like senses.

Plus, in the comic, Shingen slaps him around with a bokken at first.

[–] Z-Dizzle 9 years ago

That's fair. I'm trying to remember film examples of Wolverine exemplifying some kind of superhuman strength, and I can't quite think of any, although some of the movies I haven't seen for a long time. It seemed the person I was responding to before was denying Wolverine showed superhuman strength in any medium, which I disagree with. But you're right that film Wolverine and comic Wolverine are not quite the same. Thanks for your response!

"Game over, man! Game over!"

[–] Xaeden 9 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_%28comics%29

You're dealing with comic books and as such there is often a dichotomy between what they say and what they depict. There are a bunch of cases where they say characters are non-superpowered humans who have peek levels of strength and then they show them do things like hold their own against Spider-man who can lift 10 tons thanks to his super strength (as you have with Kingpin).

The idea behind Wolverine is supposed to be that he does not have superhuman strength, but his adamantium skeleton puts additional demand on his muscles, pushing his strength level to somewhere around the level of what the comics consider to be the peek for humans. Does that mean it's always consistently depicted that way across a whole slew of different writers? No, but legitimate super powers aren't consistently depicted either. Again, it's the comics. For every example you can produce to show something works one way, someone can produce an example showing the opposite.

[–] Z-Dizzle 9 years ago

That's a good point. A superhero's powers can definitely be inconsistent depending on the writers. Thanks for your response!

"Game over, man! Game over!"

[–] General_Friday 10 years ago

Even though Logan heals quickly, it doesn't necessarily mean he enjoys having to do it. Many writings of the character have him disliking physical injury a great deal, so it's not like he was letting Shingen slice him up.

Logan was able to outmatch Shingen only because of his mutant power. The injuries he sustained would mortally wound a normal human. I don't really think he was going totally easy on Shingen, but he also was not trying to kill him until forced to.

Logan is well trained for combat, but his mutant power facilitates getting into a mindset of not having to be as skilled in order to edge out his opposition. He can just charge in, claws drawn with little worry of injury and death. You saw in this movie, or the many many times Magneto bests him, how when his mutant power is suppressed or rendered useless that he easily beaten, or has a harder time winning.

- The General has spoken.

[–] Blackloz 9 years ago

I think it would be cool for Wolverine to have the strength of say Colossus or at least be on the same level as Sabertooth.

[–] jpogi 9 years ago

Not sabertooth, this guy really has superhuman strenght and agility, writers need this to put him in equal terms with logan as archnemesis, because logan gained adamatium bones

Colossus and wolverine can be equals since their body was made durable "struturally" by metals so they can exert more force on their body than the strongest normal human.

Spiderman on the other hand could be a lot more stronger but is limited by his almost normal body structure. Give him a carapace/exoskeleton (with similar characteristics to CFRP) that he can shed/molt out of when not needed and Peter will be alot more stronger.

[–] charlesdusk 9 years ago

Well, Shingen is a trained martial artist, Logan isn't. He's a good fighter but with enhanced abilities that give him a huge advantage in the long run.

[–] jjjjurand 9 years ago

Logan is not superhero, he's a mutant, big difference.

[–] Xaeden 9 years ago

A mutant is someone with super powers. Some mutants are heroes. Thus some mutants are very much superheroes. That's all a superhero, in its most fundamental definition, is; a hero with super powers. The source of those powers are irrelevant to determining whether someone can be classified as a superhero or not.

[–] 9 years ago

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