Movie blames the mom


Did anyone else think that this movie implies that Kevin turned out the way he did because of his mom's fault? The movie shows how she's extremely apprehensive about having him (i.e. losing her freedom, the pre-Kevin tomato scene is the happiest we ever see her). Even in the scene where she's giving birth, she's apprehensive about bringing him out into the world.
So once we get into Kevin's infancy part of the movie, the scenes get juxtaposed between Ava not wanting him there (even when he says, you don't like me, you're just used to me, she doesn't correct him) and him acting out. Then when he starts showing violent behavior in his teenage years, the audience is supposed to go, well of course, look at the mother he has...
I've seen other people say that the movie shows how, while the dad is oblivious, she's the only one who perceives his true nature . But I really think the movie doesn't support that theory. I think it's portraying quite the opposite. I think the movie implies she caused it.

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not too far removed from my thoughts. I basically took it as a very extreme narrative of a woman who is afraid to be a mother, is apprehensive and unsure all along the way but "goes thru the motions" anyways, finally succeeding in the end. She never truly abandoned him and that last hug was actually a hug goodbye, they both knew he was a goner in gen pop. She found the true meaning of unconditional love as did her son. There's also strands of how you can be too lenient as a parent (JC Reily) and very young stupid and angsty not realizing how good you had it and how much damage you can do (E Miller), if you take either of those perspectives. Finally there's a small strand of "judge not lest ye be judged" when Mom references fat people eating too much.

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[deleted]

Thank you. I think the movie conveyed that VERY well.From the start, there IS something definitely wrong with her son and no one is helping her.

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not sure what movie you were watching, but in this one the mother had no chance. he was evil by nature.

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I felt complete sympathy for Eva the whole time while watching the film. I believe this was director Ramsay's intention. Eva obviously suffered from post-natal depression and later was aware of her self-doubts and limitations as a parent. However, she tried her best to connect with her son and develop a relationship with him.

The treatment Eva received from people around her showed that society, as it usually does, blamed her for her perceived failures as a woman and a mother. I thought the film showed her suffering quite explicitly, while implicitly allowing us to empathise with her silent withdrawal. Eva's relationship with her daughter showed that she could relate to a child who at least met her halfway, but Kevin was definitely not normal from the beginning.

A chilling film (I haven't read the book) that, in my opinion, shows compassion for the woman and questions the notion that parents (and in particular, women) are always responsible for their children's eventual choices and actions. That's what I got from the film anyway.

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"I felt complete sympathy for Eva the whole time while watching the film. I believe this was director Ramsay's intention. Eva obviously suffered from post-natal depression and later was aware of her self-doubts and limitations as a parent. However, she tried her best to connect with her son and develop a relationship with him.

The treatment Eva received from people around her showed that society, as it usually does, blamed her for her perceived failures as a woman and a mother. I thought the film showed her suffering quite explicitly, while implicitly allowing us to empathise with her silent withdrawal. Eva's relationship with her daughter showed that she could relate to a child who at least met her halfway, but Kevin was definitely not normal from the beginning. "

agreed.

"in my opinion, shows compassion for the woman and questions the notion that parents (and in particular, women) are always responsible for their children's eventual choices and actions. That's what I got from the film anyway."

the author's intention was, the book makes that much more clear, that the father was to blame. he ignored every sign, every red flag.

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i agree

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Maybe because it is his mums fault...

"Maybe he's just a guy, that's trying to do the right thing" - Bruce Wayne.17/04/2015

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I've seen you trolling on virtually every post on this message board. Can't you just piss off and go elsewhere?

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[deleted]

Ho hum...

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The kid was evil, plain and simple. That's why he was all nicey-nice to his dad when younger and then turned around and and treated his mom like a piece 'o crap. Bad moms can make kids fearful, angry, sad. Not evil.
Sometimes it just isn't the woman's fault, no matter how hard you point that finger.

'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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But it is her fault.

"Maybe he's just a guy, that's trying to do the right thing" - Bruce Wayne.17/04/2015

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Since you're not giving an adult explanation I am chalking this up to good ol fashioned trolling and I will let you have at it then. Don't know why people do this other than to be evil themselves. Me, personally, I think we have an overabundance of trolls and not enough stable, intelligent people. It''s so easy to act like a little kid and too hard to adult...that's what it is. Enjoy your stick-poking, little man.

'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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Pot kettle black.


"Maybe he's just a guy, that's trying to do the right thing" - Bruce Wayne.17/04/2015

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Oooh, it just occured to me.....you're a Kevin. I'm sorry! Totally missed that at first. I hope things turn around for you and you are able to find some happiness in your life, no lie. Because everyone deserves to be happy!

'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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There was nothing intellectual in your comment.

I can tell you're a bad parent, or will be, if anyone stoops low enough to *beep* you.

"Maybe he's just a guy, that's trying to do the right thing" - Bruce Wayne.17/04/2015

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GO TO YOUR ROOM KEVIN!!!! NO DINNER!

'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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Well done for confirming you're a troll.

Deluded fools not wanting women to take responsibility of their actions.

"Maybe he's just a guy, that's trying to do the right thing" - Bruce Wayne.17/04/2015

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You think I'm a troll, but I thought you were a troll too. Funny. It's call differing opinions. I thought I was being nice. I didn't use any bad language or anything.
I'm all for blaming the parents when it's justified and warranted, but When a kid displays twisted and manipulative behavior at toddler-age? I think that goes well beyond anything a parent can control without serious medication.
If you look at the author's interview on this book, you will see what I am talking about.
Sometimes there are just chemical imbalances that you have no control over. I am beginning to think there are deeper issues with your persistence in blaming the woman here, (and not a word about the father - after all the son DID murder him in anger) especially for a fictional movie where the author intentionally made it clear what her intentions were. Sometimes there just isn't blame to be made, it's just the way it is.


'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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[deleted]

You think I'm a troll, but I thought you were a troll too. Funny. It's call differing opinions. I thought I was being nice. I didn't use any bad language or anything.
I'm all for blaming the parents when it's justified and warranted, but When a kid displays twisted and manipulative behavior at toddler-age? I think that goes well beyond anything a parent can control without serious medication.
If you look at the author's interview on this book, you will see what I am talking about.
Sometimes there are just chemical imbalances that you have no control over. I am beginning to think there are deeper issues with your persistence in blaming the woman here, (and not a word about the father - after all the son DID murder him for his parental ineptitude) especially for a fictional movie where the author made it clear what her intentions were. Sometimes there just isn't blame to be made, it's just the way it is.


'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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There is no such things as evil from Birth, it always from Enviroment or Parrents.

Read Bruce D. Perrys book, "The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog: What Traumatized Children Can Teach Us About Loss, Love and Healing"

Where he has reaserched, how a pyschotic child become murder.

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What I personally got out of it was that Kevin was born evil(as scene in the part where he purposely sh**s himself to spite his mom), but the tragedy was supposed to be that his mom was given the blame and hatred for Kevin's actions.

I think we were supposed to see that when something so tragic happens like this, people in grieving look for someone or something to put the blame on even if it may not be the right person or thing to throw hatred at because they are hurting and want to make themselves feel better.

"DID YOUR ASS GET ENOUGH WINGS?!"- Frylock

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My opinion is that it was both nature and nurture. Psychopathy and sociopathy can both come from genetics, very rarely does it come from neglect alone. But you have to look at the way Eva treats Kevin as well. There's no possible way that Kevin became the way he was just because of Eva's treatment. If she had a child without the genetic disposition, he would not have been that severe. Just as if one treated a child with the genetic disposition properly, they may not develop the disorder. They still wouldn't have a great relationship, as affection and attachment to a mother figure is essential in childhood development, but he would not be a sociopath.

We cannot blame Eva either. She did not want children, so therefore did not educate herself about childhood development and how affection comes into play. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in real life as well. It is no blame on the parent, especially since she was coerced into having a child she did not want.

It's just a very sad story, told beautifully by the director.

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Yup. Some people are jut not meant to have children, and that's okay. That's why I think there should be psychological tests given to prospective parents and you should require a license to procreate. This would get rid of a lot of issues !

'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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100 percent.

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i think this is just begging to be a TV series! sure it will be done soon

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I agree, cubstml.

I just saw a documentary on Psychopaths; Kevin was at least that, if not possessed.

I took this as a horror film, thus it could deviate from our reality.

In fact, I half expected the movie to be a dream, which Ava had in the waiting room while still pregnant. I would not have felt cheated, due to the depth of emotion in the story.

A YouTube interview with Tilda Swinton indicated her belief that it shows parents just don't know what to do, they just try. I think that fits her character in this film, perfectly.

The end was a little confusing to me. When Ava says "You handled it so well, [something] minor, strung out on Prozac..." This indicates she expects he'll be out of Prison in a few years. However, the scars on Kevin's head from "Junior Prison" and his actual fear of "the other place" indicate to me, maybe he won't make it out, due to being in general population.

Another confusing part was when he was sick, and seemed to turn around and hate the father, but love his mother. I guess that was just his way of further torturing Ava by giving her false hope.

When she told the Jehovah's Witnesses she knew she was going to Hell, I thought "No, you've already been there!"

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I disagree with you.I have seen this movie twice now and I think it is deliberately saying there is something terribly wrong with her son and she is the only person who sees it. The doctor dismisses it, the father is completely oblivious. I was appalled that people wrote here she rejected the son. That is not what is happening in this story at all. She is terrified of him and feeling that no one else is seeing what she's seeing. She is trapped and the conclusion is horror.

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[deleted]

Kevin is an utter sociopath. There's no easy explanation and that is depressing.
GIVE THAT MAN A GOLD STAR! COMMENT OF THE DAY!
I agree, and that statement applies to probably 80% of mental disorders. First and foremost - this story is SUPPOSED to be a downer; it was meant as a cautionary tale about the wisdom of bringing children into the world if you aren't ready, or simply don't want them ("cautionary tales" are usually exaggerated somewhat to make a point - as is the case here). This is not Victorian London - There are MANY options available to people in Eva's situation.
It was also intended to open dialogue about something we see MUCH too often on the news: some white boy (usually teenaged or not far past it) with a gun (usually stolen or procured from a parent whose storage of said weapon was lackadaisical at best) walks into a theater, mall, etc., and begins shooting randomly. Obviously, these are not the actions of a sane, well-adjusted person. This naturally invites debates about where to lay blame, etc., and Mom is usually the most convenient target.
Also, your point about "nature vs. nurture" added yet another layer here: I read a fascinating article not long ago about how doctors can now diagnose psychopathy at a VERY early age (I think it was in NYTimes Sunday Magazine). Unfortunately, as soon as you get over the shock of that diagnosis, you're told that there is no formal treatment for it, nor is there really anything they can do about it. Can you imagine being told your 8 year-old is a psychopath and always will be? So, now psychopathy has joined autism as an "avoided diagnosis"

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[deleted]

LOL! Sorry . . . I didn't read all of the name, just "Charles . . . "

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[deleted]

The real meaning of Rose Bud huh.

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Tell that to TehSuperCow - they think it's 100% the mother's fault. She was a horrible parent that could have turned everything around if she had only LOVED him a little more.

'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect'-Mark Twain

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Actually, I think the movie brilliantly portrays the interaction of a difficult child, an exhausted, non-(physically)nurturing mom, and a clueless dad. Research says that bonding via eye-contact immediately after birth is necessary to the healthy emotional development of the child. Close physical contact during upbringing is also crucial. Lack of either, as was the case here, leaves severe social deficits. Genetic predisposition is more or less required for the deficit to be complete sociopathy (i.e. Lack of conscience). Mom was incompetent in both areas, and I got the feeling dad was more of a buddy than a nurturer. The kid was ok with dad, but not close enough not to kill him in order to get back at mom with whom he was enraged.
I don't believe for a minute that the hug at the end was a hug goodbye. A woman who faithfully visited her son in jail wasn't going to bail out on him when he gets let out. I think it was an act of recognition of what had been lacking in their relationship.

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how about kids whose mothers die in childhood? or kids whose mothers breastfeed/eye contact and ends up abusing them?

my son was taken from me- c section- Into special care and I saw him one week later.

ten years on and he is wonderful affectionate child and we bond beautifully.

your theory is flawed

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I'm sure s/he didn't mean to say that connection with the mother on the very first day after birth was the ONLY factor that creates a socially/emotionally healthy child. But infancy DOES bring one of the first, and most powerful, lessons that a child learns, which shapes their interaction with the world forever after: when I am an infant and have no language, I cry, and my caregiver comes. I cry, and s/he feeds me. I am wet, and cry, and s/he changes me. I am scared, and cry, and s/he picks me up and cuddles me. That is how children learn that the world (and people in it) is a safe, predictable place. And if they cry, and no one responds, (or the caregiver responds but not in a healthy manner) then the child learns that the world is a pretty scary, lonely place. And they learn that they must really be unloveable, if they can't even inspire love in their own mom. We all know that phrase "a face only a mother can love"--what does it mean when you can't even get your own mom to love you? You must be pretty terrible. So a kid who is born to a mom who is unable to love (or respond to) that child grows up thinking they are unloveable. Unworthy. This experience is very often present in children who have attachment disorders, severe personality disorders, and sociopathy. Not always, but very often.

Of course a child who does not have access to their mother in the early weeks of their life (such as being hospitalized after a traumatic birth, or being raised in an orphanage) can overcome that. But it requires a parent/caregiver who responds to the child's needs in a consistent way after that. Which it certainly sounds like you did with your child, in spite of his/your birth experience. I'm sure that's a big part of why your son is emotionally healthy now. One of the very first scenes with the infant Kevin shows the baby crying in a shrill manner, and mom is holding him at arms length, saying "hey, hey, hey" and *smiling* at the baby in a nervous manner. She was doing the best she could do, but it was not an empathic response. If you cry and someone gives you a tense smile, do you feel comforted? No.

I feel this movie (and the book it was based on) provided no clear answer, which feels very real to me. I feel the mom was not ready to be a mom, she was ambivalent about the child before he even came into the world, and when he did arrive, he was not an easy child to bond with. And she held him at arm's length (literally and figuratively) and provided physical care, but did not give her love to him. And he knew it. Of course he grew up resenting her, and resenting his little sister who came along afterwards and easily inspired the mom's love. And dad missed every opportunity to support the mom and help his son. There is no one clear person to blame. That makes it all the more tragic, because we would be more comfortable if we at least knew who was to blame.

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While I loved this movie, I hate that the mom receives so much flack for it. I can understand her feeling guilty, but this child seemed to be damaged beyond repair. Was she perfect? No,but she seemed to do all that she could do.She repeatedly tried to connect with him, but he was mostly unresponsive and cold. I feel like she could have cried her eyes out and called out her love for her son, but he wouldn't have cared. Celia, his little sister, just responded much differently and that poor child was the opposite of her brother. Kevin and the mother bonding at mini golf provided balance, but there still seemed to be a bit of distance between the two of them.
Basically, the mother went out of her way to try to build a relationship with Kevin to understand him and mend the amount of turmoil between them. He was just so damn awful...
Maybe I just feel this way because of my relationship to my mom.

A bit of the old ultraviolence...

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The movie does not blame Eva, but is about Eva blaming herself (IMHO). Because it is told from her point of view and in a non-linear fashion, I believe it is her reflecting on her actions that may or may not have contributed to Kevin turning out the way he did.

Beauty is unbearable, drives us to despair.

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Agree with ctizon. I think the movie is more about the mom (able people around her) blaming herself. She is reviewing every flawed moment she had as a mother.

What also struck me is how quiet the movie was, and it seems like the characters also suffered from poor communication. It may not have been what made the boy "evil", but it may have prevented the horrific outcome.

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I actually thought the blame was fairly dispersed to both.

In the beginning when she is unhappily pregnant, and so frustrated with Kevin as a baby (due to his constant screaming), you feel that she is doing something wrong. She has such strong contempt for having him, that you can understand that it very well could have a negative, lasting effect on him forever... being so unwanted as an infant. Especially considering what an intelligent, cagey child he turns out to be.

She still tried to engage him as child, though. By worrying about his speech so taking him to the doctor, trying to teach him math, play with the ball with him, caring for him when he is sick, etc. It is shown that she had compassion and concern for him overall, except for in the moments where he being truly terrible to her.

And so it was too late, and he's a little sociopath brat that wants to make her angry. By the time he is a preschooler or whatever and he is destroying her maps and other things, you know he's just plain bad. So his abusive and creepy (and ultimately criminal) tendencies as a teenager are no surprise, and I doubt anyone watching blames the mom at that point. Also post-massacre, with the way people treat her in her daily life... she is portrayed, correctly, to be a victim of sorts.

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