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The Festering stench of intellectual dishonesty

posted 13 years ago by bubuh1117
5 replies | jump to latest

This movie’s intellectual dishonesty can inspire both humor and rage. Its pure slander and manipulation. And it’s blatant. I love the scene where he’s talking to Bill Black who implies that September 11th was used as a convenient way to re divert FBI resourses away from financial markets. He does this by citing an FBI memo written in 2004 that claims mortgage fraud is rampant. He doesn’t go into detail. Only says Mortgage fraud. What kind of fraud? Is this fraud done by banks or fraud done by lenders who falsify documents? For example illegal immigrants basically using identity theft to get loans. But I digress. He says this memo came out in 2004. He then says this “but then September 11th happened…” September 11th, 2001. If this memo came out in 2004 how did September 11th 2001 yank people away? If it happened 3 years earlier? A less sofisticated person might think this memo came out before the terrorist attacks. Sadly I fear that’s what the film makers were counting on. This was a clear attempt to mislead the viewer. I had to chuckle when the priest in the film said capitalists are great propogandists.

Maybe he’s right. How much did Michael Moore make on this film?

Then he shows an old reel showing young children doing a Nazi Salute to an American flag while talking about capitalism. This is what Hitler said about capitalism. "in final analysis", "it would be better for us to go down with Bolshevism than live in eternal slavery under capitalism."

Sound familiar?

And in the 25 points of the Nazi Party were the following exerts. that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens . . . the abolition of all incomes unearned by work . . . the ruthless confiscation of all war profits ... the nationalization of all businesses that have been formed into corporations ... profit-sharing in large enterprises ... extensive development of insurance for old-age ... land reform suitable to our national requirements.

Sound Familiar? Aren’t these some of the themes in Michael Moore’s film? Universal Healthcare? Profit sharing? Nationalization of businesses. And end to CEO bonuses? EPA regulation of mining and construction. The FDA now regulating even susbtanance farming.

I’m not calling Michael Moore a Nazi, but is it fair for him to equate capitalism to Nazis? Is it fair to call those who want to live free of the hand of govement to Nazis?

[–] loismustdie111 13 years ago

I think it was more of a jab at Americans' unquestioned loyalty to capitalism than making any direct comparison to the Nazi's values and ideals.

[–] Quanfa 13 years ago

Hitler's version of socialism had to do with the racial control of businesses at a time when German Jews owned most of the businesses in a war ravaged, all but broke Germany. Michael Moore's version of socialism has to do with government control of businesses as opposed to greedy capitalst corporations. They seem the same but they're different because of the racial component. Moore doesn't appear to have any racial identity with government ownership unless it's maybe anti-white, given the title of one of his books.

But one can make a correlation with a non-racial national socialism with many of the left wing socialists in America, even today. I think anyone that wants the government to control businesses because they prefer them to "evil" corporations with multi-national or greedy private interests falls into that, but naziism? No.

Oh and that reel of kids doing a nazi salute - that was pre-1942 American pledge of allegience protocol. Looking at Francis Bellamy (it's originator and avowed socialist) I wouldn't imagine it was ever intended to promote capitalism!

[–] bubuh1117 13 years ago

I never knew the context of that old reel. In fact I'd never seen an actual reel. Just a photograph from a history text book in high school. It didn't even explain the context. Ironically that picture was in a chapter about the cold war.

Francis Bellamy was an avowed socialist? Interesting. Like I said. Intellectual dishonesty and manipulation.

[–] saluk64007 13 years ago

He is making a statement. It really doesn't matter what the reel was originally for, the filmmaker is using juxtaposition of various footage and commentary to communicate an idea. Where or what the stock footage is from does not invalidate the idea being proposed, that kids are often brought up to believe that capitalism is the bees knees without really grasping the downsides.

The september 11 thing, I may have to go back and watch, but I think he was talking about how they used fear in 2008 to try and push stuff through the same way they used fear after september 11 to enact social change. One possible answer to why Obama has not gotten as much done as Bush did, is that fear is a better motivator than hope.

I did have some issues with this documentary. There were several stories I wanted to know a bit more about than was shown, and often felt like things were presented a little too one sided. But there was still a lot of good stuff here. And what you call intellectually dishonest, is meant to be stylistic. It's part documentary and part satire.

If you don't understand satire, you won't understand Moore's films, as he employs it often. The satire elements are in no way meant to convey facts, but to present you an emotional response and a lens to view the facts that ARE presented.

I did find this documentary a little lighter on facts than some of his other films.

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 13 years ago

This movie’s intellectual dishonesty can inspire both humor and rage. Its pure slander and manipulation. And it’s blatant.

Hard to disagree with you. I think you make an interesting point.

I think though, the following is probably false:

Nazis = Socialist
Michael Moore = Socialist

Therefore, Michael Moore = Nazi

I think it unquestionable that there were bigotted agendas within Nazi Germany that Michael Moore would be staunchly against. Just because the Nazis pursued a doctrine of racial hate and blame while preaching for government control, doesn't mean that Michael Moore necessarily needs to be associated with the same hate if he is also for higher levels of government intervention. These two things are separately identifiable policies and certainly not related or required to be coupled if one preaches socialism.

But as you point out, it certainly is also the case for capitalism. I'm unsure why Michael Moore decided to try and provide symbolism that equated capitalism to Nazidom. If anything, I would have said it's significantly harder to be pro 'free markets' and be bigotted than be for 'protection' and be bigotted, but I think neither should really be compared at all to any thing Nazi.

"I am Jack's cold sweat."