MovieChat Forums > Capitalism: A Love Story (2009) Discussion > What is with Americans defending the ric...

What is with Americans defending the rich on this board?

posted 13 years ago by Aidan_Mclaren
83 replies | jump to latest

Do you really think you aren't brainwashed?

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

I don't think it's a matter of defending the rich. It's a matter of defending the right to own your property. In this aspect, their rights are everyone's rights.

What is not defended is the backroom dealings and their renting of our representatives in order to gain political and economic favor. This, of course, is criminal behavior out of our representatives, rather than the rich.

The rich are not the problem. It's how they are represented by government that is, and has been, the problem.

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- Coming soon to Canada and on DVD!

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Yeah, defending the right to own property to where it exploits and manipulates others and blaming the people when they are manipulated and exploited by those who know they will get away with it. This is what happened in 19th century England, and it's happening in 21st century USA.

Libertarians (The American kind) are idiots. Their minds are completely out of touch with reality.

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

So you want to do away with property rights? What good do you see coming from that?

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- Coming soon to Canada and on DVD!

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

You mean you're trying to affect change like Reagan?

No wonder the world looks at America with pity.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

I'm pretty sure I had something to say. Perhaps take another look?

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Victorias_Secret 13 years ago

Ayn Rand never provided a satisfactory explanation for an individual having the ”right” to own land. Nobody created land so by what moral principle does somebody get to own it? Yet land is the basis of all wealth. People grab land and force everyone else to work for them. They claim superiority over the landless and propertyless. They claim the ”right” to destroy the earth because they ”own” it.

Terry (one of the 99%)
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

[–] katnim 12 years ago

you must be joking!. "the rich are not the problem"? If you believe this you are ignoring the fact, that the rich play a big part in the current political agenda of the US. Ever heard of lobbying? Ever heard of party donation? If you think the rich are just regular people like you and me then you are very very naive. Funny though how the "right for private property" is being defended by those who own almost nothing and never will but still believe in equal opportunity and dream about being rich one day. Let me burst your bubble: you will not. And the rich are the ones that ensure that this stays this way.

[–] gabby_bm 12 years ago

Mostly because the people we CHOOSE to represent us are actually selling off our rights and liberties to the highest, wealthiest bidders.
Equal representation in government and law would certainly put to rest a lot of the power of wealth, keeping that power to personal choices rather than the decisions that impact us all.

I love that the wealthy have the power of choice. I don't like so much that the wealthy have the power over my representatives.

My "#3" key is broken so I'm putting one here so i can cut & paste with it.

[–] YankeeDood 13 years ago

Well, they are either brainwashed or are actually part of the elitist circle pretending they are ordinary folks. What better way to break down any resistance than to screw up the internal machinery? It's going on everywhere online, but the dumbed-down people are too blind to discover this effective scheme. It goes back to the old Biblical saying "wolves in sheep clothing". I'm not religious, but some words in the bible are indeed quite valid.

What are YOU doing this Halloween?
http://sites.google.com/site/bizarreworldradio

[–] Quanfa 13 years ago

I don't get it, I really don't. Who on this board is blindly defending "the rich?" You really think oppressive landowners are the problem in America? You know, America is just like England when it comes to property ownership. In England everything's really owned by the crown, you don't really own it even if you have a deed. In America they call it Eminent domain and the government can seize your proerty anytime they want to (it's more complicated than that in practice, but essentially that's how it works.)

This is not the rich, this is the government. Now it's true that most people in the US government happen to be wealthy and it's also true that it's pretty much impossible to get anywhere in American politics without having money or access to money, but the problem is still with the government, not the size of someone's bank book by definition.

Now if you want to call people out for blindly following a political party in America you'd be right on the money. People with political allegiences in America are the dumbest people I have ever met. It's funny, all the protests of the OWS are about the evil corporations and greedy banks, etc., but these are all entities working within the confines of the law. And if that's under disagreement take out a class action lawsuit and sue the person or people you say are "illegally" doing anything. If you have a problem with the law, change the law, don't take it out on the person who benefits from it.

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Don't act stupid, for the love of God! You know people are defending this in the threads we've seen on this board.

The rich controls the government; making them their puppets so that they can prevent anyone else from having a bigger slice of the pie.

Isn't this obvious by now?

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

So who's to blame- the rich who are purchasing the product of the government- or our representatives who are putting our government up for sale?

I can't blame the rich for wanting to buy government favors. I blame our representatives who are selling them.

Place the blame where the blame belongs- the Democrat and Republican parties who have been selling off our country piece by piece.

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- Coming soon to Canada and on DVD!

[–] Victorias_Secret 12 years ago

Place the blame where the blame belongs- the Democrat and Republican parties who have been selling off our country piece by piece.

Um, Gabby bm, it's Democratic Party, not "Democrat party."

Terry (one of the 99%)
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

[–] Quanfa 13 years ago

Aiden - "rich" is relative and always will be, just like "poor." What I see is two different paths to happiness and people disagreeing on which one is better.

All I'm saying is this obsession with the rich is unproductive and doesn't seem any better to me that obsessive materialism.

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

When you have the most wealthy 1% controlling things in America, "rich" is no longer just a point of view - it's a very real and hellish thing for those who aren't.

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

Then we have to change the controllers. Yet, every election people insist on voting for the same controllers. If the people keep on buying Big Macs and Whoppers then guess what? McDonalds and Burger King control the market. The same goes with Democrats and Republicans. They have proven time and again that they are NOT for the American people. They are not for equity and fair trade.

Yet, every election we get the same old thing and then we get the same old results. "Another day older and the deeper in debt..."

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- Coming soon to Canada and on DVD!

[–] Quanfa 13 years ago

You still haven't proven to me that the so-called 1% are doing anything the government hasn't allowed them to do. If they're doing something illegal than hire a lawyer and sue someone. Do something tangible. Otherwise your problem should be with a government that allows money to control everything.

Another thing - it's not "hellish" in America in any way, shape or form. If you really think that (and I'm not justifying the screwed up American government by any means), but let's get real for a minute - you've got poor people with cell phones in America. You have people in America who don't go to free food pantries available every single day. I know it's not all jet skis and vacations to Martha's Vinyard, but it's not exactly the Grapes of Wrath either.

My advice would be to forget the rich and focus on fixing the government instead.

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Compared to western europe and Australia, it is pretty bad and thus "hellish". When we get pilots paid worse than fast food managers, as Michael Moore said, it's pretty terrible.

But, continue justifying America if it makes you feel good.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Quanfa 13 years ago

I already said the government in America needs massive repair, so I'm not sure how you equate that with me justifying America!

You're even misreading what Michael Moore said about pilots and fast food managers. A pilot CAN make less than a fast food manager. That doesn't mean pilots get paid worse than fast food managers. And luckily nobody is forced to be a pilot in America. Besides, everybody makes less than someone else! Get over it - when you get a job you negotiate your own salary. We don't live in a country where if you're a pilot you get x and if you're a doctor you get x.

America has problems, as I freely admit, but one of the biggest problems and one of the biggest contributors to people's general unhappiness is envy.

But continue obsessing over other people's money and ignoring the real problem if it makes you feel good.

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

But that's just stupid. The fact that pilots CAN be paid worse than a fast food manager is wrong. If we actually have to argue over this, then you've proved my point. The fact you're justifying it makes you look like a weak idiot who can't accept reality.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Pilots deserve a high pay. They transport people over long distances and are responsible for their lives. It's not as simple as "they can love it or leave it" you childish zombie. We need pilots.

If you are truly legit, and are not a troll, I personally feel ashamed to be a human being.

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

And restaurant managers who are responsible for the safe food consumption of thousands of customers per day deserve to be paid less?

Pilots are bus drivers in the sky. I don't see much reason to pay them any more than any other bus driver. They've just been trained to drive their buses in three dimensions.

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- NOW in Canada
Coming soon to DVD!

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

You are an idiot...

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

What? I'm an idiot because you expect someone to nod their head to your statements that do not make logical sense?

I wish you were dead. Your mere existence is an embarrassment to mankind.

I'm not kidding either with my last statement. If you truly are serious about pilots being paid that amount is fair, then you truly deserve death.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

You did say it was "fair" by saying they have a choice to stay or not in their job. Would you like it if you learnt how to become a pilot and I told you that it's your fault that you get paid peanuts by your employers because you didn't leave and learn another skill? Don't call me an idiot because you're so stupid you can't figure out what's wrong here. The majority of the western world would gladly condemn your childish stupidity.

Who said anybody would kill you? I just said you deserve death.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Supply and demand?! Seriously?!

I have never heard of a pilot in Australia being paid the same as a fast food manager. Nobody would stand for that, and your moronic justification for it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Flying a plane is not the same a driving a bus. If you truly think it is, you are incredibly stupid. So much so, in fact, that there is no point in trying to reason with you.

You are one of the many people in America responsible for the hate your country receives.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

Flying a plane is not the same a driving a bus. If you truly think it is, you are incredibly stupid. So much so, in fact, that there is no point in trying to reason with you.

Yeah, that's me. What is an airplane? It's a bus (or a delivery truck) with wings. Is it more difficult to operate? Yes. But that doesn't remove the fact that it's a winged bus.

If you want to put pilots on some sort of pedestal like people did 50 years ago, that's your choice. But the glamour, the mystique and prestige are gone. There are tons of commercial pilots out there and they need to compete and do the grunt work just like any other employee.

Because it's not the sensational job it once was, with pilots being able to demand high wages due to scarcity. There are anywhere from 30-50,000 commercial flights in a day, and nearly 300,000 commercial pilots to fly them.

And as I said before, if they do their job well, it has no impact on the profits. People expect a pilot to take off, fly and land safely. That's the service of the airline. Only when a pilot (or driver) screws up does it impact the bottom line. So you want capable pilots. Naturally. We all do, whether we fly or not (just like we want capable truckers, bus drivers and oil tanker captains).

But a restaurant manager does a job that directly impacts the bottom line and for that, the corporation is willing to pay well.

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- NOW in Canada
Coming soon to DVD!

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 13 years ago

Supply and demand?! Seriously?!

Yes. Seriously. The relative price of something in society is determined by the price people in society are willing to pay for it. Sorry but that's life. I want a coke I may pay up to $5 for it if I'm thirsty enough. Will I pay $500 for it? No.

What's more, more people want to work as pilots than as fast food managers, for obvious reasons, it's a more glamourous job and people like yourself obviously idolise one and not the other. As a result, people will take less money and work as a pilot, than it will take them to work as a fast food manager.

If I offered you $50,000 to be a pilot, or $50,000 to be a fast food manager, which one would you chose? What if I offered you $49,000 to be a pilot, but $51,000 to be a fast food manager?

I have never heard of a pilot in Australia being paid the same as a fast food manager. Nobody would stand for that, and your moronic justification for it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Well you'd know, you'd clearly be an expert on wages of people in the fast food industry. FYI, I'm Australian and fast food managers who manage more than one store get surpringly more than you would think, and some domestic pilots who don't fly for Qantas get surprisingly less than you would think.

You are one of the many people in America responsible for the hate your country receives.

Can I just say, on behalf of everyone in Australia, I swear to everyone reading this that Australians are not as stupid as this guy. He is just the world's stupidest person and happens to reside in Australia. We have good medical here and clearly this guy would need it... he seems like he would have great difficulty in remembering to breathe every few seconds without medical support.

And to add to what I said earlier, if you support the Occupy movement in Australia, you are considerably stupider than I suggested earlier.

UPDATE - I just googled this guy... I've never googled anyone and had the word 'troll' come up so many times. From what I can gather he's just a serial troll... someone even made a Wikipedia article about it.

"I am Jack's cold sweat."

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Let's get some stuff out of the way first:

Oh, you googled me? And what is this supposed to prove? I don't even deny I am outspoken and confrontational. There is a difference between being a troll and what I am, however. But, you're probably too stupid to figure that out, seeing as how you're unintelligent enough to think where I've been on the internet is supposed to prove how I'm wrong here.

Well you'd know, you'd clearly be an expert on wages of people in the fast food industry. FYI, I'm Australian and fast food managers who manage more than one store get surpringly more than you would think, and some domestic pilots who don't fly for Qantas get surprisingly less than you would think.

You're an idiot. I have worked in a fast food chain, and there is no way in hell pilots who fly plains in Australia would earn less than $15 an hour. You're not fooling me here.

Can I just say, on behalf of everyone in Australia, I swear to everyone reading this that Australians are not as stupid as this guy. He is just the world's stupidest person and happens to reside in Australia. We have good medical here and clearly this guy would need it... he seems like he would have great difficulty in remembering to breathe every few seconds without medical support.

And to add to what I said earlier, if you support the Occupy movement in Australia, you are considerably stupider than I suggested earlier.

No, actually, that paragraph applies to you more than me. When we have an Australian actually defend this practice, and spurt out an even more childish justification than the Americans here, you know this person is that pathetic.

You know what? I'd rather be a troll than what you are. Some little schit kowtowing to a country that deserves no justification for what it is. And don't tell me that's not what you're doing.

Why do people like you have to exist and make humanity the horror it is today?

Exactly how am I stupid because I called out some people for saying the pilots are to blame for having low wages and not finding other work? That's some great logic there, genius! Take a look in the mirror before you call someone mentally retarded, you abominable wretch.

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 13 years ago

Oh, you googled me? And what is this supposed to prove? I don't even deny I am outspoken and confrontational. There is a difference between being a troll and what I am, however. But, you're probably too stupid to figure that out, seeing as how you're unintelligent enough to think where I've been on the internet is supposed to prove how I'm wrong here.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I just thought given the way this 'conversation' has progressed, the other users of the board may be interested to know that someone thought you were such a troll they made a wiki about it. I wouldn't normally google someone, but given that you used your own name for your monkier and given that I don't think I've ever heard of anyone as stupid as you on the internet (and that is saying something!) I wanted to see if I could find out what you looked like and if you were actually from Australia because I figured if you were as stupid as you come across you probably would have been on the news at some point.

You're an idiot. I work in a fast food chain, and there is no way in hell pilots who fly plains in Australia would earn less than $15 an hour.

I corrected your above posting for you, as we all know the above is true. Good for you getting gainful employment! Hope it lasts for you!

haha yeah... you found me out and foiled my plans when you pointed out that everyone in fast food chains gets paid $15hr regardless of tenure or position. Never mind the fact I specifically limited my example to 'people who manage more than one store' that get paid well in my first post... I'm sure that someone who manages two stores gets paid the same as the kid who's just shown up for his first day and is taking out the trash.

Your 'logic' of people getting paid in society relative to the perceived importance of their job is ridiculous. I'd bother going through examples for you, but then you'd just complain about them and misunderstand them just as you have done to the one above and countless others posted by gabby and DC, and we'd go around in circles wasting my time with me pointing out something that anyone who comes on these boards can see as plain as day, that you are clearly too stupid to even go to the bathroom without help, let alone participate in any sort of meaningful discussion.

Why do people like you have to exist and make humanity the horror it is today?

Because people like me have to keep the country going and take the jobs that actually keep society flowing so that people like you can continue to flip burgers and pick up their juicy welfare cheques.

That's the last time I'll bother to humour you, I've already spent enough time on you as it is and I'm content that anyone who reads this series of posts with think the same. Run a long and go back to playing in the dirt somewhere little troll! Have a nice life little fella!

"I am Jack's cold sweat."

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

I'm not trying to prove anything.

Then shut your mouth and go away.

I just thought given the way this 'conversation' has progressed, the other users of the board may be interested to know that someone thought you were such a troll they made a wiki about it. I wouldn't normally google someone, but given that you used your own name for your monkier and given that I don't think I've ever heard of anyone as stupid as you on the internet (and that is saying something!) I wanted to see if I could find out what you looked like and if you were actually from Australia because I figured if you were as stupid as you come across you probably would have been on the news at some point.

I made that wiki page, and I abandoned it when I didn't care anymore. Are you so stupid you can't figure out when someone is a troll or not? Or are you just saying it because you have nothing up your sleeve but to label me as one as proof to denounce my words?

I corrected your above posting for you, as we all know the above is true. Good for you getting gainful employment! Hope it lasts for you!

What is this supposed to prove other than you're a stupid dickhead?

haha yeah... you found me out and foiled my plans when you pointed out that everyone in fast food chains gets paid $15hr regardless of tenure or position. Never mind the fact I specifically limited my example to 'people who manage more than one store' that get paid well in my first post... I'm sure that someone who manages two stores gets paid the same as the kid who's just shown up for his first day and is taking out the trash.

That was just a number I put to what a manager could earn in an hour in a fast food chain. I was paid $11 an hour in subway when I worked there.

Your 'logic' of people getting paid in society relative to the perceived importance of their job is ridiculous. I'd bother going through examples for you, but then you'd just complain about them and misunderstand them just as you have done to the one above and countless others posted by gabby and DC, and we'd go around in circles wasting my time with me pointing out something that anyone who comes on these boards can see as plain as day, that you are clearly too stupid to even go to the bathroom without help, let alone participate in any sort of meaningful discussion.

I'm stupid just because you want me to be, not because I am. If we were to follow your stupidity, then why don't we pay engineers, for example, a poor salary for the skill they acquired just because of "supply and demand"? You stupid ****wit...

Why don't you actually go in explaining why this is OK instead of being an arrogant wanker?

Because people like me have to keep the country going and take the jobs that actually keep society flowing so that people like you can continue to flip burgers and pick up their juicy welfare cheques.

That's the last time I'll bother to humour you, I've already spent enough time on you as it is and I'm content that anyone who reads this series of posts with think the same. Run a long and go back to playing in the dirt somewhere little troll! Have a nice life little fella!

You keep the country going so you can go on to a website and insult those who justify a terrible practice in a really childish manner. Glad we got that out of the way....idiot.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

See? I can't take you as anything other than an idiot when you resort to mobbing up and trying to get my wikipedia userpage which I've abandoned long ago.

[–] Victorias_Secret 12 years ago

Def Crockett said,

Now, in my opinion, do these pilots "deserve" to be paid more? Yes. But it's irrelevant. The marketplace is what ultimately determines people's salaries, just as it determines the prices of goods and services.

One of the many things wrong with Capitalism. Why defend a system in which people don't get paid what they deserve?

Terry (one of the 99%)
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

[–] Victorias_Secret 12 years ago

damnumalone said,

Yes. Seriously. The relative price of something in society is determined by the price people in society are willing to pay for it. Sorry but that's life. I want a coke I may pay up to $5 for it if I'm thirsty enough. Will I pay $500 for it? No.

The "people" don't decide on a pilot's salary. The airlines do. Airlines that pay too low a salary discourage better people from taking these jobs. I don't want to ride in airplanes if unqualified pilots are flying them. Do you?

Terry (one of the 99%)
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 12 years ago

he "people" don't decide on a pilot's salary. The airlines do. Airlines that pay too low a salary discourage better people from taking these jobs. I don't want to ride in airplanes if unqualified pilots are flying them. Do you?

Actually, yes, they do. Pilots are people and they chose that profession relative to other professions. As a result, they choose whether they want to be paid as pilots at a rate that, as you point out, is offered by airlines, or, whether they want to do something else at a different salary. Like I said, there are market forces in place that lead to price setting for wages. Now people who are qualified pilots are likely to choose that job over a restaurant manager position, but that is mainly because they get more money for it (although, as I previously mentioned, other factors come into play when a person decides to take one job over another, such as perceived status in society, hours to be worked, dirtiness of job, etc etc etc... money alone is not the only reason most people take most jobs. A qualified pilot offered the same money to be a restaurant maanger is likely to still be a pilot, because it is likely they will place an intrinsic value on being able to tell their friends they are a pilot, rather than tell their friends they are a restaurant manager).

You have pointed out that pilots need to be 'qualified'. That is correct, but it doesn't disprove anything I said.

What I left out, mainly because it wasn't entirely relevant was to say there are what economists like to call 'barriers to entry' in the airline industry that inhibit unqualified people from becoming pilots. To be a pilot you need training, which you're likely to get either in the military, due to lessons you've paid for yourself, or as part of a training program with an airline, or a combination of the 3. Because such experience is hard to come by, this creates a limit on the number of qualified pilots that are available at any one time, which means that airlines are likely to compete with each other and pay pilots higher salaries due to the limit in the number of pilots available. The pool of restaurant managers however is much higher as the qualifications needed to be a restaurant manager are much lower... often times it is just length of time working that enables you to get that job. Therefore, the size of the worker pool is much larger, meaning that businesses do not have to compete so hard against each other to get workers, leading to lower wages as a result.

My point related to the relative salary of a pilot vs relative salary of fast food manager and you didn't draw any reference to this in pointing out the 'flaw' in my argument, which is problematic, because I think you need to have a full understanding of what I was saying before attempting to rebut it.

What pilots are getting paid has signifcantly less to do with the 'value' on the job that society places and more to do with it being simple function of the size of the available labour pool of qualified pilots vs the number of pilots required to fill airline jobs, when compared against the size of the labour pool of people available to fill a restaurant manager position vs the number of restaurant manager jobs available. Supply and demand, not 'value placed on by society', or probably more accurately, value placed on a job by society is a function of supply and demand, rather than wages being a function of how important your job is to society. If this wasn't true, then surely hookers and strippers would be paid less than what they actually make????

"I am Jack's cold sweat."

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 13 years ago

I wish you were dead. Your mere existence is an embarrassment to mankind.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What a moron. You are literally too stupid for me to be able to express in words. I don't wish you were dead though because frankly, I don't know you. I really just feel sorry for you. You must be flat out working out which leg to put into which side of your pants in the morning. Does someone do it for you?

"I am Jack's cold sweat."

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Now that I think about it, you really deserve death too. The fact you're an Australian makes me embarrassed.

"HAHAHAHA" indeed. This is a cruel joke.

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

And yet, here I sit, understanding the laws of supply and demand. How many new fast-food restaurants have popped up over the past ten years?

How many airlines?

When a fast-food manager does exceptionally well, it shows up on the bottom line in the form of profits.

When a pilot does exceptionally well, the best you can get is an undamaged airplane and breathing customers. Pilots have minimal effect on the bottom line with regards to profits.

With airline pilots, the market is saturated. many airlines aren't even hiring at all, trying to utilize the many pilots they already have. In fact, most pilots on the job spend far less time flying planes and spend far more time doing pre-flight checks and waiting around for a flight.

Fast-food managers are in the thick of it. Keeping the business alive and profitable. They often trim back others' hours and pitch in themselves just to make better use of the business' assets.

I'm not trying to denigrate pilots. I'm simply pointing out the logical reasons as to why a fast-food manager would and should be paid more in a free market. Of course, if it were a free market, the airlines would be far less encumbered by the government and would likely be far more free to pay their pilots accordingly. Perhaps we'd even see a greater demand for them overall.

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- NOW in Canada
Coming soon to DVD!

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

It's only that this board is almost completely full with brainwashed simpletons, who believe what they're told, that you aren't made a complete mockery of for your claims.

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

And with what do you defend your claims? Why should pilots be paid more than McDonald's managers? or bus drivers?

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- NOW in Canada
Coming soon to DVD!

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Maybe I should, because arguing with idiots like you is a lose-lose situation.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Yes, because telling me to quit was certainly insightful...

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

Because your justifications for everything make me sick. God, you should be ashamed with yourself.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 13 years ago

What do you even mean "describe how you would go about accomplishing this"? You mean if I were a pilot or if I were in some position of power to do something?

You were justifying and condoning this, hence why I called you and the others "stupid". Don't tell me you weren't either. You justify everything that is wrong with your country, don't you?

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 13 years ago

Okay, Aidan, it's put-up-or-shut-up time. You have an answer for me, or are you just going to continue mindlessly ranting and repeating yourself?

I think he's almost certainly going to just sit there and repeat himself. Pretty sure he has to be just trolling because there is no one who is that dumb that they couldn't understand what you are asking by now.

The fact he never even considered the supply and demand argument was enough for me to just put him on ignore.

"I am Jack's cold sweat."

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 13 years ago

Pilots deserve a high pay. They transport people over long distances and are responsible for their lives. It's not as simple as "they can love it or leave it" you childish zombie. We need pilots.

OMG.... Are you seriously pursuing this line? You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about and you should stop talking now if you are not trolling. I've just come into this and you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I personally think you should be ashamed too.

"I am Jack's cold sweat."

[–] stanleygoodspeed99 13 years ago

When we get pilots paid worse than fast food managers, as Michael Moore said, it's pretty terrible.

and thus ends the worst example of inequality ever....

seriously.

I'm guessing someone who comes out with such a poor example is a huge supporter of the 'Occupy' movement.

"I am Jack's cold sweat."

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

Exactly, aleisterhigen. It's just so much simpler for some people to point at others on the playground and say "he's got two cookies and I don't have any!". Of course, they expect the "teachers" to take his cookies away because it's not fair to the rest of the class.
And that's how the last two generations were raised, it seems.

It's not about defending rich people. It's about fighting oppression. When our government oversteps its bounds, either by oppressing rich people, poor people or allowing the rich to oppress the poor - or vice-versa, that's the oppression we need to fight.

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- NOW in Canada
Coming soon to DVD!

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Victorias_Secret 12 years ago

you've got poor people with cell phones in America. You have people in America who don't go to free food pantries available every single day. I know it's not all jet skis and vacations to Martha's Vinyard, but it's not exactly the Grapes of Wrath either.

You've got cops breaking into poor people's houses and shooting sleeping children. (This happened in Detroit.) You've got prisons for profit where mostly Black and Latino men are routed into modern-day slavery. You just don't know what goes on around, do you? As for the poor folks with cell phones, many of them don't have homes. I'd rather have a home than a cell phone. How about you?

If you saw the movie, you would remember how hospitals dump sick indigents on Skid Row. People who are sick and helpless and homeless just being dumped like so much rubbish because they can't pay for the medical care they need. That the reality of poverty, not cell phones.

Terry (one of the 99%)
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

[–] Victorias_Secret 12 years ago

This is not the rich, this is the government.

The government is owned by the rich.

it's also true that it's pretty much impossible to get anywhere in American politics without having money or access to money, but the problem is still with the government, not the size of someone's bank book by definition.

And how do you figure that? You just admitted only the rich can "get anywhere in American politics."

It's funny, all the protests of the OWS are about the evil corporations and greedy banks, etc., but these are all entities working within the confines of the law.

Good grief, man! The laws are written by the rich for their own benefit. Of course, they operate "within the confines of the law." Why wouldn't they since the law is for their own benefit.

And if that's under disagreement take out a class action lawsuit and sue the person or people you say are "illegally" doing anything. If you have a problem with the law, change the law, don't take it out on the person who benefits from it.

Oh, brother! If the law is slanted to make the already rich come up on top, what good is that? Look at BP. They wrecked massive destruction on the Gulf and the people are trying go get compensation. It's like pulling teeth. BP should have had their assets seized by the government for the destruction they have caused. But the government will never do that because the government belongs to the rich. As for changing the law, see above.

Terry (one of the 99%)
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

[–] Victorias_Secret 13 years ago

I agree with you, Aidan.

I am sick of reactionary American "thinking." Moore rocks.

Terry
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

[–] gabby_bm 13 years ago

They condemn the greed of the rich and in the same sentence, they want to take their wealth away from them.

It's only right to condemn greed if someone has more than you.

"MOM! Jimmy got more candy than I did! He needs to share!"
"Jimmy, share with Timmy. It's not his fault he got tired and went trick-or-treating to less houses than you did."
"Mom, that's not fair!"
"Jimmy, you're lucky I let you have any candy at all!"

Ahhh....the social contract.

"Atlas Shrugged- Part 1"- Coming soon to Canada and on DVD!

[–] hardwood53 13 years ago

It is pretty drastic when people have to violate eviction orders to have a place to live. Tent cities are pretty drastic too. Since they don't show it on film, there would be no convincing you that some have it worse than that. There are no daily food banks outside the big cities. Since it does not make the news or documentaries it would be difficult to explain to someone who has their head where yours is, but people are actually dying excruciatingly slow deaths over this mess. The argument over what is Legal may cut a lot of ice for some. However, one point of the documentary is the difference between what is right and what is legal. I don't see Government being able to fix this mess soon enough to save a lot of lives. Even if we got compassionate, able leadership tomorrow the wheels of Government turn slow. So it is up to you and me to salvage what we can of our own communities. Too many people use credit to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like.

[–] Quanfa 13 years ago

"So it is up to you and me to salvage what we can of our own communities."

I agree 100%. But some feel like it's not up to them, it's up to the government, which is kind of them, but on a broader scale with far more paperwork. Used to, way before the welfare state came in and made generations of people slaves to their own government, it was locals who took care of their own. To this day churches around the country still do this, even outside of the big cities. That used to be the only way to organize help for the needy outside of individuals panhandling on street corners.

But it isn't really that simple. Quick fixes are just that. Welfare is a quick fix just like food pantries. At some point a life has to be turned around. Some feel like that can only come from the individual himself. Some feel like tough love may be the catalyst. Some feel like we should just keep giving in the hope that the person wakes up one day with the motivation to help himself.

I don't have the answers, but I don't believe throwing money at the problem through redistribution of wealth or generation after generation of welfare addiction is the answer.

[–] Democracy_is_Intransitive 13 years ago

I don't wish to defend the rich, i think many that are rich have earned their money illegitimately by using the government to protect themselves from competition. It's reasonable to say it's unhealthy to have the degree of wealth stratification we do and thus i want a a higher degree of economic rationality so those that benefit society obtain PROPORTIONAL compensation for their individual contributions to society. By having a powerful State you give wealth seeking entities tremendous latitude to EXIT the market and capture political institutions and this is the primary cause of stratification. Fundamentally we need more effective ways of interfacing with our regulatory institutions, democracy doesn't provide this in any form.

[–] Quanfa 13 years ago

"...it's unhealthy to have the degree of wealth stratification we do and thus i want a a higher degree of economic rationality so those that benefit society obtain PROPORTIONAL compensation for their individual contributions to society."

So who's going to determine that proportional compensation? You?

It's like you're saying - it's all unfair and someone needs to do something about it, just not a powerful government. But why is it unfair? At what degree does wealth become unhealthy? And who are you to say what that might be?

[–] Democracy_is_Intransitive 13 years ago

I never said wealth is unhealthy, but i think that the current paradigm is not optimal. As F.A. Hayek said, knowledge is not centralized so the more dispersed power is the better. I think my initial post reveals why i disaprove of the government transferring wealth around or determining who owes who what via methods like social justice or central planning that stems from the public choice school of economics.

Proportional compensation should be determined by the market.

[–] welshNick 12 years ago

Why should somebody who works hard at school and makes something of himself then get told he has to give his wealth away ?

I tried to emply a warehouseman recently. I went through 8 people before I found one who didn't go sick, didn't need to leave early, wasn't always on the phone and wasn't afraid of getting his hands dirty.

Too many people are afraid of hard work and think they are entitled to everything. Hard work brings reward.

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 12 years ago

Are you talking about tax? Because if you are, you're an idiot.

All I would require for a good life is around $50000 a year. The fact you feel people should have every right to be like Bill Gates and lessen the quality of the people who work hard to get him there is appalling.

[–] Democracy_is_Intransitive 12 years ago

If bill gates actually generates that value himself then i don't necessarily have a problem with bill gates having that amount of wealth. I don't see how the tax system effectively internalizes individual's actual day to day contributions to the economy if we are to talk about the progressive tax structure.

If a millionaire makes their money by lobbying to prevent domestic competition and corner's the market makes the same amount as a millionaire who makes their wealth outside of political market channels delivering valuable services to others there is an inherent structural problem there regarding equal outcomes. Since not all of Gate's employee's will generate identical effort some system has to be in place to take measurments of effort, output, skill that occur hour by hour. The tax structure doesn't do this nor does the welfare state.

If somebody does generate tremendous value for others in society they should be rewarded proportionally regardless if man's subjective wealth cap for himself is 50k.

Not everybody is going to output identical effort therefore some system has to provide a means of surveillance to ascertain what their level of reward should be.

[–] Kawada_Kira 13 years ago

It's the world's largest case of Stockholm Syndrome.

"Killing is murder unless it is done in large numbers to the sound of trumpets."
- Voltaire

[–] scottishjimmy 12 years ago

What's the point in society if you don't want to have a safety net to look after the sick and the disabled - people that cannot work. I'm sure some people on here like to think that the answer is to have them homeless and on the streets. Stop moaning about the 'social contract' just because you pay taxes. If I was a rich man staying in America i'd be screaming blue bloody murder because my taxes are not paying for an NHS system or some sort of welfare for the sick, the disabled or not going to a startup for people with no money to start a business.

Without taxes we would be living in a feudal economy where the power goes from the ballot to the marketplace where the only people who can call themselves citizens are the people that are born into riches. Does that sound like a civil society to you? Does that sound 'democratic'? Of course it isn't.

If America wants to call itself a civilized nation of free thinkers then it's about time it caught up with the western world. If you don't want a civilized society or don't want healthcare, education or benefits for the sick and the disabled then you should look at the country of Zimbabwe as a role model for America.

[–] welshNick 12 years ago

Jimmy,

If you're from Scotland, your whole country has been sponging off England for decades. You get better heathcare than England all courtesy of the previous government and the English taxpayer.

In the US we all pay our taxes but are given the choice if we want to take out insurance for healthcare. Personally I do. When I lived and worked in London I took out private medical insurance as I didn't trust the NHS.

Now if you have been to a US hospital and an NHS one believe me you can tell the difference, give me the US system every time. We live in a capitalist society, not a communist one, there will always be winners and losers.

[–] scottishjimmy 12 years ago

What a ridiculous statement.

England have been milking Scottish oil for decades and not paying Scotland its fair share in public spending or in business investment.

I pay tax as well WelshNick and in the UK (including Scotland) you can have the option to go private too. The only difference is that the private option (BUPA) is regulated by the charity "The Red Cross" so that they don't charge extravagent amounts and the private option actually regulates how much they charge so there isn't a 'blank paycheque'. Both private doctors and NHS doctors are well paid and with both systems you get a choice of doctor.

When my mother had to get her chest checked out in the middle of the night she went to A&E and was checked out straightaway in case it was something serious. She got all the scans and saw an expert consultant.

I take it you don't have experience of the NHS which is of high quality. Just ask "Stephen Hawkings" the physicist who praises the NHS for giving him high quality care that he relied on for most of his life without any cost (only to be lied about in an insurance magazine that he would have been killed by a 'death panel' in the NHS). All NHS doctors swear an oath that they will defend the right to life for every individual. The private option in the US is broken because healthcare insurance companies are going hammer and tongs to stop people from using their healthcare insurance by coming up with loophole after loophole. So you may be insured but it is a parachute bag with nothing in it and you only find out when you open the bag after jumping out of the plane (when it's too late).

I've been to a US hospital, I paid about 100 dollars to be seen (even though I had travel insurance) and about 100 dollars on medicine and I could already tell it was more 'office based' and had a distinct lack of emergency equipment in it.

By hinting that NHS is somehow 'Communism' shows a complete lack of understanding about the healthare system in the UK. The only reason that the Scottish healthcare system is better is because of the present Scottish Govt who have NHS care in their powers - they don't give in to private interest. SNP believe that people shouldn't make massive profits over illness and misfortune. It's not the same in England where far more private companies have moved into the NHS and make loads of money from the tax payer because they are scrimping on their commitment to spend so to have a high quality NHS.

[–] troika19 11 years ago

Anyone calling himself welshnick (I'm Welsh) taking pops at Scotland is a troll, an idiot or both.

Or a bitter Tory voter.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] troika19 11 years ago

The sad truth is the whole system is rigged from top to bottom and nothing is going to change that.