Why Severus Snape WAS a Brave, Moral, and Great Man - Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part 2 (2011) Discussion

[–] Denny222 9 years ago

1. There's nothing wrong with hating an 11 year old because of who his father was? Seriously? It wasn't James. It was an innocent kid. So he was good at sports. Snape was jealous of an 11 year old? Pathetic.

2. He joined an organization that's goal was to massacre thousands of people. And now you're comparing being gay with murder and torture? What's wrong with you?

3. Soooo if Lily was never in danger, he'd have kept on working for Voldemort. If Voldemort chose Neville, Snape would have let an innocent baby die.

4. Yes, he did a lot of good during the series.

5. LOL, this is ridiculous. Snape was definitely incredibly brave. But the bravest who ever lived? Absurd. Many others risked their lives and died to fight Voldemort too. Lupin went undercover with werewolves who would have killed him if they knew his true allegiance. Why isn't he the bravest to ever live? Harry walked into the forest thinking he was going to die and there was not a single thing he could do.

Snape is an outstanding character, and one of biggest successes of the series. But he wasn't nearly as good as you make him out to be. Your first two points make me question your morals, since you defend bullying a kid because of his dad and he's athletic.

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

1. Snape looked at Harry and saw all the qualities of James. He knew that Harry would turn out just like his father, and James had been terrible to Snape.

2. Snape joined the Death Eaters at Voldemort's request. He was a double agent.

3. Because Lily was in danger, he joined the Death Eaters to work for Voldemort.

4. Finally, some sense.

5. Snape is one of the bravest people in the entire series. It's not coincidence that the series ends with Harry telling his son (who is named after both Dumbledore and Snape) that Snape was one of the bravest people he ever knew

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

1. Snape looked at Harry and saw all the qualities of James. He knew that Harry would turn out just like his father, and James had been terrible to Snape.

As seen through the eyes of Snape, who hated James for stealing away Lily.

Remember the scene where James deliberately knocks Snape's books to the floor and laughs at him. Then, later, we are shown what really happened- James accidentally knocks Snape's books out of his hands, thinks about stopping to help, but doesn't.

Snape exaggerates James Potter's faults because he hated him (over Lily) from day 1.

2. Snape joined the Death Eaters at Voldemort's request. He was a double agent.

3. Because Lily was in danger, he joined the Death Eaters to work for Voldemort.

These two seem contradictory. Perhaps apt for a complicated character like Snape. I think Snape did want to protect Lily, but he also had an affinity for the Dark Arts and a dislike for Muggles (due to Lily's family).

I suppose it goes without saying that a "double agent" is required to be brave. You are in constant danger of being discovered and killed by both sides. But I think Snape enjoyed tricking both sides, both of whom he hated. Playing his enemies against each other must have been pure fun for Snape.

And in the end, if all had gone according to plan, Dumbledore would be dead. Voldemort would be dead. Harry Potter would be dead. Who would be left to take over? Severus Snape himself.

Before he was killed, Snape had already risen to Hogwarts Headmaster AND second-in-command of Death Eaters. Nowhere to go from there but up, except for a stupid Voldemort who unexpectedly killed Snape with a snake for no real reason. If that hadn't happened, what WOULD have happened after Voldemort was dead? The Half Blood Prince could take his place. (not a coincidence that Snape gives himself a fictional title, just as Lord Voldemort did for himself).

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

"Snape exaggerates James Potter's faults because he hated him (over Lily) from day 1."

I don't remember seeing the same scene from another point of view and seeing that James wasn't bullying Snape. Even if James didn't bully Snape (which I choose to believe, since it makes James less saint-like and a better character as someone who became a better person in order to earn Lily's love) that is how Snape remembers it. I don't think he's exaggerating it since that is how he remembers it.

"These two seem contradictory. Perhaps apt for a complicated character like Snape. I think Snape did want to protect Lily, but he also had an affinity for the Dark Arts and a dislike for Muggles (due to Lily's family)."

Snape was interested in the dark arts, but there was nothing to ever show that he wanted to join Voldemort. He was loyal to Dumbledore. But then when he learned about the prophecy that Lily would be killed, Dumbledore asked him to be a double agent so Voldemort would trust him and he could (a) help Dumbledore, and (b) save Lily from the prophecy. If it wasn't for the prophecy, Snape probably wouldn't have agreed to be a double agent.

"except for a stupid Voldemort who unexpectedly killed Snape with a snake for no real reason."

I thought this made perfect sense from Voldemort's point of view. He had the elder wand, but it was not working 100% for him. He knew that Dumbledore was its previous owner, and as far as he knew Snape was loyal to him and had killed Dumbledore for him, so he had to kill Snape in order to take ownership of the wand. He didn't know that Snape was really Dumbledore's agent and that he only killed him because it was a plan both him and Dumbledore agreed to, and he didn't know that Draco had disarmed Dumbledore before Snape killed him. So he never knew that he had to kill Draco to become the wand's owner - he thought he had to kill Snape.

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

I don't remember seeing the same scene from another point of view and seeing that James wasn't bullying Snape.

I can't find the first clip where James deliberately knocks Snape's books down. But the follow-up scene is found here:at 2:25 of this scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHolRZeQNG4
This time we see it was more accidental.

Even if James didn't bully Snape (which I choose to believe, since it makes James less saint-like and a better character as someone who became a better person in order to earn Lily's love) that is how Snape remembers it. I don't think he's exaggerating it since that is how he remembers it.

There is little doubt that James DID bully Snape. But how did it start?

Consider this quote from HBP:

“‘Well,’ said Lupin slowly, ‘Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?’”

This quote appears in context of discussing Snape's personally invented spell, Sectumsempra. This is a gruesome spell which hacks bloody gashes all across an opponent's body. The disgusting nature of this spell MUST reflect on what Rowling REALLY thinks of Snape and his deepest nature.

James should not, of course, have bullied Snape. Definitely a black mark on his character. But James' reasons for disliking Snape (Snape's jealousy over Lily, Snape using curses on James, and Snape's deep immersion in the Dark Arts) were valid.

Like Slughorn's memories, with Snape we are clearly dealing with edited memories. We are shown in detail how James and his friends bullied Snape. But are we shown any memory examples of how Snape bullied others? Of course not. So can we assume Snape never bullied anyone when he was a student? Nope. Given Snape's adult behavior, we can be quite sure student Snape bullied anyone weaker than he was at Hogwarts. This was probably the cause of the posse from Gryffindor going after this guy to teach him a lesson.

Snape was interested in the dark arts, but there was nothing to ever show that he wanted to join Voldemort.

Except the fact that he did join Voldemort. Kinda strong evidence, I think.

He was loyal to Dumbledore.

I strongly disagree. He only went to Dumbledore AFTER he learned Lily's life was in danger. Snape learned about the prophesy and the Potters' death sentence BECAUSE he was already close to Voldemort.

Notice how Voldemort treats the Potters differently in their death scene. He kills James without a thought. But Voldemort tries to avoid killing Lily. He orders her out of the way. Only when she refuses to move does he kill her. The only explanation for the different treatment of James and Lily Potter is that Voldemort was trying to satisfy the wishes of his most loyal ally, Severus Snape.

Look at all the scenes we see between Dumbledore and Snape. Listen to how they talk to each other. It is constant tension, mistrust and needling between them with absolutely no hint of a trusting friendship. They are partners of convenience only. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. But they are clearly NOT friends.

As seen in this video clip. Every word spoken between them is tense and combative:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr3LNY2B-gU

"except for a stupid Voldemort who unexpectedly killed Snape with a snake for no real reason."

I thought this made perfect sense from Voldemort's point of view. He had the elder wand, but it was not working 100% for him. He knew that Dumbledore was its previous owner, and as far as he knew Snape was loyal to him and had killed Dumbledore for him, so he had to kill Snape in order to take ownership of the wand.

That may have been Voldemort's point of view but I am calling it a stupid point of view. No wand master ever said that killing the owner of a wand forced the wand to become yours. In fact no wand master ever said that disarming a wizard forced a wand to change owner. Those are just rules that fools (like Voldemort and Harry) made up on their own. They don't understand wands and they don't really listen when a wand master tells them something.

The person who DOES understand wands is Ollivander. What he says is that disarming another wizard MAY lead to a change in ownership. But what Ollivander says firmly (to Harry) and without quibble is that "the wand chooses the wizard". Wizards simply do not get to choose, in any way- by killing or disarming- which wand will choose them. It entirely is up to the wand.

Notice that Harry grabs a few wands out of Draco's hands. One of them (Draco's) then choses Harry as its new master. The other one (Bellatrix's) does not. Wands have minds of their own. Ollivander makes that crystal clear.

The Elder Wand made up its own mind and chose who IT wanted as owner. Nothing Voldemort could do would force that (or any) wand to become his. And that's one of the ways Voldemort was a fool (there are others).

So he never knew that he had to kill Draco to become the wand's owner

Killing Draco would not have made Voldemort master of the Elder Wand for the reasons explained above. We know the Elder Wand chose Dumbledore as a master. And we know it chose Harry Potter as a master. That's all we know. (the stuff about Draco came entirely from Harry who simply didn't listen to what Ollivander told him about wands).

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

Lupin was James friend, so we can hardly consider him an impartial observer. Of course he's gonna takes James' side and say that James was at fault in regards to bullying Snape.

"Except the fact that he did join Voldemort. Kinda strong evidence, I think." Yes, at Dumbledore's request, because of the prophecy, to save Lily.

"I strongly disagree." Snape was the one who was the MOST loyal to Dumbledore. Again, he only joined Voldemort because Dumbledore asked him to. Yes he wanted to save Lily, but Dumbledore assured him that doing this would save her.

"That may have been Voldemort's point of view but I am calling it a stupid point of view. No wand master ever said that killing the owner of a wand forced the wand to become yours. In fact no wand master ever said that disarming a wizard forced a wand to change owner. Those are just rules that fools (like Voldemort and Harry) made up on their own." I'm pretty sure this is stated as an official magic rule in one of the books. I will get back to you when I re-read all of the books in a few years (lol).

"Notice that Harry grabs a few wands out of Draco's hands. One of them (Draco's) then choses Harry as its new master. The other one (Bellatrix's) does not. Wands have minds of their own. Ollivander makes that crystal clear."

Harry disarms Draco at Malfoy Manor, knocking Draco's wand out of his hands with magic. He therefore disarmed Draco, becoming the master of his wand, and by proxy, the Elder Wand, since at that point, Draco was the master of that wand too (although he didn't know it).

"Killing Draco would not have made Voldemort master of the Elder Wand for the reasons explained above. We know the Elder Wand chose Dumbledore as a master. And we know it chose Harry Potter as a master." The wand chose Dumbledore, but once it had chose him, it belonged to him or whoever disarmed him in magical combat. That was Draco. So the wand never *chose* Harry as its master, Draco became its master when he disarmed Dumbledore, and Harry became its master when he disarmed Draco.

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

"Lupin was James friend, so we can hardly consider him an impartial observer. Of course he's gonna takes James' side and say that James was at fault in regards to bullying Snape."

Snape was not an innocent victim. He gave as much as he got from, especially from James. During the only scene we see in the books where James bullied Snape, Snape's response was to try to kill James. Also, realize that this was not Snape's worst memory because he was being bullied, but because he lost Lily's friendship after calling her a Mudblood.

"Again, he only joined Voldemort because Dumbledore asked him to."

Snape joined Voldy because he wanted to. This was right out of Hogwarts and was a DE of his own volition for about two years until Voldy threatened to kill Lily and her family. We don't know anything of Snape's torn loyalties during the time between Aug 1980 and Oct 31, 1981 (the dates when Voldy chose Harry as the boy mentioned in the prophecy and when he found the Potters). How excited was he to still be a DE then? Nothing was ever said. What specifically was he doing for Dumbledore? We don't know.

Snape did act as a double agent after Voldy's return on Dumbledore's orders.

Bob

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

"During the only scene we see in the books where James bullied Snape, Snape's response was to try to kill James" So when James bullied Snape, Snape fought back. Wow, Snape is totally the instigator in that situation. Wait, he wasn't, James was. Yes, Snape tried to kill James but he hated James, who in his mind had stolen Lily from him and was bullying him. He shouldn't have tried to kill him, but the response is understandable as he saw James as everything he hated.

"Snape joined Voldy because he wanted to." No, I don't think so. He joined Voldemort at Dumbledore's orders because of the prophecy - he wanted to save Lily.

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[–] Arnold25 8 years ago

HE TOLD VOLDEMORT ABOUT THE PROPHECY YOU LITTLE RETARD.

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

"So when James bullied Snape, Snape fought back."

That was one instance where James instigated. This happened five ears into their feud. It was a mutual feud where each instigated something with the other.

I view the Snape/James feud as similar to the Harry/Draco feud with Harry taking Snape's place and Draco taking James' place. Both Snape and Harry came from unloving homes while both James and Draco came from rich pureblood homes where each was basically spoiled. Both sets of enemies were at odds from day one and both Draco and James expressed disdain for another house.

Both sets of boys never lost an opportunity to do something to the other and even reveled in when the other was in trouble, especially if they themselves caused it.

"He joined Voldemort at Dumbledore's orders because of the prophecy - he wanted to save Lily."

Snape had joined Voldy and become a DE right out of Hogwarts. He was at the Hog's Head on Voldy's orders when he overheard the prophecy. He rushed to tell Voldy about the prophecy and when Voldy decided it was Harry the prophecy referred to, Snape went to Dumbledore. Both the movie and book show that Snape was a DE. In the book, the meeting when Snape told Dumbledore about the prophecy,Dumbledore asked of Snape, "What request could a Death Eater make of me?" (DH p 677).

Snape joined Dumbledore because of the prophecy, to save Lily.

Bob

Bob

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

Yes, Snape tried to kill James but he hated James, who in his mind had stolen Lily from him and was bullying him.

Lily wasn't dating James yet when that happened -that's why James says he'll leave Snape alone if Lily will go out with him. Lupin and Sirius tell Harry that is was years later once James's head had gone down that Lily dates him.

He shouldn't have tried to kill him, but the response is understandable as he saw James as everything he hated.

The spell James used on Snape was a common prank -they say at one point that everyone was doing it to each other. If you think trying to murder someone is an understandable response to a common prank we'll have to disagree. We are also told that James hated the dark arts so Snape could be said to represent everything James hatted but he didn't try to kill him.

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

"The spell James used on Snape was a common prank "

Not only that, but it was a spell created by Snape himself. Somehow others found out about it (obviously by Snape himself) and it became the prank spell everyone used.

Bob

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

Oh right, good point. If Snape had never used it on anyone James wouldn't have known it to use on Snape.

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

I don't think Lupin's comment can be ignored.

“‘Well,’ said Lupin slowly, ‘Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?’”

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

Which is why I said it was a mutual feud, not Snape as the innocent victim to James' bully.

It started on their first meting on the Hogwarts Express and continued throughout their time at Hogwarts.

Bob

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

Which is why I said it was a mutual feud, not Snape as the innocent victim to James' bully.

Yes, we are in agreement. But I felt it was important to include the Lupin quote.

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

Lupin was James friend, so we can hardly consider him an impartial observer. Of course he's gonna takes James' side and say that James was at fault in regards to bullying Snape.

Yes, they were friends but that doesn't make Lupin a complete liar. Who is more biased, Lupin in his memories of James or Snape in his memories of himself?

You may interpret it as you like. But I am confident in assuming that Snape hit James Potter with a fair share of curses along with others at Hogwarts. Did we see these curses in Snape's memories? Of course not, but that hardly means it didn't happen. (not that this excuses James' bullying. It doesn't.)

"Except the fact that he did join Voldemort. Kinda strong evidence, I think." Yes, at Dumbledore's request, because of the prophecy, to save Lily.

We'll have to disagree. My understanding is that Snape was a Death Eater first and only later turned to Dumbledore when Lily was in danger.

"I strongly disagree." Snape was the one who was the MOST loyal to Dumbledore.

Again, we'll have to disagree. I again point to how adversarial Dumbledore and Snape spoke to each other. And Snape eventually revealed his true loyalty- it wasn't to Dumbledore but to Lily (and her memory).

I'm pretty sure this is stated as an official magic rule in one of the books.

You can check. But I think you'll find the movies quote the books word for word on this issue. Ollivander says disarming someone MAY cause the wand to change allegiance.

Harry and Voldemort each think killing or disarming forces a wand to change ownership but this is in direct contradiction to Ollivander, who says wands have minds of their own and who says very, very clearly that "the wand chooses the wizard" not the other way around.

Harry disarms Draco at Malfoy Manor, knocking Draco's wand out of his hands with magic.

Nah, he just grabs them with his hands, giving a few grunts at the effort. You can see it at 1:45 in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Azb2kVD0aU

He therefore disarmed Draco, becoming the master of his wand

But he grabbed Bellatrix's wand at the same time and didn't become its master. Why? Because the wand chooses the wizard. So Ollivander explains. He even calls Draco's wand "reasonably pliant", while he calls Bellatrix's wand "unyielding".

You can see it all in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IaXJSJ6sIQ

The wand chose Dumbledore, but once it had chose him, it belonged to him or whoever disarmed him in magical combat.

I disagree, based on what the expert Ollivander says. Wands have minds of their own. Wands choose the wizard. Thus, wands only change ownership if they feel like it.

Voldemort could have killed or disarmed anyone he liked, including Dumbledore, Snape, Draco or Harry and the Elder Wand still would not have chosen him. Wands do what they want to do. Voldemort held the Elder Wand in his hand for weeks or months and it still didn't choose him as its owner. We can be confident it never would. Why? Because the Elder Wand clearly didn't WANT Voldemort as its owner. You can't make a wand choose someone it doesn't like. We saw that in the very first movie (in Ollivander's shop). The wand chooses the wizard, not the other way around.

This may be a new way to look at the Harry Potter story but for me it is the only scenario which makes sense, given all that we are told about wands.

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

"Yes, they were friends but that doesn't make Lupin a complete liar. Who is more biased, Lupin in his memories of James or Snape in his memories of himself?" Of course Lupin is going to take James side, he is James' friend, so his version of events is going to line up with James' and make him look good. Lupin is just as biased in his memories of James and Snape is.

"We'll have to disagree. My understanding is that Snape was a Death Eater first and only later turned to Dumbledore when Lily was in danger." Disagree we will. I remember it that Snape joined once he heard the prophecy and realized Lily was in danger, so Dumbledore asked him to join as a double-agent.

"You can check. But I think you'll find the movies quote the books word for word on this issue. Ollivander says disarming someone MAY cause the wand to change allegiance.

Harry and Voldemort each think killing or disarming forces a wand to change ownership but this is in direct contradiction to Ollivander, who says wands have minds of their own and who says very, very clearly that "the wand chooses the wizard" not the other way around."

Pretty sure the book states that a wand belongs to a wizard unless that wizard is disarmed in combat, and then the wand belongs to the winner of that combat. When Ollivander says that wands have minds of their own and they choose the wizard, he is talking about when a wand is unowned and chooses which wizard it belongs to. Once a wand is chosen (or chooses) and belongs to a wizard, it belongs to that wizard only. The wand cannot choose to belong to another wizard just because it feels like it.

"Nah, he just grabs them with his hands, giving a few grunts at the effort."

Because he casts a spell at Draco that knocks the wand out of his hand. He is able to pick up Draco's wand off the floor because he has already disarmed Draco, hence Draco's wand now belonging to Harry.

"But he grabbed Bellatrix's wand at the same time and didn't become its master. Why? Because the wand chooses the wizard. So Ollivander explains. He even calls Draco's wand 'reasonably pliant', while he calls Bellatrix's wand 'unyielding'."

Exactly. He disarmed Draco so his wand now answers to Harry (reasonably pliant). But he did not disarm Bellatrix so that's why her wand still answers to her (unyielding).

"I disagree, based on what the expert Ollivander says. Wands have minds of their own. Wands choose the wizard. Thus, wands only change ownership if they feel like it."

Wands have minds of their own when they are unowned and they choose (or are chosen) by their first master. But once that happens, they belong to that wizard unless that wizard is disarmed in combat and then the wand becomes the property of the wizard that disarmed them.

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[–] Arnold25 8 years ago

You're remembering wrong. DUMBLEDORE SAYS SNAPE WAS WORKING FOR VOLDEMORT ALREADY. THAT IS WHY SNAPE TOLD VOLDEMORT ABOUT THE PROPHECY. Read the books you freak of nature.

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

Lupin is just as biased in his memories of James and Snape is.

So you are saying that Snape's own memories of James Potter can't be trusted as accurate. We can agree on this.

Pretty sure the book states that a wand belongs to a wizard unless that wizard is disarmed in combat, and then the wand belongs to the winner of that combat.

It doesn't. Only Harry thinks that and he is just a kid.

Only Ollivander is presented as a true wand expert (we don't hear anything from Gregorivitch). And Ollivander says a wand MAY change ownership after disarming.

Exactly. He disarmed Draco so his wand now answers to Harry (reasonably pliant). But he did not disarm Bellatrix so that's why her wand still answers to her (unyielding).

Good logic. But that would mean Bellatrix's wand belongs to Ron Weasley, who disarmed her. But Ollivander does not say Bellatrix's wand has changed allegiance (as Draco's did). He says her wand is "unyielding", suggesting that some wands are open to changing owners over a disarming and some are not. They have their own minds is the point that is clearly made, word for word in the scene.

Wands have minds of their own when they are unowned and they choose (or are chosen) by their first master

That point is surely and clearly made in Book 1. The three wands that Harry tries in Ollivander's shop are unowned.

Now ask yourself why Rowling brought Ollivander back for Book 7. All the wands in question already have owners. So surely he is there to help explain how an owned wand can change owners. And the purpose of THAT is to help explain the ownership of the Elder Wand, which is one of the Deathly Hallows, and therefore of major importance. The ownership of Draco's and Bellatrix's wands really has very little to do with the story. They are being used to demonstrate something far more important.

Obviously, the point has been clearly made that Voldemort has jumped to a wrongful conclusion about wands being "forced" to change ownership via murder. Thus Snape is wrongfully killed.

Less obvious, but still clear is that Harry also has jumped to a wrongful conclusion about wands, thinking they are "forced" to change ownership with a disarming. Voldemort is an old experienced wizard and he makes this mistake, so it is understandable that Harry (being so similar in some ways) would make the same mistake as Voldemort. But make it he does.

If you stop, and think and really assess all the disarmings that have taken place over the course of 7 books, you can easily see that wands aren't jumping ship and taking new ownership every time. This page is a good reference http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Disarming_Charm

If that were really a rule then James Potter would have owned Snape's wand back when they were boys. Snape would own Sirius Black's wand in PoA. Harry Potter would own Lucius Malfoy's wand in OotP. Ron Weasley would own Bellatrix's wand, and all of Dumbledore's army would have switched wands as they used Expelliarmus on each other over and over.

It is just silly. Ollivander says a wand MAY change ownership and that's who I believe. Nobody else understands wands as he does. Certainly not Voldemort nor Harry who make up their own rules for wands.

All this is just my own view, of course. I wouldn't expect others to adopt my views. I am just explaining the logic of my views, which is sound.

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[–] Arnold25 8 years ago

Lupin was James friend, so we can hardly consider him an impartial observer. Of course he's gonna takes James' side and say that James was at fault in regards to bullying Snape.

Lupin went out of his way to defend Snape multiple times. When Harry is convinced Snape is bad, Lupin defends him. So you're saying he'll do that, but would lie about events from almost 20 years before?

"Except the fact that he did join Voldemort. Kinda strong evidence, I think." Yes, at Dumbledore's request, because of the prophecy, to save Lily.

"I strongly disagree." Snape was the one who was the MOST loyal to Dumbledore. Again, he only joined Voldemort because Dumbledore asked him to. Yes he wanted to save Lily, but Dumbledore assured him that doing this would save her.

This is an outright lie. You are wrong. Snape joined the Death Eaters right out of Hogwarts, before ever being loyal to Dumbledore. He even told Voldemort about the prophecy that someone would destroy him. He only joined Dumbledore when Voldemort decided to go after the Potters, including Lily who he loved. But he absolutely first joined the Death Eaters on his own.

It's possible you're thinking of when he rejoins them when Voldemort returns. In that case, yes, Dumbledore did tell him to and he was secretly helping Dumbledore. But the first time he joined? Definitely NOT on Dumbledore's orders. That is wrong, plain and simple.

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

"Lupin went out of his way to defend Snape multiple times. When Harry is convinced Snape is bad, Lupin defends him. So you're saying he'll do that, but would lie about events from almost 20 years before?"

Lupin is James friend, but even he realizes that James and his group (Lupin, Sirius, Pettigrew) bullied Snape. Plus he's defending Snape because Dumbledore says Snape is trustworthy, so all the other professors at Hogwarts trust Snape on Dumbledore's say-so.

"This is an outright lie. You are wrong. Snape joined the Death Eaters right out of Hogwarts, before ever being loyal to Dumbledore."

No, it's not. Snape is always a fan of dark magic and the death eaters, but he doesn't join them until he hears about the prophecy and Dumbledore asks him to join them as a double agent. Sorry, but I'm not the one that's wrong.

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[–] Arnold25 8 years ago

Christ you're dumb.

DUMBLEDORE SAYS SNAPE WAS ALREADY WORKING FOR VOLDEMORT WHEN HE HEARD THE PROPHECY. Are you really this stupid? Snape TOLD Voldemort about the prophecy you freaking idiot.

My god. Use your damn head.

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

1. Snape looked at Harry and saw all the qualities of James. He knew that Harry would turn out just like his father, and James had been terrible to Snape.

He didn't know Harry would turn out like James he assumed he would but he was wrong. Harry was never as self-assured or cocky as James was and he was never a bully. Snape couldn't see past his own hatred and judge Harry for himself instead of seeing his father. Dumbledore tells Snape the other teachers report that Harry is modest and likeable.

2. Snape joined the Death Eaters at Voldemort's request. He was a double agent.
3. Because Lily was in danger, he joined the Death Eaters to work for Voldemort.

You have the chronology wrong. Lily accuses Snape of wanting to join the death eaters while they are still in school and he doesn't deny it. While a deatheater he overhears part of Trelawney's prophecy and reports it to Voldemort. Voldemort decides the prophecy refers to Harry and plans to kill his whole family. Snape asks Voldemort to spare Lily (he doesn't mind about Voldemort killing her husband and son)and when that doesn't work he goes to Dumbledore. It's at this point that he becomes a double-agent in exchange for Dumbledore's protection of Lily. There's nothing to indicate Lily was in danger when he originally joined.

5. Snape is one of the bravest people in the entire series. It's not coincidence that the series ends with Harry telling his son (who is named after both Dumbledore and Snape) that Snape was one of the bravest people he ever knew

Yes he's brave. His character flaws and his bravery both exist in him at the same time.

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

"He didn't know Harry would turn out like James he assumed he would but he was wrong. Harry was never as self-assured or cocky as James was and he was never a bully. Snape couldn't see past his own hatred and judge Harry for himself instead of seeing his father. Dumbledore tells Snape the other teachers report that Harry is modest and likeable."

Of course he thought Harry would turn out just like James. He saw Harry when he came to Hogwarts and he was just like James was.

"You have the chronology wrong."

No, I don't think so. Snape is fan of dark magic and the death eaters, but he does not join them until he hears the prophecy and Dumbledore asks him to join.

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[–] Arnold25 8 years ago

You don't have to think. You're wrong. He's right.

You have everyone who replied telling you that you're wrong. Why is that? Because you are. Snape joined Voldemort, and left him when he was going to kill Lilly. That is based FACT. Own up to your error.

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

He saw Harry when he came to Hogwarts and he was just like James was.

Because he was blind to the truth Harry was not just like James he was not full of himself and he was not a bully. This is why Dumbledore tells him what the other teachers report. They are impartial and Snape is not.

No, I don't think so. Snape is fan of dark magic and the death eaters, but he does not join them until he hears the prophecy and Dumbledore asks him to join.

Then reread "The Pensive" chapter in GoF and "The Prince's Tale" in DH. At the trial shown in the Pensive Dumbledore says, "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us..." When Dumbledore and Snape meet in "The Prince's Tale" it is after Snape has told Voldemort about the Prophecy he's afraid Dumbledore will kill him (which he wouldn't be if they were on the same side) and says he has request, Dumbledore says, "And what request could a Death Eater make of me?" He asks Dumbledore to keep Lily safe and Dumbledore asks what he will give him in return, and Snape says, "Anything." It's at this point he starts spying for Dumbledore.

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[–] Denny222 8 years ago

1. Snape looked at Harry and saw all the qualities of James. He knew that Harry would turn out just like his father, and James had been terrible to Snape.

One, that is nonsense. Snape had no idea how Harry would turn out. And as we see, he isn't completely like James. Harry never bullied people. He even became friends with people others considered to be losers. And he was disgusted with how James treated Snape. Two, that still in no way justifies bullying a CHILD. The fact you think it does says a lot about you.

2. Snape joined the Death Eaters at Voldemort's request. He was a double agent.

3. Because Lily was in danger, he joined the Death Eaters to work for Voldemort.

4. Finally, some sense.

Oh, the irony of someone saying. "Finally some sense" when they are wrong. Newsflash. Snape didn't join the Death Eaters to protect Lily. He joined BEFORE she was even in danger. Did you forget Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy to begin with? Why would he do that if he wasn't loyal? Dumbledore even admits, "Snape was still in Voldemort's employment when he told him".

The time line is 1. Snape joins the Death Eaters willingly. 2. He tells Voldemort some hugely important information. 3. He realizes Voldemort will kill all the Potters. 4. THEN he joins Dumbledore.

Understand now? Good.

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[–] hornacek 8 years ago

"One, that is nonsense. Snape had no idea how Harry would turn out. And as we see, he isn't completely like James. Harry never bullied people. He even became friends with people others considered to be losers. And he was disgusted with how James treated Snape. Two, that still in no way justifies bullying a CHILD. The fact you think it does says a lot about you."

No, it's not nonsense. He looked at Harry and everything about him reminded him of how James was at the same age - his looks, his attitude, etc. Harry never bullied people, but Snape was going to wait for that to happen, he made up his mind about Harry right away. And Snape was not "bullying a CHILD" - he was recognizing (in his mind) a bad seed who would grow up to become someone just like his father, who in Snape's mind was a bad person. Snape did not bully Harry, and that fact that you are trying to use this serious real-world problem in this situation says more about you than me.

"Snape didn't join the Death Eaters to protect Lily. He joined BEFORE she was even in danger. Did you forget Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy to begin with? Why would he do that if he wasn't loyal? Dumbledore even admits, 'Snape was still in Voldemort's employment when he told him'."

Sorry, Snape was always a fan of dark magic and the death eaters, but he didn't join them until he heard the prophecy and Dumbledore asked him to.

Understand now? Good.

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[–] Arnold25 8 years ago

Are you retarded? Your defense of Snape is he made a snap decision about an 11 year old boy and that makes it okay to harass and bully him? You're defending Snape abusing a kid. You are messed up. He was absolutely bullying Harry, denying it only makes you look like a bigger moron.

Snape treated Harry like sh-t and it's not justified. End of story.

Sorry, but Dumbledore says Voldemort was working for Voldemort when he heard the prophecy. Book 6, little moron. Go read it. Also in book 4, Dumbledore admits in the memory of Karkaroff on trial that Snape was in Voldemort's employment before turning on him. So many facts prove you wrong.

Tell me this, idiot. Even if you ignore those facts, why would Snape tell Voldemort a prophecy that involved him and if he WASN'T working for him first? Logic, idiot. It's your friend.

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

Harry never bullied people, but Snape was going to wait for that to happen, he made up his mind about Harry right away.

And that's the problem he made up his mind without any facts. There's no good reason to assume Harry is just like James.

Sorry, Snape was always a fan of dark magic and the death eaters, but he didn't join them until he heard the prophecy and Dumbledore asked him to.

Understand now? Good.

The facts have been listed in a number of posts already - it is you who are ignoring them not everyone else who is failing to understand.

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[–] jimmy-crowley74 9 years ago

Never said being gay was a bad thing. Could you highlight where I said that?

Yes, Snape was cruel to Harry. He's a human. Flawed. I guess you can only get behind perfect anti-heroes

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[–] Denny222 9 years ago

People are attracted to all types of immoral things.

And then you mentioned homosexuality.

LOL, too bad that's what you said in your post pal. You DEFENDED Snape bullying and harassing an 11 year old. You stuck up for him, you said anyone would do the same. That is what I'm talking about genius. You were saying his treatment of Harry was understandable. It wasn't. And that has nothing to do with how I view him as a character. So your nonsense that I need anti hero's to be perfect is wrong and ridiculous.

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[–] jimmy-crowley74 9 years ago

Immorality and homosexuality were two different topics. Keep vilifying Snape for hating the son of a man he hated

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[–] Denny222 9 years ago

See? This is why I'm questioning your morals. You think harassing and being cruel to a kid is okay because of who his dead father was.

If you think that's okay, you have problems.

Why can't you just admit your hero is a great character who did a lot of good things l, but did some pretty bad things too? That too much for you to admit?

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[–] jimmy-crowley74 9 years ago

I admitted the very thing. He is the epitome of an anti-hero.

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[–] Denny222 9 years ago

And yet you defend him treating Harry like sh-t and being so cruel to him. And you act like it's normal to bully a teenager because you hated their dad.

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[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jimmy-crowley74 9 years ago

"Normal"? I don't know what's normal. Understandable? Yes.

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[–] Denny222 9 years ago

Understandable to not like Harry, sure. Understandable to be cruel and bully him? Nope. Your justifying legitimately awful behavior. There's no defense or excuse for him to immediately bully Harry from the first day because of James. None.

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[–] Clusium 9 years ago

When I read Snape's backstory in DH, I came to the opinion that Snape was ultimately responsible for the rift between Lily & Petunia, which ultimately led to Petunia's later abuse of Harry. I felt that if Snape hadn't been such a douche to Petunia, just because she was a muggle, she wouldn't have been so envious of Lily & Harry later on.

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

I disagree. Petunia was always jealous of Lily for her abilities. Nothing would have changed had Snape not been in the picture. Heck, Petunia disapproved of Snape for living on the wrong side of the tracks. She felt superior to him. What was telling is that Petunia was so jealous that her sister was going to a special school that she wrote to Dumbledore to see if she could also attend. After Dumbledore told her no, she was furious and turned against her sister and everything magic.

Bob

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

I disagree. Petunia was always jealous of Lily for her abilities.

All siblings and/or cousins experience envy of one another, but, fraternal love usually overcomes that envy in the long run. This was not the case of Petunia & Lily. Snape's negative attitude towards Petunia for being a muggle only cemented her negativity towards her sister for her magic abilities. That is why she married a man who hated the magic world more than she, & they were so cruel to Harry while spoiling their own son rotten.

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

"fraternal love usually overcomes that envy in the long run."

Yes, but in Petunia's case, it didn't. I never saw Snape's attitude toward Petunia as having anything to do with the sisters' relationship. Petunia felt just as negative toward Snape simply for living on the wrong side of the tracks.

Petunia's feelings for magic, specifically Lily's magic, never changed. She was always jealous and, because she couldn't also go to Hogwarts with her sister, she hated her for it. That combined with the adoration their parents doted onto Lily for being accepted to Hogwarts is what cemented her envy of Lily.

As for Vernon, how would he have known that he hated magic so much?

Bob

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

Petunia's feelings for magic, specifically Lily's magic, never changed. She was always jealous and, because she couldn't also go to Hogwarts with her sister, she hated her for it. That combined with the adoration their parents doted onto Lily for being accepted to Hogwarts is what cemented her envy of Lily.

You and Clusium are saying the same thing just in different ways. You are in agreement on this issue.

As for Vernon, how would he have known that he hated magic so much?

Partly because he is the KIND of person who would hate magic if he encountered it. Petunia was obviously perceptive enough to figure that out in her marriage mate.

And partly because he is fictional. Rowling very clearly paired Petunia with Vernon because of their shared feelings toward magic. That cannot be denied. How their marriage came about specifically is not explained and is a blank to be filled in by the reader. Perhaps, during their courtship they encountered some sort of magic and Vernon's response made Petunia say to herself, "this is the man for me!".

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

As bsharporflat noted, our arguments are actually the same.

Yes, Petunia was upset that she couldn't be accepted into Hogwarts, because she wasn't magical. But, let's keep in mind that Dumbledore was nice about it. Snape was not. He was a jerk to Petunia, which did not help in matters regarding Petunia's jealousy of her sister, & later her cruelty towards Lily's son (her own nephew).

It took saving Dudley from the dementors to change both hers & Dudley's attitude towards Harry (if not the witching world in general) back to a more loving one.

Regarding Vernon: When people meet other people, & get to know their personalities, they quickly learn whom they can relate to & whom they cannot, hence, her realizing she found her soulmate in him.

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

I agree that Snape didn’t help matters but I don’t think he’s to ultimately responsible for causing the rift.

From the book my impression of that first scene he witnesses between Lily and Petunia is that Petunia is party frightened by what Lily can do and partly intrigued/envious. Then Snape uses magic to hurt her with the tree branch which would reinforce her fear. She tries to cover her envy by pretending she doesn’t want to go to a stupid castle and learn to be a freak – so learning Lily and Snape know that she actually tired to get in to Hogwarts is a big blow to her pride. Both these things exacerbate the situation.

However I agree with A_Bob that nothing would have changed if Snape hadn’t been in the picture (at least not in the long run). It might have taken a bit longer for things to come to a point but Petunia is jealous and frightened of magic and instead of dealing with her feelings she takes it out on her sister. That’s the real rift. No matter how much of a jerk to her Snape was they didn’t have that much interaction that it would have been enough to turn her against her sister all on its own. Also, Lily says Dumbledore was kind but that wouldn’t necessarily make a difference for Petunia. It might even make it that much more humiliating for her.

I think what is more significant than weather Snape caused the rift is that he shows no empathy when the rift causes Lily pain.

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

"our arguments are actually the same."

No they are not. You are arguing that Snape was a primary cause for the friction between the two sisters, or at least a big one. I am saying Snape had very little to do with it. Petunia hated Lily's magical abilities and feared it, partly because she herself didn't have the same abilities.

teatat was right with the statement that Petunia, "instead of dealing with her feelings she takes it out on her sister" when dealing with the magical abilities. With or without Snape, this was going to be a serious problem for Petunia. Also, it is likely Petunia only saw Sev in the first summer before Hogwarts. What was her excuse afterwards? You can't blame him for the ensuing years.

Petunia's ultimate treatment of Harry may have been, just like Snape, an internal fight between the love of Lily and, for her, the hatred of wizarding. In both, they showed the hatred far more blatantly than the love. Petunia showed it by taking in Harry. She understood how much in danger he was in when she refused to kick him out of the house after receiving the howler from Dumbledore in OoP. I think the deleted scene from DH I where Petunia tells Harry that he didn't just lose a mother (suggesting that she felt for losing her sister) showed a great scene that maybe she had regrets for how she treated her sister.

Bob

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

Oh, I understand where you're coming from, & I still stand by my own POV regarding Snape's role in the rift between Petunia & Lily (& later Harry).

Yes, Petunia experienced both fear & envy of Lily's magical abilities. She couldn't understand them, & yet at the same time, wished she had them. Their parents were pleased for Lily that she had this magical gift, & Petunia interpreted their happiness for Lily as favouritism.

Although she only met Snape that one summer, I still believe it was his hostility that cemented the rift between the 2 sisters. She already partially feared Lily's magic, & Snape's insults & breaking a tree branch on her head, didn't help matters.

However, the fact that she did later on take in Harry (albeit unwillingly), meant that somewhere deep inside, she still loved both her sister & Harry, & their reconciliation at the end of DH shows this.

If Snape hadn't been so nasty to her, all those years earlier, she might have been a much kinder aunt to Harry.

(To be completely honest with you, I actually wish JKR didn't make the Dursleys an abusive family towards Harry. I actually would have preferred that she went the other way, & made them kind of over protective of him, & not want him to attend Hogwarts' for fear of being killed, like his parents, rather than out of hatred for him & the wizarding world.)

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

somewhere deep inside, she still loved both her sister & Harry, & their reconciliation at the end of DH shows this.

Can you clarify what you mean about their reconciliation at the end of DH? I didn't notice any kind of reconciliation between Harry and his aunt at the end. (I'm not being sarcastic I'm honestly looking understand your meaning.)

Some thoughts about the Dursleys being so abusive:

I think it’s part of what makes Harry so special that he grew up being bullied but he didn’t become a bully himself. Not every hero has to have horrors in their back-story but I think it explains a lot of how Harry deals with the world. Also she may have wanted to give Harry some similarity in his childhood to Riddle and Snape (Riddle growing up in a muggel orphanage, Snape growing up with an abusive muggel father) and all of them finding a home at Hogwarts. There would be less significance to Harry finding a place where he belongs at Hogwarts if he had a loving family to spend the Holidays with – no reason for the Weasley’s to break him out – no reason to blow up his aunt and run away, ect.

Also, I think it allows for her to make Harry learning he’s a Wizard more amazing, he’s living a Cinderella-like existence and then suddenly all these letters are showing up, and a Larger than life person shows up in the middle of nowhere ect. There’s that fairy tale like quality of Harry being rescued –except of course that isn’t the end of the story. If all that happened to a family like the Grangers it would just be cruel to scare them like that and someone like McGonagall showing up and patiently explaining the situation just doesn’t have the same impact.

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

Harry reconciled with his aunt, when he reconciled with Dudley. She didn't say too much, but, they definitely seemed to make their peace with one another. Uncle Vernon was the only one from the Dursleys who hated Harry from start to finish.

Admittedly, you do raise a point about JKR wanting Harry to have a similar background with Tom Riddle & Snape. I never really took that into consideration.

I did, however, notice the Cinderella-like backstory he had, growing up with the Dursleys, & have even mentioned that numerous times before with another poster who often criticized a scene in GOF, with Hermione, & describing the scene as being Cinderella-ish. I kept telling her that Hermione wasn't the Cinderella of the HP stories. Harry himself was, but, she kept repeating that criticism over & over here on this forum.

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

Harry reconciled with his aunt, when he reconciled with Dudley.

Wait, did you really mean "at the end" or are you talking about the extended scene at the beginning (that wasn't included in the movie) where she says "I lost a sister". -I'm not trying to be nit-picky I was just confused about what could have happened at the endof DH. If you mean in the extended scene, I think I would call that a moment of understanding rather than reconciliation but I can see how one would look at it that way.

I agree with you that Hermione isn't the Cinderella of the HP stories. I missed that exchange -I guess I spend more time here than on the other HP boards.

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

Wait, do you really mean "at the end" or are you talking about the extended scene at the beginning (that wasn't included in the movie) where she says "I lost a sister".-....

I take it, you only saw the movies & never read any of the books. Petunia & Dudley did reconcile with Harry in DH. It wasn't just a scene that ended up on the cutting floor of the film.

I guess I spend more time here than on other HP boards.

It was on this message forum. There was a poster here who kept coming to Ron's defence, regarding how everyone--from Harry to Ron's own mother--treated him!!! She felt that Ron was under appreciated by one & all throughout the series, & the poster kept on complaining about Hermione's "Cinderella scene at the Ball" in GOF.

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] metsfan40 8 years ago

First of all this is the movie board, not the book board, so if you don't specify that you're talking about the books, people will assume you mean the movie.

Second, Harry did not reconcile with Petunia in the books. She said bye, gave him a look that made it seem like she wanted to say more, but then walked out the door without another word.

No reconciliation. At all.

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

She said bye, gave him a look that made it seem like she wanted to say more, but then walked out the door without another word.

Which indicates that she reconciled with him, just as Dudley did (or going to, anyway). No wonder the screen writers had her say "you lost your mother, but, I lost my sister," to show reconciliation. Unfortunately, it was edited right out of the movie.

Uncle Vernon was the only member of the Dursley family that hated Harry from start to finish, in the HP series.

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] metsfan40 8 years ago

No, it doesn't. I don't think you know what reconcile means. Her saying bye and giving a look but then leaving without a word isn't reconciling with someone.

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

I take it, you only saw the movies & never read any of the books. Petunia & Dudley did reconcile with Harry in DH. It wasn't just a scene that ended up on the cutting floor of the film.

I DID read the books, several times. (I refer to the book a few posts up). I only asked if you were talking about the extended scene because it was the only spot I could think of that someone might see as reconciliation.

Like metsfan40 says there’s no reconciliation in the book at all. She just gives him that look, as if she might say something and leaves. IMO leaving things unsaid does not indicate they made peace with each other. At best it indicates the possibility that it could have happened. Reconciliation is between two people. Harry has no way of knowing what Petunia would have said. For all he knows it could have been anything from “This is all your fault” to “I don’t want you to die.”

It was on this message forum.

Oh, I was part of that conversation, there were a lot of posts and sub-threads I forgot the “Cinderella” part.

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

Hi Guys,

I just re-read the book tonight, & you guys are right - she didn't come & reconcile with him after all. It was implied that she wanted to say something positive to him, but, backed away at the last second.

Dudley was the only one of them that did reconcile with Harry directly (been so many years since I read the book, my memory got confused in what transpired there, between Aunt & Nephew).

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

You are correct, Clusium.

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

Happens to all of us at one time or another :o)

Thank you.

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

Happens to all of us at one time or another :o)

True. 

Thank you.

Your welcome.

(PS: On a sidenote, I still blame Snape for the rift between Petunia & Lily. )

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

"I still believe it was his hostility that cemented the rift between the 2 sisters."

That's fine. I simply don't view Petunia as that bad that she would allow a single person to corrode her relationship with her sister. Petunia disliked Snape but Snape really didn't care about Petunia.

"I actually wish JKR didn't make the Dursleys an abusive family towards Harry. I actually would have preferred that she went the other way, & made them kind of over protective of him"

Both are abusive. They treated harry that way to try to bully the magic out of him. It may have been done, at least on Petunia's part, because she didn't want Harry to be in danger from the same world that killed her sister.

Bob

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[–] Clusium 8 years ago

They treated harry that way to try to bully the magic out of him.

They were like that towards him since he was brought to their house as a baby. They originally had him sleeping in a closet underneath the stairs of the house.

It may have been done, at least on Petunia's part, because she didn't want Harry to be in danger from the same world that killed her sister.

The way the Dursleys treated Harry was aweful!! For example: The afore-mentioning of sleeping in the closet underneath the stairs; also, not caring when it was his birthday, whereas with Dudley, spoiling him beyond all morals, etc.

Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

That's an interesting observation about Petunia and Snape. I hadn't thought about it but they both keep him safe but also bully and resent him. Thanks - I love when someone gives me a new insight :o)

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

1. Harry isn’t always popular and well liked. Snape believes things about Harry that aren’t true because he can’t see past his hatred of Snape. Besides Harry is a kid and Snape is a teacher. He's abusing his power.

2. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

3. If he could have trusted Voldemort to spare Lily he wouldn’t have had any problem with her husband and Son being killed. That IMO is a selfish corrupted sort of love. And he protects Harry but he never considers how much Lily would dislike the way he treats her son.

4. Yes he did those things.

5. He was certainly very brave but I wouldn’t call him the bravest in the world.

6. He threatened to make Neville poison his own frog, took points from Gryffindor because Hermione knew the right answer and made fun of Hermione’s teeth.

Rowling on Snape:
“Snape is all grey. You can't make him a saint: he was vindictive & bullying. You can't make him a devil: he died to save the wizarding world.”

“Snape deserves both admiration and disapprobation, like most of us. “

“Snape didn't die for 'ideals'. He died in an attempt to expiate his own guilt. He could have broken cover at any time to save himself but he chose not to tell Voldemort that the latter was making a fatal error in targeting Harry. Snape's silence ensured Harry's victory.”

“He stood to gain nothing personally but the triumph of the cause Lily had believed in. He was trying to do right.”

He’s an excellent character but I wouldn’t go so far as to say there will never be a better.

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[–] A_Bob 8 years ago

1) There is something wrong with an adult hating a child for who his parent is. It showed Snape couldn't let go of his feud with James, even after his death, and continued it with his child. And yes, it was a mutual feud. Snape was not a simple victim, he was also an instigator with James and Sirius. In fact, in the book's version of Snape's worst memory, James is teasing Snape with some mean spells but Snape retaliates with a spell that could have killed James--Sectumsempra. Thankfully, it merely glanced James face, giving him a small scratch in the process.

2) It's not Snape's love of Dark Arts that was the problem, it was how he used it. As mentioned above, he used a potentially fatal spell that he created on a classmate.

3) He bullied Harry not for the love of Lily, but for the hatred of James. I hope he did not only made sure to keep Harry alive due to the love of Lily. I would hope he did it for the sake of helping keep a child alive, especially as he was responsible for Harry's well being as a professor in Harry's school.

4) I never saw Snape as altruistic. I doubt he made the potion for Lupin out of his altruism, it was likely something Dumbledore told him to do. It was, after all, Snape who likely spilled the beans on Lupin being a werewolf, which forced him to resign. Again, as I said above, helping keep students safe was part of his responsibility as a professor at Hogwarts.

Bob

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[–] watcher101 8 years ago

Everyone keeps forgetting one thing, Snape willingly chose to be a Death Eater. He believed all muggle-borns (with the exception of Lily) were scum who either deserved to die or be slaves to pure bloods, and believed and followed Voldemort's philosophy. Lily even confronted him about it, claiming that he wanted to be a Death Eater, and he didn't deny it, and she pointed out the sick twisted things his friends (future Death Eaters) did, and he didn't care. And lets not forget how eager he was to give Sirius (and even hoping for Lupin) to get the Dementer's Kiss without even listening to an explanation, just because he had a grudge against them.

Also, Snape was partly responsible for the rift between Lily and Petunia. He even says to Lily, and I quote "Who cares what she thinks, she's a muggle". There's his opinion of muggles right there. And he wanted Lily to think like him to, even wanting her to be in Slytherin (before they were sorted). because that's where he wanted to be, with all the racists. Don't forget that the Sorting Hat WILL put you where you really want to go, and since he was sorted after Lily, he preferred to be with the Slytherins than with her. And another thing, I'd even go so far as to calling Snape a stalker when it came to Lily. Rowling even stated that Snape hoped that in becoming a Death Eater, he hoped it would impress Lily. Really, becoming a racist and a murderer was supposed to impress her and win her heart?

The ONE and ONLY reason why Snape turned against Voldemort was out of love for Lily, because he wanted to keep her safe. He even admits to Dumbledore that he asked Voldemort to spare Lily if he would turn over James and Harry (to which Dumbledore replies that Snape disgusts him for this before offering to keep Lily safe for Snape's cooperation). Despite turning to the good side, solely out of love for Lily (not because he wanted to be good), he still agreed and went alone with Voldemort the entire time only turning when he found out Voldemort was going to kill her. And after she died, he only kept up the fight against the Death Eaters because Dumbledore convinced him to protect Harry because he was all that was left of Lily and to keep fighting evil because it was what Lily believed in.

In short, if Voldemort had agreed to spare Lily, he would have been perfectly happy staying by Voldemort's side killing muggles-borns and helping him take over the world. Yes, he loved Lily, and he chose to fight Voldemort to keep her safe, and to protect Harry because he was Lily's son. That is it. Not because he was a good guy, it was all for Lily. Does that sound like a brave, moral, great man?

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

Everyone keeps forgetting one thing, Snape willingly chose to be a Death Eater….

I don’t think many people (if any) have forgotten that.

I agree with much of what you say (except the part about the rift which I’ve gone into in posts above). But, I don’t think we can assume Snape is the same person after so many years of grief that he was before Lily died.

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[–] watcher101 8 years ago

Ok, fair point that he changed over years of grief. But so many people keep saying that he should have gotten Lily all along, even before her death changed him. Still, lets not forget the ways he DIDN'T change. He was still horrible to Harry and his friends for no reason, he was still attracted to the Dark Arts (which is why Dumbledore never let him teach DADA because he feared Snape would go bad again), and, my biggest peeve, what he tried to do to Remus and Lupin. He was hiding under Harry's cloak for a while and heard a great deal of information that indicated Sirius may be innocent (enough to get Harry thinking Sirius might be), yet he still refused to even listen to an explanation, and instead was happy and eager to have not just Sirius, but Lupin as well, receive the Dementer's Kiss. He WANTED Sirius to be guilty, just because he was bullied by him, and as horrible as that was, to have the guy's soul sucked out for revenge when there's a chance he was innocent, that's just something I can't overlook, no matter how good Snape had become.

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[–] teatat 8 years ago

I have made similar points in other posts. My real point being as Rowling said,

"Snape is all grey. You can't make him a saint: he was vindictive & bullying. You can't make him a devil: he died to save the wizarding world"

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[–] bsharporflat-50959 8 years ago

"Snape is all grey. You can't make him a saint: he was vindictive & bullying. You can't make him a devil: he died to save the wizarding world"

I can suspect him of being a devil.

I see more than one sign that Snape was prepared to fill the power vaccuum which would be left when Voldemort, Dumbledore and Harry Potter were all dead.

It WAS part of the Snape/Dumbledore plan that all three would be dead. We know Fudge is discredited. We know what happens to Scrimgeour. If it had played out the way Snape THOUGHT it would play out, there really isn't much leadership left except...him.

Notice that Snape ends up as Hogwarts Headmaster replacing Dumbledore. He was second-in-command among Death Eaters. No reason to think he might not have Voldemort's and even Scrimgeour's position in his sights also.

The guy was an egomaniac. He recognized nobody as his superior. Not Dumbledore, not Voldemort. His "Half-Blood Prince" persona reveals his egomania and reveals it for a purpose. Not even Cursed Child contradicts this possible scenario for Snape and his own plans for the future.

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