Drone Option
I'm assuming drones weren't an option or the technology wasn't developed at that time to allow for remote observation of the village.
She's a man, it's a sled, he's dead already.
The technology was an option at the time in 2005 and they did have an AC-130 gunship fitted with FLIR during their hump to the OP during the night. Why they didn't have a Predator up high during the day I don't know?
If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost
They were not readily available as Predator/UAV support did not canvass all of Afghanistan. Actually it still doesn't. Predator/UAV missions were tasked to major operations. Operation Red Wings was actually a fairly minor operation in comparison. Red Wings was a Battalion level element led operation. In this case the 2/3 and 3/3 were operating independently.
Circa 2005 the US ORBAT for Enduring Freedom was very limited. Most assets were allocated to OIF. ORBAT for the US was 2 BCTs and 1 Sep Battalion or 1 BCT, 1 RCT and 1 Sep Battalion. UAV support was allocated at the CJTF Level. You could make a safe bet that most UAV assets operating in Northeast Astan were most likely after 1 man, not the guy Red Wings was after.
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?
Interesting info. Thanks.
In retrospect (and we can all be Monday morning QBs) the loss of the SF helicopter would have been avoided, plus the initial observers.
She's a man, it's a sled, he's dead already.
The helicopter was carrying the QRF responding to help the SEALs. Unless drones develop a sudden ability to transport bodies to remote drop zones, the drones wouldn't have supplanted the need for the helo. Even if the QRF didn't respond in that fashion it was ultimately going to be used as the follow force that came in to secure the target. Drones can't capture people, only people can do that. Drones also would not have supplanted the need for the SEAL SR. Murphy's SR got within 800-900 yards of the desired target of the mission. Drones of the predator/avenger type operate around 30k ft. The resolution of the drone cannot beat eyes on the ground. The rugged terrain, full of trees and mountains would make it very difficult for the drone to get linear coverage. It would literally need to be directly overhead and catch the target in the open in order to counter all the valley's, ridges and peaks.
Bottomline, drones would have been a great addition to Operation Red Wings but, it would not have eliminated the need for the other elements on the mission.
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?
I haven't read the book in years so I can't remember if the SR SEAL fireteam actually got eyes on Ahmad Shah codenamed Rick James but I would have thought a Predator UAV would have been able to fire one or both of her two Hellfire missiles from say 20,000ft after being lased by the SEALs when he was out in the open or travelling in a convoy...
If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost
According to Luttrell they called out Rick James. But they couldn't get comms to get the message through which is why the QRF was not en-route to take him. They reached 2 of the OPs and had visuals on him at both. They were only moving so they could get though on the radio to relay Rick James. Thats when they fell back to a higher OPs and got compromised. Shahs people we able to even get the pictures off the laptop that the SR took according to his propaganda video translated on al Jazeera.
The subgoal was not to kill Ahmad Shah but, to capture him and as many of his entourage as possible. The village was also not cleared for any collateral damage at all. The overall GOAL of Red Wings was to clear the valley of ACM passively in order to support free elections in the area.
Even the first Armed Predators were capable of lasing their own Hellfire's. COLT guiding Hellfire's is almost primarily done in conjunction with Apache's/Cobra's. It needs to be a manned A/C because the COLT has to be able to talk directly to the operator pulling the trigger. Not saying it would be impossible for the COLT to talk to the Predator controller but it would be difficult. This was especially so in 2005. Communicating with an A/C Line of Sight is simple even in Astan. Communicating through SATCOM terrestrially via relays is an entirely other world of difficulty as evidenced by this story/movie.
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?
The subgoal was not to kill Ahmad Shah but, to capture him and as many of his entourage as possible.
This is news to me as I thought this was a kill mission rather than a capture/kill mission. Also in the movie Lt. Murphy asks Luttrell if he could make the shot in which he says no (both too far out and don't have authorization) which he would have known making the Lt. look amateurish. Great writing Peter Berg.
With an armed entourage of 100+ fighters I'm surprised that it was assigned two Chinooks of SEALs as the QRF to take out Shah alive (was he that much of a HVT that they needed him taken alive?) and kill all of his militia.
I thought that the mission (to clear ACM in the area) was supposed to go to 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Marine Regiment after the SR SEALs confirmed Rick James and militia numbers.
Even the first Armed Predators were capable of lasing their own Hellfire's.
UAVs are looking straight down sometimes they can't tell who is who on the ground so if Shah gets into a white 4WD vehicle convoy with dispersion you need those SEALs either lasing the vehicle or communicating which one he's in.
Even the first Armed Predators were capable of lasing their own Hellfire's. COLT guiding Hellfire's is almost primarily done in conjunction with Apache's/Cobra's. It needs to be a manned A/C because the COLT has to be able to talk directly to the operator pulling the trigger. Not saying it would be impossible for the COLT to talk to the Predator controller but it would be difficult. This was especially so in 2005. Communicating with an A/C Line of Sight is simple even in Astan. Communicating through SATCOM terrestrially via relays is an entirely other world of difficulty as evidenced by this story/movie.
Well correct me if I'm wrong but USAF Drone controllers are based in the Nevada desert so yes their would be a satellite delay from would be a lot longer than a JTAC/COLT on the ground talking to an Apache/Cobra pilots. Unless it was TIC UAVs can fill that role of direct action airstrikes on specific people, houses or vehicles for covert units that the enemy doesn't know they are even there to call/lase it in. Swift, Silent and Deadly.
If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost share
Shah was actually not really a goal at all. His group came up coincidentally in the same manner all the ACM in the Valley did. Like I said the overall goal was to have free elections for the Afghans in this district. Everything done to support that was linear but ultimately could not interfere or jeopardize the main mission. For instance other ACM leaders were forced to give themselves up, even peacefully so. Shah's group was deemed as non compliant so they went after him. But the villages in that Valley could not suffer as a result.
The Marines had developed intelligence that Shah did not have that many men in the valley. Obviously its still under debate on how many men he had. That is why they sent an SR rather than going straight into the village.
You missed the list on how hard it is to lase for a Predator. It simply doesn't happen that way. Its rather simple, if you want mid-term guidance and that tactical advantage of using a COLT you will use a different platform.
Not all drone controllers based in the Nevada desert. Expeditionary Wings take all their logistics with them, where they go, the controllers go too in fact. And its not about a delay. Just like the main enemy in this very movie which isn't Shah, the ability to get a signal out is the main problem.
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?
Dubya, what does the acronym, ACM stand for? I presume something along the lines as 'Anti Coalition Militia'-IE: not Tallywhackers per se, but like we say about Urban Street Gangs & Mobsters, they are 'wanna bees'?
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
Anti-coalition Militia. Taliban and Haqqani are figureheads of a much more complex network of many separate and splinter groups. Shah was actually not affiliated with the Taliban. He was however building a relationship with Haqqani. There were not Afghan Taliban ever in that area or anywhere close. Its a sad addition to the movie. The area was mostly troubled by Hezbe e Islami HIG/HIK
The primary reason to stabilize Kunar was that it contained 2 passes heavily operated by al Qaeda just over the Pakistan border.
The ACM in the area were the roughest. Despite the characterization by some that they were small time. Shah and the the groups like his in the area working on affiliations with Haqqani and HIG/HIK were fiercer and more tactically capable than anything the Taliban could muster.
US Forces know way better than to generalize them all as Taliban. I assume they wrote it into the movie because they thought the audiences would be most familiar with Taliban
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?
What I meant was: the Chinook wouldn't have been in that area going after the Observation team.
I'm well aware drones cannot rescue people.....yet!
She's a man, it's a sled, he's dead already.
Im sorry I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean that the presence of a drone would have meant they would have known what happened to the SR and therefore they wouldnt have launched a rescue? If thats the case it would still mean the need for a recovery just the same. We don't leave our guys behind.
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?
Dubyah is right, mid term guidance for Hellfire Predators doesn't happen.
In Astan we only use the Predator to shoot at targets in relatively open terrain. Where we may have eyes on the target from boots on the ground or other platforms like a Longbow or Kiowa Warrior, Lasing isn't an option for the Hellfire Predator. Uneven terrain with significant hills or mountains or forested areas don't fit the Predator well.
It doesn't matter if the operator of the drone is stateside or in Kabul, the operators have to be able get their comms coordinated. There are options here. Take Neptune Spear. How did they have a live uplink? To DC of all places? Its called Compass Call, along with SOARs specially equipped helo's in support. You only need a line of sight to the aircraft and the aircraft take care of the rest. This isn't possible on all missions or even most missions.
People are spoiled with what they think they know. There is a fantasy in the public that thinks Predators can handle anything. First, let me tell you with first hand experience, the predator doesn't get you near as good an image as other platforms. Cav units now have the networking capability to link video live from Longbow's to M1's, M3's and Stryker's. Certain dismounted units, those that are still participating in a version of Landwarrior, can view the linked video via PC or tablet. SF has a certain degree of capability in this area too but its really hit and miss with who they can link up with.
Thanks for the insight IronHorse, what I was asking was once the SR SEAL fireteam got eyes on Rick James couldn't they lase him or the 4WD he entered and drove around in, Hellfire missile comes down out of nowhere from 20,000ft and it's game over for Slick Rick?
I have done training exercises with the Kiowa Warrior it which it would act as a forward support observation helo for mortars and heavy artillery with us using the old school M101 Howitzer (M2A2). That is for us Reserves, our 1st Regiment, Royal Australian Artillery use the newer, better M777A2 Howitzer (I wouldn't mind seeing how powerful that baby is).
I guess it all comes down to communications, like you said Obama and Co could watch Neptune Spear relatively "live" because there was Lockheed EC-130H Compass Call in the air (not sure if it crossed the Pakistan border) to uplink to a satellite as well as SEAD.
Currently the main role for UAVs is surveillance and reconnaissance and a couple of Hellfires if they are lucky enough to be in a target rich environment or find a HVT. Maybe in the future we'll have UAVs that are armed like an A-10.
The Predators do have good "day TV" vision as well as clear FLIR but with the newer UAVs (MQ-9 Reaper or the MQ-4C Triton) have a synthetic aperture radar (SAR), electro-optical (EO), and thermographic camera (IR) sensors and hopefully soon COMMS with with troops on the ground!
If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost
You can't just lase the target and have a platform fire a Maverick or Hellfire at it and hope the missile picks it up. You have to go through an engagement protocol. I'm not a operator level COLT expert, Enlisted 19D's almost always fulfill that task in the operations that I have been a part of. But I am educated well enough to know the parameters. It's really simple you have to be in communication with the attacking platform. The attacking platform must align itself geometrically with you. IE if I am pointing towards a target east to west the attack platform must align within the same envelope + or - 45 degrees depending up environmental conditions (weather, terrain, etc). There is also some vetting that must occur between the designator and the platform. The platform must verify the return, kind of like IFF.
Predator Operators cannot do this kind of thing not just because of communication limitations. Predator Operators have a very detached and limited scope of interactivity. Its rather elementary in function. There is a navigation system and engineering system and a very limited sensor package. The only way they have to target for its Hellfire is to slew its FLIR which in turn handles the laser designator. There is no cued targeting system that could detect another laser and utilize it to guide a weapon. An Apache for instance has a weapons system with multiple sensors. Before the pilot can fire he must be able to pick up the lasing.
In either case there is no LOAL, Lock-On After Launch with 3rd party guided laser designated weapons. LOBL, Lock-On Before Launch has to occur. The only way for a Predator to lock on to anything is to designate it with its own FLIR designator.
OK Major,
So lets look at two examples, one Hollywood and one real life. In Clear and Present Danger a F/A-18C Hornet drops what looks like a Maverick but explodes as big as a 2000lb bomb at a Drug Lords Mansion in Panama. It was lased or "painted" from a few clicks away in the jungle by a Special Forces unit with a (large) designator and Willem Dafoe's character had COMMS with the Hornet pilot from the ground. Also they had to keep the target painted basically until splash down. Don't know if that is still required these days...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X848-d3QSzY
Then you have 3 idiotic Taliban on a ridge line firing DShK rounds on a f.cking US ARMOURED CONVOY of all things (they must have had a death wish) to take on US troops who have armour and way better weapons systems. It looks like the US troops are firing back with their .50 cal with CROWS and a seperate Spotter calling out the shots. Then the Fighter Jet comes in and drops what looks like a 500lb JDAM on them.
There was no mention on lasing the ridge line or Comms from the troops to the jet so how did it (the jet) know where to drop its JDAM? Also do you hazard a guess what type of Fighter Jet that was in the video? Looks like a Hornet as well...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDvugsSjI6s
Cheers.
If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost