symbolisim


Any thoughts as to the symbolisim in:
a) the pressed flowers in his bible
b) the lightbulb going out, twice
c) (the more obvious) cat/mouse...there to instill more doubt??
..
and...any I missed?

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Well there's cleaning dirty fingernails and cleaning under the foreskin - so we all know what Flynn meant when he said, "I like 'em a little long."

Flynn tells the boys that if the girls reject them they can become priests (i.e. pederasts).

I found the whole thing to be rather 'modern', i.e. unhistorical.

They had/have so many sins in the Catholic Church: I imagine that pederasty would be somewhere between masturbation and adult, male homosexuality.

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What is pederasty? Never heard of that

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This whole film is definitely a tip towards the normalization of pedophilia, or at least the blurring of lines between homosexuality and pedophilia.

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...that's quite a leap assuming the fingernails represented foreskins. And then saying that he likes them a little long makes no sense with that symbolism unless he were talking about fingers. Otherwise the nails represent the entire anatomy of a male.

Or maybe you think gay men love long flappy foreskins I'm not really sure...

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When the nuns are having dinner, Sister James takes a piece of gristle out of her mouth and puts it back on her plate. Sister Aloysius glares at SJ, and SJ picks the gristle up and puts it back in her mouth, chews it down.

I thought this was really symbolic in light of what Sister Aloysius is accusing Father Flynn of: sexual molestation. So if you'll excuse me for being blunt, the gristle was symbolically Sister A's clitoris. Inversely, forcing Sister James to eat that nubbin of meat (ew) is comparable to what Sister A is accusing Father Flynn of doing: forcing Donald Miller to eat the meat.

I point this out as symbolic because you can tell that Sister A is generally overbearing with the nuns she's in charge of, unkind, withholding, which can be though of as abusive in and of itself. It provides a good backdrop for Father Flynn's plea to Sister James about there being "nothing wrong with kindness", which is the time-honored cry of your friendly neighbourhood pederast.

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Nice! I missed this scene. I'm going to re-watch it. I noticed some other stuff. I think I'll break everything down N start a thread. Last night watching this movie I was too busy looking at things in the background. Your right, that does sound like a parallel to sexual dominance. Sister A and Father Flynn both have positions of power they abuse and know what personalities will submit to them. Although I believe Sister A is more empathetic and nurturing than she seems. Lying about the blind nun and the multitude of Mother Mary décor in her office show this. We also don't know what direction she was going to go in light of talking to the mother. Also after talking to the mother; The table lamp on the filing cabinets is on for the first time and stays on. It's Illuminating a brass cross and a Mother Mary wall statue looking toward the light.

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Oh, the lamp stuff is so interesting. I need to watch it again for JUST lamp stuff.

The scene where she makes her eat the meat she's just spit out is my favorite moment in the movie. I agree with you about her being more empathetic and nurturing than she lets on, but Father Flynn is too with his selected victims. I love the parallels drawn between FF and SA, even while SA is trying to undo FF for what she believes are his transgressions.

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Yes definitely take a look at that scene. There is another scene where Sister A and Sister J talk in a small lounge type room. There are several needless lamps and one lamp next to the door with "three" cascading bulbs. They are excessively bright. When sister A walks next to the window we see a reflection of just one of the bulbs in the glass of a picture frame. I don't know why but this seems to be in reference to Flynn only being concerned about two of the flowers. Also references Sister A putting a picture up on Sister J's chalk board so the kids will think she has eyes in the back of her head. She mentioned that may scare the children and Sister A said something like "only the ones doing wrong". She also found a beret on the floor in this scene. (There was a beret missing in the old women's hair during Flynn's Gossip sermon). I know these things are all referencing something but I don't know what. I find myself disturbingly interested in the background narrative probably because the reality of what's being expressed extends past the screen into pedophilia agenda just as you said. Amazingly acted performances. I don't know how accurate this is but someone said in a post they saw an interview or a quote from Hoffman saying the Director told him his character was a pedophile but did not tell any other Actor to keep the tension and doubt as real as possible. Sounds about right. I do think some of these actors see behind the curtain and see what they are part of. imagine achieving such a high level of fame and at some point realizing your talents are being used to degenerate and hypnotize billions of people. No wonder these actors end up overdosing. I've always been a movie buff but not so much past mid 200's. Many movies and shows now just seems to be a platform for homosexuality, emasculation, pedophilia, hyper sexuality, and mental conditioning. Not going to get into all that 911 stuff here though. That's for YouTube. heh.

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Crowfr, do you blog or frequent any particular sites?

I don't remember the bit about the beret, and will have to look for it. The lamp/light symbolism, there's something to it. I read a snippet somewhere about certain scenes being lit up garishly, even Christmas-like. I will explore this theme. Oh, and I need to watch the background of this movie, too. Sometimes I get caught up just watching background actors!

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I was just reading through my old posts. I didn't notice you asking about blogging or other sites. I am JohnCarroll on YouTube and very seldom get on Newsvine under marjorine23. I was thinking about breaking down Doubt and other movies on YouTube, and some other stuff relating to ghosts/daemons. Send me a message on here or YouTube. It sounds like we probably have similar YouTube playlists.

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Hey John/crowfr,

I searched that handle and came up with this:

https://www.youtube.com/user/johnCarroll/feed

There isn't much activity, so I can't tell if I have the right person. Let me know. I'm cunspeerissytheery on YT.

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This is all so interesting to me!! This movie really left an impact. such a great film..

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Hi Rayna! Was it your first time watching it? It's an incredible movie. I think about it sometimes even when I haven't watched it in a while.

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It was! And I would love to see it again after reading all of these comments. I still think about it too!! I guess that's the sign of a great movie.. I look back on my ratings on IMDB and can't even remember some of the movies I've seen...lol.

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Yes lots of clever symbolism. The cat and mouse most obvious but clever, along with the tilted camera angles, looking at the street through barred windows in opening scene, the eye in the painted window looking at Fr. Flynn as he walks through a hallway, the dragon's breath (in the potting shed) coming out of Sister Aloysius' mouth when she's told about Donald and the wine, the window light striking Father Flynn's face like a slap when the blinds open and she asks "which boy!?", the red bloody meat on the priests' table, the long nails on Fr. Flynn (brought up many times), the meat gristle Sr. James was forced to swallow, the light bulbs blowing out above them twice. Maybe some just incidental things but they add flavor to emotions, like Sr. Aloysius kicking branches
in the yard, the sugar cubes and how unaware and entitled Fr. Flynn seemed when he asked for - not just one but 3 cubes, the ballpoint pens as too modern and demanding, the girl's berrette, the 2 liquor bottles on Sr. Aloysius' filing cabinet near the lamp - someone should perhaps confirm or agree or disagree, but certainly much symbolism in the settings. The sounds too, well done, the quiet of the nun's table versus the hedonism of the priest's table, the portentious thunder, lightening, wind and rain at night, all set effective moods. Did someone mention the zither at the beginning? For the trouble to include that scene it had to have some meaning.

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