Really. I just don't want to see anything like what is shown in the movie in my country (Poland) or, well, anywhere else. While watching this I couldn't stop thinking about all those people in the US and Europe, consuming tons of drugs that are provided by the drug lords from Latin America (in the case of the US) or Afghanistan (Europe), while their governments force the "war on drugs" policies on the countries where the drugs came from. Pure schizophrenia. And it's exactly those policies that force, at this moment, Mexico to become a failed state. Second thing - dozens of people killed so the pope could sleep peacefully for one night - my god I haven't heard a story like that concerning middle ages, and we, supposedly aren't living in the middle ages right now. But the most important lesson you can get from "Tropa de elite" is: if you get too much social inequality you end up with dead squads, and you can't blame anyone for that except the rich - hence, socialism.
Hi, i'm Brazzo and you do have a point wazzon and i almost agree with you. I just don't entirely agree with you because socialist governments were the most slaughtering regimes ever. Oh, and Poland has lots of beautiful girls, bring'em on here :)
Unfortunately we know something about it (socialism = slaughter) in Poland too :( I guess when I say "socialism" I don't think about USSR-style system, but something more like, well, Sweden or something.
I'll tell you what socialist governments give you - nothing. No new technology ie. imagine the automobile 110 years ago - crank motors, no turn signals, no air conditioning, no power steering, no automatic transmission, no heaters - you get it - there are no improvements because there is no reward for inventing such.
Socialism rewards the lazy and punishes the hard working - as to Sweden they make a lot of money on military hardware but haven't the stones to fight in one.
It is foolish to base your opinions on a particular ideology on past regimes, just because some people used socialism and turned it into a repressive slaughtering regime. Even national socialism, on paper, is not what Adolf Hitler and his cabinet made it out to be. That's like saying, guns are one of the most slaughtering weapons ever and should be outlawed. Well it's not the guns that kill people, it's the person wielding the gun. Guns were not invented to murder and slaughter.
I'm not pro to guns. However, I would like to give my opinion on what you said.
Weapons are made for death and destruction.
Weapons are made to overpower the opponents, or a inflict damage to a target. Death and destruction aren't necessarily the consequence of inventions of weapons. First weapon ever used by mankind was probably a piece of rock. It was used to scare predators. As civilizations grow, we invented better weapons. More effective weapons to better safeguard members of our society. Unfortunately, war happened. And people, using their common sense, incorporate weapons as tool during battle. As time goes by, people see the need to have better weapons so they can win battles, and hence, win the wars.
So, in the most basic sense, not all weapons are made for death and destruction. For example, the taser gun was designed to incapacitate only. Even a handgun or rifle gun, if used properly isn't exactly a weapon for murder and destruction. Police carry guns as a mean to discourage criminals, protect themselves and others in dangerous situations, or to incapacitate criminals. However, some weapons seem like they're made for destruction. When faced against tanks, airplanes, or other situations, it's common to think of a better weapon that can deal with them. That's why people invented missiles and bombs. To me, missiles and bombs are still poor design of weapons. In the future, we might see EMP pulse emitters being used to stop tanks or aircrafts. This weapon will not kill people, only disable their weapons and equipments. In fact, all weapons with a high probability of killing the target are the consequence of the lack of creativity and advancement of technology.
Even if we could come up with better weapons that can incapacitate the opponents without killing or hurting them, people will find a way to misuse them. Now, imagine a world where the only weapon available is the taser gun. By design, it's supposed to be safe to prevent killing the enemy. I'm pretty sure, that are still people who would misuse the taser gun for overpowering other people to get what they want. They'd use it to rob, rape, and other crimes. From this we can learn that the one to be blame is really the people who misuse weapons (including the people who start wars) are the ones to be blamed.
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Guns are not made to kill, guns are made to fire a projectile at high speed in a controlled trajectory. Your billy club reference is laughable, and it makes my point. The billy club is a damn piece of wood (some modern ones being made of rubber), a piece of wood that is as dangerous as a piece of 2 X 4 construction board, it all depends on who is wielding the piece of wood and their intentions.
Millions of guns firing billions of rounds of ammunition shoot holes in paper, make cans fly or drop metal plates on sporting gun ranges every day. A firearm is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. It is an excellent deterrent tool, preventing millions of crimes and stopping many crimes in progress, in this case a gun is more of a life saving tool than a killing one. In the wrong hands it's a killing tool, but then so is a knife, car, piece of wood etc.
Man without relatives is man without troubles. Charlie Chan
Ideas or systems are harmless. The problem is the people who put them in practice. If these people are greedy bastards or resentful little men with no interest in human life, Socialism, Capitalism, or any other way is condemned to failure.
well, i agree with you that greedy bastards and resentfull little men can only have a negative impact, but saying that certain ideals or systems are harmless is just plain ignorance. for capitalism to function, for example, there must be people being exploited for the gain of others, 3rd world countries held in debt, etc, all justified by the ideology of liberalism and system of false 'democracy'. as a system, soviet communism was also a nightmare (although this was very much to do with the leaders, not so inherent as with the other theories). patriarchy pretty much everywhere causes constant harm. and fascism is about the most worrying of them all, this ideology and the resulting systems and beliefs are extremely damaging. so no, not everything just depends on the people who put them into practise. (i myself am a socialist-feminist, in case you need to know)
You're right. Mind me, but I have developed a very pessimistic view upon mankind. And your opinion is truly valuable to me no matter what kind of person you are. Cheers!
I would love to live in a utopia where nobody is murdered, everyone has a sense of duty to their fellow man(woman) and nobody is exploited. That being said, I personally believe capitalism is the only form of government that works as a whole. It's rotten, people are kept poor, the rich keep getting more rich. I prefer this system (keeping in mind I'm lower middle class, so I fall in line with a substantial portion of the U.S. population) over socialism. I just have three big gripes with socialism/communism. Though they look great on paper, nobody can pull them off. I feel the human spirit makes any form of socialism impossible in the long run. There is always someone who can gain power, who can manipulate the system, and who can corrupt the system heavily.
I also feel that socialism, especially communism, kills our drive to succeed. We all want to succeed. In the USSR, the quota system made work monotonous, where if you were to produce above your quota, you would get no recognition in any form. People just met their quotas (barely) and life crawled on, with no chance to improve your quality of life. You are stuck in the same housing, receiving the same portions of food, clothes, drink and all other commodities, even if your neighbor does the bare minimum and you don't.
I also hate big government. We are spoiled with this whole idea of liberty in America. It's our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (property). I've been brainwashed with these ideals. It bugs me when government spends my money on frivolous ventures. I don't care about investments gone bad, etc. (referring to the solar panels the Obama admin. invested in) because not every investment works out. That should be a given in capitalism. You are not guaranteed success, and to gripe over a bad investment is ridiculous (keeping in mind I don't always support Obama). I also don't enjoy being told what to do. If I'm not bothering anyone else, why does the government have to bother me? If I want to toke up (I don't btw, just a good example) in my own home, why shouldn't I be able to? Why should the government be able to pay me "fair market value" for my land to build a road? You know very well that fair market value is incredibly cheap. They rip you off. There's all sorts of examples of big government telling me the citizen what I can and can't do. The one socialist ideal I believe in is the government should work for the people, not vice-versa.
I think humans are competitive, and capitalism fits the bill. There are always ways to achieve. The cards may be heavily, heavily, heavily stacked against the majority of us, but there's always that hope. One idea can greatly increase your quality of life. Of course, for most of us, that never happens. I just think socialism is inherently worse, though I 100% respect your opinion if it's not the same as mine.
I feel too many people can't argue without taking things personally or getting on someone's back for their opinion. Everyone is entitled to one, and if you present it respectfully, a respectful counter-argument is welcome. I love hearing other people's take on things. That's why I get on these boards.
"You keep calling me Walter. I don't like you," -Rorschach
Capitalism hasn't put into practice. What we're seeing is not the result of the free market, but rather the result of Governments and Corporations. Rather than rant madly about it, I direct you to this link: http://mises.org/story/3379
I am swedish. Our welfare state is... it's worked ok for us so far, but now we are seeing the results. Rising unemployment, more and more people mooching off the system and tax money being wasted on idiotic government projects.
What we're seeing is not the result of the free market, but rather the result of Governments and Corporations.
Corporations are the result of free market. Wherever there is an unrestricted competition there always will be some entity that rises over others and starts exploiting them. And the it restricts competition so it could profit more.
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Brazil is more socialist than capitalist. Do your homework before making blanket statements about things you know nothing of.
And, just like everywhere else, socialism doesn't work, becomes onerously bureaucratic, and everyone pays. Brazil has some of the highest tax rates in the world, socialized medicine, socialized housing, the government runs,owns and otherwise directly controls banks, universities, etc. The dirty little truth is the government LIKES shanty towns, the more people they can squeeze into them the better, because, come election time, all they have to do is distribute some rice and beans, give them all T-shirts and a couple bags of cement, and they've bought all the votes they need to get elected. A nice captive voting block which settles for little in exchange for votes. Keep them ignorant and poor or they'll lose their constituents. To ensure that this system continues in their favor, the government and it's corrupt officials make sure that voting is mandatory. Some "democracy", where you're required to vote under penalty of law. Don't vote, and they'll withhold your paycheck, your benefits payments, passport, etc.
What are you on about, Brazil has only recently started with social policies, from 1964-1984 the country endured the corrupt extreme right military dictatorship, the dictatorship allowed for extreme cases of corruption to go rampant, there has hardly any investment in education and health care and today we reap the fruit of that.
For the record here, neither the soviet union, not the local government during the cold war years could be considered to be socialism. Socialism stipulates that the work force should be in power, what happened with the soviet union was that the state was in power, not the workers. This kind of government is called state capitalism. Unlike the Bolshevik state, a capitalist state must rely on the people and these should be educated.
Swedish dude, trust me your government problems are not that big, granted that they have problems but at least you guys in Sweden have managed to build yourselves quite a healthy society.
The argument that capitalism has never been established is flawed, you can say that perhaps the free market has never been achieved but capitalism does allow for government and corporations. In fact corporations are born in a capitalist environment where they are able to accumulate profit.
I do believe that governments should strive to socialism, instead of the trickle down pyramid economics we live in today. What use will profit have if society goes to *beep* we see the results of that in the slums.
Cobram is in denial of the important social and economical advancements Brazil is doing. He criticize the voting system, which is a bless, and a major part of the improvement happening. He purposely omits that theres a "blank" button in the voting machine. Anyone can just press that button to not vote in anyone. He also underestimate the people, a gross mistake to make in these days. People are getting informed, Internet is playing a huge part on it, and the electronic vote system is the catalyst key element in all this. The obligatory vote is another essential element, because it enforces the majority's will.
You are getting the whole idea wrong... The movie was a huge success first of all because its just a movie, and it actually uses the Hollywood formula of making a great action movie, with a great addition for us (brazilians) wich is putting the bad guys as bad guys, what are actually a exception in Brasil, where the drug dealer, the killer, etc is almost always an innocent person, and never the bandit. About the Pope, its not actually for the sleep of Pope, but actually about the image of Brasil around the world... What would you think if a head of state couldn't go somewhere because of the violence? And one of the great things about the movie is that Capitão Nascimento is just a cop, he cant make that kind of connection...
Well said jonepodesta, I think the film basically laughs at the socialist idiotic students who don't know what they're talking about in the scenes where Matias is at school and around those people.. OP, if you got a message of socialism from this film i dont think you got the intended message of the movie, or at least not how i perceived it anyway
I think it talks more about how hipocrite people can be,u saw thath kid who smokes marijuana like a crazy P.I.M.P,he acts against violence,capitalism...but at the end of the day he's in the favela using drugs and the drugs are the gold mine of the crime!at the middle of the movie his friend dies murdered by drug dealers and he goes on a peace walk SEE the Hypocrisy!i do think is a social commentary but not just about capitalism