This Friday on “Caprica” ep 01: “Pilot” - Caprica (2010) Discussion

[–] brimfin 11 years ago

Good news and bad news. I tried out the Yidio site this morning. It was totally bogus - no free episodes. It just guided you to other sites that were pay for view or offered a "free sample" which would be followed by requests for money later on. I thank dtmuller for his suggestions, but I can't be spending $35 or so for something I'll likely only watch once. The $6.55 from Amazon was only for half a season, the rest was $14 more plus shipping and again I don't want to buy a show that I don't even know if I'll like. So it looks like I won't be watching CAPRICA on my computer this time around.

That's the bad news. The good news is that I'll be watching it on my High-Def TV instead because I just got NETFLIX! I'd been considering getting it for a while now; let's say this was the deciding factor.

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[–] wlcebtg 11 years ago

Almost all my TV comes from Netflix "no commercials". HULU is nice too except for the short commercial breaks. It's so much cheaper then cable...

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

Off to a good start. Typical pilot--the plot takes a back seat to introducing everyone and, in this case, the world.

Now this is a very interesting world, as SF worlds go. Unusual in several respects. First, it's readily recognizable as maybe just a generation from us. The technology is advanced, but not so far as to be disorienting. The school is an ordinary building with ordinary books, not the glass-and-metal exterior with stark white walls inside, holographic books, etc. that you see so often in the imagined future. And yet pieces of their technology are seriously advanced. I can imagine today's teens as the parents in a world like that.

Second, the people act like real people, not SF people. They lie. They cheat at tennis (or maybe they just complain that their opponent is cheating). They say stupid things they regret later. Kids are interested in sports and comic books. Kids can be bratty and drive their parents crazy, but they love each other anyway. The government thinks it knows best what people should believe. People are prejudiced about other ethnic groups. (Sorry Star Trek fans, but while the target group changes--nobody hangs up "Irish need not apply" signs anymore--people really don't, and unfortunately, I don't think that will ever change.)

Third, I don't think I've ever seen a SF series or movie in which religion has any meaningful part, unless that's the primary point of the series (e.g. Brimstone). Star Wars had its "Force", but I'm talking about a more conventional (OK, Western) religion, with a personal god. Scientific and technical advances have and will affect some religious beliefs, but I don't see it ever completely displacing religion, as appears to be the case in most SF worlds. What makes it more interesting is that the dominant religion here is polytheistic. It's interesting that the monotheists here are driven by the desire to know good and evil, right and wrong. That explains the photo "icon" for the series I've seen in several places, including Netflix, which depicts Zoe nude and holding an apple that has a bite taken from it. On first glance, that doesn't appear to have anything to do with the series, but then God told Eve that the forbidden fruit was on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We'll see how that plays out.

Now here I have a question for the rest of you. You need to understand that I've never seen even a single episode of Battlestar Galactica, and maybe that would answer my question. The dominant religion on Caprica is taken from Greek mythology. (I notice that the Tauron mentions praying to Mars, a Roman name--do the Capricans use the Greek names and the Taurons the Roman names?) It's a very long reach to believe that some civilization independent of Earth would happen to give their deities the same names as did the ancient Greeks and Romans. Is Caprica connected to Earth? And if it is an Earth colony or something, how did they revert to a religion that has been dead for millennia?

Finally, I like the idea that the conflict comes from a main character who is not especially evil (although certainly ethically challenged), but is just a bit of a nut case. I hear "Graystone", but I keep thinking "Frankenstein".

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

Now here I have a question for the rest of you. You need to understand that I've never seen even a single episode of Battlestar Galactica, and maybe that would answer my question. The dominant religion on Caprica is taken from Greek mythology. (I notice that the Tauron mentions praying to Mars, a Roman name--do the Capricans use the Greek names and the Taurons the Roman names?) It's a very long reach to believe that some civilization independent of Earth would happen to give their deities the same names as did the ancient Greeks and Romans. Is Caprica connected to Earth? And if it is an Earth colony or something, how did they revert to a religion that has been dead for millennia?

Another interesting old Earth influence is in the names of the different worlds there: Caprica, Tauron, Geminon... Capricorn, Taurus, Gemini...? Zodiac signs based on constellations as seen from Earth. From other stars, one would see different constellations as one's point of view is changed.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by bob-402-252005 » 24 minutes ago (Sat Mar 1 2014 07:02:33)
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Now here I have a question for the rest of you. You need to understand that I've never seen even a single episode of Battlestar Galactica, and maybe that would answer my question. The dominant religion on Caprica is taken from Greek mythology. (I notice that the Tauron mentions praying to Mars, a Roman name--do the Capricans use the Greek names and the Taurons the Roman names?) It's a very long reach to believe that some civilization independent of Earth would happen to give their deities the same names as did the ancient Greeks and Romans. Is Caprica connected to Earth? And if it is an Earth colony or something, how did they revert to a religion that has been dead for millennia?

Another interesting old Earth influence is in the names of the different worlds there: Caprica, Tauron, Geminon... Capricorn, Taurus, Gemini...? Zodiac signs based on constellations as seen from Earth. From other stars, one would see different constellations as one's point of view is changed.

Oh, boy. it's very hard to discuss this without giving away BSG spoilers. I'll try to do my bet. Considering at the time this story takes place, Earth humans were still homo erectus, an alien civilization having Greek Gods would make as much sense as the same alien society driving earth such as Citroens, Volvos, and other old European vehicles which are not popular in the US. Har, har.

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

Considering at the time this story takes place, Earth humans were still homo erectus,

I wouldn't have thought it that long ago, considering that Galactica and the pursuing Cylons reached Earth circa 1980. I recall catching one scene of the series from that, in which a Cylon goes barging through a restaurant kitchen and is temporarily incapacitated by the microwave oven.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] brimfin 11 years ago

Now here I have a question for the rest of you. You need to understand that I've never seen even a single episode of Battlestar Galactica, and maybe that would answer my question. The dominant religion on Caprica is taken from Greek mythology. (I notice that the Tauron mentions praying to Mars, a Roman name--do the Capricans use the Greek names and the Taurons the Roman names?) It's a very long reach to believe that some civilization independent of Earth would happen to give their deities the same names as did the ancient Greeks and Romans. Is Caprica connected to Earth? And if it is an Earth colony or something, how did they revert to a religion that has been dead for millennia? (dtmuller)

In the original series, they were connected. The original series had the inhabitants on spaceships after their planet was destroyed trying to locate their "lost colony" that had eventually become our Earth.

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

Thanks madp and brimfin, you've answered that enough that it makes sense without spoiling anything.

It also answer's Bob's question about the constellation names. If Earth folks and these people have the same ancestry, it would seem that we named the constellations after the planets in this system. And depending on where you are, the constellations actually may not be that different. From a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, for example, without precision astronomical instruments, you would notice only two things different in the night sky: the constellation Centaurus would be missing a star, and Cassiopeia would have an extra, rather bright, yellow star. (OK three things. Since Alpha Centauri is a double star, you'd have a very bright companion.)

Brimfin, I understand your concern, but I'm not worried--yet--about how they're going to handle the monotheists. While they may believe in only one god, it isn't necessarily the real one, and that could send them off in who knows what crazy direction. I guess what I'm saying is, don't equate monotheism with Christianity. And we certainly know that there are monotheists in our world who are not at all averse to terrorism. Let's see how it develops. And I wouldn't trust Clarice as far as I can throw a piano. She seems to be playing both sides of the fence. We'll see.

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

Scientific and technical advances have and will affect some religious beliefs, but I don't see it ever completely displacing religion, as appears to be the case in most SF worlds.

Thank you. I have long believed that the only people who see a fundamental conflict between religion and science are those who have an axe to grind against one of the two and wish to bludgeon it with the other.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

And away we go!

This cylon looks very different from the ones I remember from the old Battlestar Galactica with Lorne Greene in command.

Truly there is no greater cruelty than the thoughtless kind. Mr. Graystone knows that the avatars created with Zoe's program have feelings just like the real people from whom they're made, and yet he still locks those of teenaged girls up alone in a dark room with nothing there to occupy their minds. And leaves them there indefinitely at his convenience to visit like taking a toy out to play with it and putting it away again.

And he even does it to the one of his own lost daughter. The guy's a monster by way of not even knowing he's one.

Funny that the Tauron lawyer who tries to keep his distance from his mobster benefactor is the brother of such a tough assassin. How siblings usually do turn out to be so very different from each other.

Now we have the setup in place: The society is spread out among a handful of planets, each the equivalent of a different state or perhaps a different nation under a one world government such as the Right fears or a massive "free trade" agreement putting a moneyed oligarchy above all nations such as the Left fears.

The top military contract is for these artificially intelligent battle robots, or Cylons, and everyone involved here has his or her hands dirty now to some extent.

The world at large believes in a polytheistic religion loosely based on the ancient Greek and Roman gods. While the militant religious offshoot are monotheists based loosely on the three major monotheistic religions of the current world.

And now the pretty girl is trapped in the body of a huge, grotesque killer robot.

This is promising. I give it 8 holobands.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] FangsMcWolf 11 years ago

bob-402-252005 (Fri Feb 28 2014 18:10:06)
This cylon looks very different from the ones I remember from the old Battlestar Galactica with Lorne Greene in command.

You forget, this was the beginning of it all. The Cyclons you see in this show aren't completed yet, while the ones you see in BSG are.

bob-402-252005 (Fri Feb 28 2014 18:10:06)
Truly there is no greater cruelty than the thoughtless kind. Mr. Graystone knows that the avatars created with Zoe's program have feelings just like the real people from whom they're made, and yet he still locks those of teenaged girls up alone in a dark room with nothing there to occupy their minds. And leaves them there indefinitely at his convenience to visit like taking a toy out to play with it and putting it away again.

And he even does it to the one of his own lost daughter. The guy's a monster by way of not even knowing he's one.

What the fudge are you rambling about? He didn't invent a dark lonely room with the intent of real life souls to end up there. It's just how it ended up happening and instead of trying to make the holding area a place to vacation at, he started working on trying to get his daughter out of there and back into the real world. Once that failed though, he couldn't just drop everything and work on that dark room, he had to keep up with his real world obligations.

Either you haven't watched enough of the series to figure that out, or you didn't pay attention to it. Otherwise you'd know that what you wrote is way off base. Let's also not forget that the avatars can leave that lonely room and explore the rest of the virtual world.

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

What the fudge are you rambling about? He didn't invent a dark lonely room with the intent of real life souls to end up there. It's just how it ended up happening and... <excuses>

Either you haven't watched enough of the series to figure that out, or you didn't pay attention to it.

Actually, I've watched the entire frackin' series a couple of times per ep. before. The excuses you make for this are the thoughtlessness of which I spoke. And his treatment of Avatar Zoe in the Cylon gets much worse later on in the series, and I mean after he figures out she's in there, before he shows any repentence for it.

Either you have empathy or you don't, I guess.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] FangsMcWolf 11 years ago

bob-402-252005 (Mon Mar 3 2014 09:16:47)
Either you have empathy or you don't, I guess.

Agreed. And in this case, either you have brains or you don't. One of us has both empathy and brains, the other is you.

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[–] brimfin 11 years ago

First disclosure here – I’ve never seen the most recent version of BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. I did see the 1978 version or at least the first seven or eight episodes of it. So, it’s a bit like watching ENTERPRISE but having never seen STAR TREK. I realize a lot of this will be over my head and a lot of references and in-jokes will pass by unnoticed. I did catch the references to Adama and the creation of the word Cylon at the end, but most of the rest was entirely new to me, whereas someone who’s seen the updated version of BG will have a familiarity with it that I’ll never have.

Second disclosure – I am a Catholic and proud of it. I have a major problem with the idea of starting off this show with someone who is supposedly a believer in “the one true God” blowing up a trainload of people for absolutely no reason. It’s totally inconsistent with the belief in a loving God, and contrary to some of the other points that Ben the believer says in flashbacks. They have a chance to redeem their point when Clarice reveals that she is a monotheist as well, but she just makes excuses for Ben as if what he did was a little misguided but okay. And she has a look in her eyes as she hugs Lacy that implies there’s sinister goings-on in her head. So this is a major deduction in my eyes.

As to the rest of the show, we have the two families Graystone and Adama. I have a feeling I’m going to like the Adamas better, even though he’s a Tauron which seems to be a version of the Mob in this universe. I see the planets (or perhaps moons, I’m not sure) in this system are named for the Zodiac - Caprica, Geminon, Tauron, Verges – each perhaps with their own type of people. I found the statement near the end that “You can’t trust a Tauron; Deceit is in their veins.” ironic, since Graystone had stolen Tauron technology to finish his project.

The teens in this drama are interesting particularly Zoe and Lacy (interesting coincidence that we have a best friend named Lacy on this show as well, just without the “e”.) The idea of genius Zoe having created a version of herself who now is still alive to a degree is intriguing. Less so was the idea that Graystone thought he could somehow create a knock-off of Adama’s daughter just using some personal data he found. Totally bogus idea in my book. Looks like it won’t happen now anyway, but we’ll see. Other things I liked: the whole alien world structure was professional looking, I really liked those bowling pin type robots which seemed very efficient. The casting is all good caliber, with Esai Morales and Paula Malcolmson being the most intense of the adults, although Eric Stoltz is a very believable scientist. Too bad Anna Galvin, as Joseph’s wife, had to get blown up so early.

I excuse the fact that this is a pilot and you have the obligatory "introduce the characters" motif. I can’t excuse the religious angle right now, though, so I’m just giving this 5 bowling pin robots. Hopefully, next week will be better.

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

Second disclosure – I am a Catholic and proud of it. I have a major problem with the idea of starting off this show with someone who is supposedly a believer in “the one true God” blowing up a trainload of people for absolutely no reason. It’s totally inconsistent with the belief in a loving God, and contrary to some of the other points that Ben the believer says in flashbacks.

Remember that "monotheist" doesn't necessarily mean "Christian." In fact, this is an entirely different world where all religions would be different.

However, since this show's monotheism seems to me to be based loosely on the three major monotheistic religions on Earth, I'll go with the examples of those 3.

I always thought that to sentence somebody to an afterlife of eternal torture for not accepting the right incarnation of God on Earth during their lifetime sounds inconsistent with a loving God, but a very large percentage of Christians believe that.

Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, there are monotheists practicing terrorism in the name of their "one true God" in this present day and age. And I can immediately think of examples of that, both Christian and Islamic, during my adult lifetime. I certainly wouldn't define an entire religion by such individuals.

And as for "the one true God," that's a universal belief of every monotheistic religion. It's sort of what defines a religion as monotheistic, that they believe their god to be the one true God. Omnipotence naturally follows as a necessary trait for one true god to have.

It's possible and even likely that any resemblance to any current religion in this world is purely due to the nature of the concept of monotheism.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by brimfin » 3 hours ago (Sat Mar 1 2014 07:31:02)
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Second disclosure – I am a Catholic and proud of it. I have a major problem with the idea of starting off this show with someone who is supposedly a believer in “the one true God” blowing up a trainload of people for absolutely no reason. It’s totally inconsistent with the belief in a loving God, and contrary to some of the other points that Ben the believer says in flashbacks. They have a chance to redeem their point when Clarice reveals that she is a monotheist as well, but she just makes excuses for Ben as if what he did was a little misguided but okay. And she has a look in her eyes as she hugs Lacy that implies there’s sinister goings-on in her head. So this is a major deduction in my eyes.

Just for the record, I don't have any strong religious views, but I was raised in a Catholic society and have taken all the sacraments, and I used to go to church when I was a kid. Anyway, since this is just a TV show, I think what applies best is try to understand what religion means in this fictional universe without necessarily connecting it with your personal beliefs. So, if they eventually show that God is a giant Cylon robot, well, that's what it is, as much as magic is real in Lord of the Rings, something we get to accept even if we know magic doesn't exist. Hocus pocus! And, yeah, it would have helped greatly if you'd seen Battlestar Galactica in order to contextualize that.

But anyway if we're talking about a fictional universe where we can be sure God exists and is all-knowing and loving (something I'm not so sure of in real life), I'd risk saying that in that context, God is perfect, but people, religions, and their interpretation of God's will aren't. Hence, misguided actions like terrorism.

The teens in this drama are interesting particularly Zoe and Lacy (interesting coincidence that we have a best friend named Lacy on this show as well, just without the “e”.)

It's nice you remembered that, something I forgot to mention. I like those teens very much, especially Zoe and Lacy. I think that's relevant especially after our conversation with charmed about why I don't like movies and shows with teens. These teens are OK in my book.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

Caprica – Episode 1

Well, well, what a nice start! And now I want a Cylon body guard too. And a sexy virtual Cylon girlfriend as well. Cylons rule! Speaking of sexy, the first point I raise is that of teenage sexuality. Zoe is supposed to be 16, but what do you make of this promo picture released before the show started?
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10300000/Caprica-alessandra-tor resani-10311659-1095-1500.jpg

It sure looks provocative. But don’t worry, adorable Alessandra Torresani was 23 at the time, so it’s all right. We’re all adults here.

It’s a little hard to talk about this show without mentioning the way [link= tt0407362] ended. For this reason, I’ll mention a few things about that, but I’ll use spoiler concealers.

I mention BSG because those who watched it, know that Ronald Moore had an agenda. It wasn't clear in the beginning, as the show was disguised as an action flick, with humans = good, Cylons = bad. But the ending turned out to be quite preachy, and I didn't like that.

It turns out, head Baltar and head Six (who until then was seen as an evil force) were actual angels, the God the Cylons believed in was actual real (mind officially blown), and since humans and Cylons had been destroying each other for several epochs, what the Cylons did to the 12 colonies was not that bad after all, though in my book I always hated them because in my book they were guilty of a civilization genocide. But anyway, the writers were smart enough to openly reveal their views on religion only at the end (OK, it was always there, but it didn't seem as important at the time).

Well, now we know what the writers think and, since Caprica happens 58 years before the Fall, we know that whatever happens will ultimately lead to that situation described in BSG.

Speaking of the Fall, it is my interpretation that the fate of Caprica and the other 11 colonies parallels the Fall of the Roman Empire. We have polytheism, decadence, slavery (Cylon slavery mentioned in BSG), social injustice, but a vibrant society that created true wonders.

So we face a few issues/questions:

RELIGION, A BIG STORY MOVER

Can a society be ethical with a polytheistic religion?

Personally I would ask, “Does a society need religion at all?” But that’s another story. Anyway, we have three positions here: the polytheists (mainstream society), monotheists (the STO sect), and no religion (represented by Daniel Graystone’s belief that he can ultimately capture a person’s “soul” in a computer simulation – after all, “the difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.”). The polytheists are decadent (which is represented by Caprica’s hedonist virtual world), the monotheists are linked to terrorism, and the show’s atheist is cold and heartless.

I don’t actually agree with the way they put forth these issues. Many monotheists, actually most, are not terrorists, most atheists I know have sold ethic codes, and most polytheists I know… Well, I don’t know any. And that’s where it gets interesting. The show seems to demonstrate that with a plethora of gods, truth and the notion of good will be diluted in a multitude of divine opinions, while one True God will just show you the right way. The problem being when the “right” way involves exploding a train full of innocent people.

Oh, well, I think, we’ll have plenty to discuss about that.

Another important issue is “What makes us humans? Are the feelings of a machine real or a clever simulation?” Blah, blah, blah. But this is a recurrent theme in any robot/AI film or show, so at least now I’m only mildly interested in that part.

RANDOM STUFF

Excellent casting. Daniel (Eric Stoltz) and Joseph (Esai Morales) really give us the image of men who know their businesses and make shady deals in the shade. Sam (Sasha Roiz) is played by one of my favorite actors, and you should check him in Grimm (2011) as Captain Renard. If they represent the ruling classes of Caprica (the rich and those in bed with the crime syndicate), then no wonder Caprica fell.

I don’t like the wife, Amanda (Paula Malcomson), because the actress always plays the nagging/troubled/depressing wife and I’m tired of that. Sister Clarice (Polly Walker) looks sinister enough not to be trusted. And it’s very appropriate that Walker starred in Rome (2005).

I like Lacy (Magda Apanowicz) - whom I first saw in Kyle XY (2006) -. She looks honest and sincere. The new generation is shown in a more sympathetic light (well, except for the pesky detail of terrorism).

Detective Jordan (Brian Markinson) is a good antagonist for the STO and a fierce defender of the System as he makes it a point to know his “enemy” well. Let’s see how long he’ll continue that way. By the way, Markinson should get an honorary police badge because he always plays a cop. Check him out in Continuum (2012) where he plays – you guessed right – a cop in a science fiction show.

The Tauron Ha'la'tha = the Ukrainian Mafia, right?

Willie Adams, or Adama, is actually Admiral William Adama (Edward James Olmos) as a kid, right? Right? Let’s see how his formative years affect him.

And, again, last but by no means least, I’m impressed with Alessandra Torresani in general.

Oh, and Bear McCreary’s musical score deserves a full 10 as the music really gives the show its soul. Check it out here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhqRXpSL0p8&list=PLF31A6C3B88688B4 D

GRADE

The pilot was close to perfection in terms of story-telling. The problem with amazing pilots like this is that they usually go downhill if the writers don’t know how to develop the story believably and start making up absurd things. But if the show maintained the quality of the pilot, I don’t think the show would've been cancelled early.

I give this one 9 trillion triggabytes of scanned information.

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[–] brimfin 11 years ago

Brimfin, I understand your concern, but I'm not worried--yet--about how they're going to handle the monotheists. While they may believe in only one god, it isn't necessarily the real one, and that could send them off in who knows what crazy direction. I guess what I'm saying is, don't equate monotheism with Christianity. And we certainly know that there are monotheists in our world who are not at all averse to terrorism. Let's see how it develops. And I wouldn't trust Clarice as far as I can throw a piano. She seems to be playing both sides of the fence. We'll see. (dtmuller)

Remember that "monotheist" doesn't necessarily mean "Christian." In fact, this is an entirely different world where all religions would be different. (bob-402-252005)

Just for the record, I don't have any strong religious views, but I was raised in a Catholic society and have taken all the sacraments, and I used to go to church when I was a kid. Anyway, since this is just a TV show, I think what applies best is try to understand what religion means in this fictional universe without necessarily connecting it with your personal beliefs. So, if they eventually show that God is a giant Cylon robot, well, that's what it is, as much as magic is real in Lord of the Rings, something we get to accept even if we know magic doesn't exist. Hocus pocus! And, yeah, it would have helped greatly if you'd seen Battlestar Galactica in order to contextualize that.

But anyway if we're talking about a fictional universe where we can be sure God exists and is all-knowing and loving (something I'm not so sure of in real life), I'd risk saying that in that context, God is perfect, but people, religions, and their interpretation of God's will aren't. Hence, misguided actions like terrorism. (madp)

I probably would have had less trouble with this if it weren’t for the fact I was aware that this planet had a connection to Earth – however distant. Had it just been a totally different planet with no such connection, I might have perceived it as just their religion – no relation to any of ours. But your points are all well taken and appreciated.

Even ignoring the comparisons issue, I still think it was a poor way to start. In the opening, we see these teen trying to lead other teens away from their virtual world of having group orgies and even enjoying human sacrifice. These seem like intelligent caring people, and then suddenly one of them reveals his suicide vest and blows up one close friend, another friend’s sister and mother, and a whole trainload of strangers. And what does he accomplish? Nothing! It made zero sense.

When we see flashbacks later on, he talks about people’s need to recognize the concepts of good and evil and other seemingly intelligent caring ideas – making the bombing even more ridiculous. Clarice later claims he was still fighting evil by doing what he did. It may even turn out Clarice somehow conned Ben into his actions for her own agenda. I guess we’ll see.

By the way, I appreciate all your uses of spoiler blocks in your responses. There's always the chance I might try to watch BG someday, and I wouldn't want to have all the surprises taken away - like when I finally caught the first season of 24 on DVD. By then, I'd already heard (and worse still - remembered) all the major surprises in the story.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by brimfin » 15 minutes ago (Sat Mar 1 2014 17:35:40)
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I probably would have had less trouble with this if it weren't for the fact I was aware that this planet had a connection to Earth – however distant. Had it just been a totally different planet with no such connection, I might have perceived it as just their religion – no relation to any of ours.

I'm dying to explain which one it is... But you'll have to watch BSG instead. That will be totally clear then.

But your points are all well taken and appreciated.

Good.

These seem like intelligent caring people, and then suddenly one of them reveals his suicide vest and blows up one close friend, another friend’s sister and mother, and a whole trainload of strangers. And what does he accomplish? Nothing! It made zero sense.

You have an excellent point there. At least at this point, early on in the series.

When we see flashbacks later on, he talks about people’s need to recognize the concepts of good and evil and other seemingly intelligent caring ideas – making the bombing even more ridiculous. Clarice later claims he was still fighting evil by doing what he did. It may even turn out Clarice somehow conned Ben into his actions for her own agenda. I guess we’ll see.

That may get clearer as the series progresses because you'll be able to see how Clarice's character develops and her actions will make more sense along the way.

By the way, I appreciate all your uses of spoiler blocks in your responses. There's always the chance I might try to watch BG someday, and I wouldn't want to have all the surprises taken away - like when I finally caught the first season of 24 on DVD. By then, I'd already heard (and worse still - remembered) all the major surprises in the story.

Good. I'll keep doing that. But I think you'll have to avoid all the other threads altogether. (Stick just to ours.) I can't speak for the other participants of the board, obviously. And by what I've seen, spoilers abound. And i'll try being as vague as possible.

The problem I have with this how is that I enjoyed it quite a lot, and I still remember it too well, and that's why I didn't vote for it. Not to mention the fact it seems to require a minimal knowledge of Battlestar Galactica mythology knowledge, which could precisely generate the problem we're having now.

I know for faithful believers, it must be hard to dissociate real God from the way God is portrayed in fiction. We keep wanting the things we see in fiction to be in accordance with the important things we know as true. But you didn't have problems with escapees from Hell assuming physical form and being bulletproof and all that, did you? And that part, even if you believe in Hell, is pure fantasy, just an allegory, right?

By the way, how could you have missed BSG? That's inconceivable! Were you living in a cave when the show aired? (har, har! )

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

Thanks for your understanding. Just for full disclosure, I was raised to be a Southern Baptist and came of age exploring Evangelical congregations. I still consider myself to be a Christian but have become disgruntled with what I call the human institution of organized religion which I think tends to insert a hierarchy of human leaders in between believer and God.

And the last point is my problem with Catholics and my problem with Protestants is that a shocking and growing percentage of Protestant churches in my country have had, IMHO, Christianity displaced from them by political conservatism as a religious philosophy, even though I read the Four Gospels as describing Jesus to be the most radical liberal ever to walk the Earth. Sorry, rant over. Although I do admire the Catholics for holding to their belief in Christian positions on issues incorporating those of left and right alike on different issues. (Family Planning, very right. Social Justice, very left...)

Sorry, I hope I didn't provoke any religious/political debate here as I would rather not engage in such on this website. I just felt that full disclosure was called for re. the whole monotheism in the show vs. monotheism in reality issue.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

Interesting post, Bob. As long as we're going in for "full disclosure" (and I think this adds some interesting perspective, even though we've all agreed not to get involved in political/religious debate), I'll throw in my position. My religion is Evangelical Protestant (yeah, that's right Bob, but you'll be happy to know I'm in the minority who believes in annihilation, not eternal torment), and my politics are libertarian, which drives both my liberal and conservative friends nuts. I've never quite understood how anyone can attribute a political position, left or right, to someone who never said anything about the role of government, other than (paraphrasing) "pay your taxes and obey the law".

Bob: I have long believed that the only people who see a fundamental conflict between religion and science are those who have an axe to grind against one of the two and wish to bludgeon it with the other.

I co-teach a class at my church covering the creation/evolution issue, and that's pretty much our starting position on Day 1 of the class. We then go on to re-frame the issue properly, and by the time we're done, just about everybody hates us.

As I said at the beginning of the Brimstone discussion, which some of you missed, I don't go to church to be entertained, and I don't watch TV to learn theology. So I don't expect to have too much trouble with this religion that cannot possibly be Christianity because it exists 100,000 or so years before Christ.

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[–] Mazryonh 11 years ago

Things I'd like explained for me for this episode:

Why was the contract for the Cylon Centurion sent out in the first place? Are the Colonies in a state of protracted Civil War with manpower reserves reaching critical levels on Caprica, making flesh-and-blood soldiers too expensive/valuable even with the monumental start-up and R&D costs a Cylon Centurion would need? Or is military enrollment on Caprica reaching record-low levels with no signs of ever likely recovering (and conscription being an absolute non-option)? None of these logical factors appear to be at play here. Cylon Centurions aren't equivalent to UCAVs of the real world; they have to negotiate much more complicated ground terrain and be able to distinguish between combatant and non-combatant rather than just firing missiles at pre-designated targets or be commanded over possibly-laggy communication lines.

Who made "Strong AIs" (AKA "Artificial General Intelligence") possible in the first place? The avatar tech when Zoe-A was created shows that such AI capabilities predate the work of Daniel and Amanda Graystone.

What are the STO hoping to achieve with their terrorism? As I outlined in my own thread about the STO, they sure as hell aren't getting converts with their terrorism. And in reality we would send internet and drug addicts to treatment, not bomb and shoot them indiscriminately in an attempt to stamp out that kind of "decadence and corruption."

The monotheist code of the STO (and its mother organization, the Monad Church), is what most likely gave the Skinjob Cylons their own version of monotheism. But where could the Skinjob Cylons have gotten ideas like "God is Love" and "Be Fruitful", if not those organizations? Clearly neither of them seem to place any value in those two precepts, because they see indiscriminate terrorist bombings and assassinations as valuable tools.

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

Mazryonh, most of us are new to this series, and you clearly are not, so we're probably not going to be much help. I tried to answer part of one of your questions in another thread, but that's about all I can offer now. Sorry. Don't know about the rest of the gang.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

Just adding to what dtmuller said, those questions have arisen from watching the pilot only, and we (whether we've seen the whole show and BSG or not) are trying to answer them only with the information contained in the pilot. But I understand at some point someone is going to try and answer our questions with spoilers. That's sort of inevitable, but something we're trying to avoid as much as possible.

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[–] charmedwon666 11 years ago

Buckle up and pass the Excedrin.

Holy mackerel. Pilots are pilots but whoa. This thing is creepy and drama drama drama. At least there are no annoying teenagers....Oh wait.
Not a lot to say here, can hardly wait for the next 16. I did like the ending of pilot when the cylon / Zoe came around, that looked interesting but the whole fracking dirt eaters blah blah blah. Dark skies 2 but hey it's just the pilot and I'm sure it will get better.
This greyskull guy is a virtual modern day Frankenstein correct? and he is creepy and very unlikeable. And seriously, Greyskull didn't have a backup of his data before he put it into the cylon for the Beta test? Come on.
All in all not very good so far...I give it 3 trips to Gemini on the Caprica scale.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by charmedwon666 » 2 minutes ago (Sat Mar 1 2014 18:14:17)
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Buckle up and pass the Excedrin.

Holy mackerel. Pilots are pilots but whoa. This thing is creepy and drama drama drama.

Ha! You and I are like night and day. Like Batman and Superman. Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse. Well, at least you can't blame me this time.

This is why I suggested The Dresden Files, because I thought it was a show you and I could enjoy. But, well, not enough people picked it.[/quote]

At least there are no annoying teenagers....Oh wait.

No, there aren't. There are teenagers, but they are not annoying. OK, there was a certain girl who was having teen tantrums, but she was blown to smithereens. As for the rest, they are not obsessed with fashion, what's cool and what sucks. You don't see those annoying teenage dating triangles. Avatar Zoe doesn't talk like a teenager because, well, she isn't human. And Lacy doesn't seem to have parents or other teenage friends. Instead, they are existential and must read the Caprican equivalent of Sartre instead of comics. All is well in that front!

This greyskull guy is a virtual modern day Frankenstein correct?

You got an excellent point there. But it's funny, I like him.

And seriously, Greyskull didn't have a backup of his data before he put it into the cylon for the Beta test?

Another very good point. That's what I always thought when on Star Trek Voyager they kept risking deleting the Doctor. Just what else are backups for? Besides, didn't Daniel save Avatar Zoe to a flashdrive or something initially?

And it's not Grayskull, it's Greystoke.

I give it 3 trips to Gemini on the Caprica scale.

Ha! Same grade I gave to The Middleman pilot. The symmetry amazes me. I feel your pain, man. I feel your pain.

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[–] charmedwon666 11 years ago

Ha! Same grade I gave to The Middleman pilot. The symmetry amazes me. I feel your pain, man. I feel your pain.

Yeah it was rough on me but I did like the ending when the actual cylons started showing up. I didn't even touch on the heavy religious overtone...uhhh

Despite my rocky start I still have great hopes for the rest double episode was just to much........ I couldn't help but think you were thinking....I bet charmed is going to hate this....lol

http://codenamestone.blogspot.com/

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

And seriously, Greyskull didn't have a backup of his data before he put it into the cylon for the Beta test? Stone

Another very good point. That's what I always thought when on Star Trek Voyager they kept risking deleting the Doctor. Just what else are backups for? Besides, didn't Daniel save Avatar Zoe to a flashdrive or something initially? madp

Outweighed by the constraints of individuals. When a character gets to be solidly established as a character, even a character made only of computer data, then that character becomes a unique individual. Therefore, the habit of making and keeping backups must be ignored so that the individual can be only one individual.

I thought the same, even more so, when The Doctor was transmitted through a wormhole to treat the guy who created him for something he's encountered where he is but is unique and puzzling back home. He was gone from the ship when he really was data transmitted and therefore should have still been there at each end of the transmission.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] charmedwon666 11 years ago

Outweighed by the constraints of individuals. When a character gets to be solidly established as a character, even a character made only of computer data, then that character becomes a unique individual. Therefore, the habit of making and keeping backups must be ignored so that the individual can be only one individual.bob

I would agree but he did snag zoe and put her on a flash drive, if he did this he can make a backup, it's just that simple.

http://codenamestone.blogspot.com/

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

I would agree but he did snag zoe and put her on a flash drive, if he did this he can make a backup, it's just that simple.

As a practical matter, sure. Just like Voyager's doctor wouldn't cease to exist aboard the ship when transmitted through a wormhole across the galaxy to the lab in which his program was developed.

I'm just saying that it seems to be established in TV writing that once a character is an individual, then that character becomes unique by whatever the writers must overlook.

I hate to keep going back to Star Trek for examples, but when a transporter malfunction duplicated Riker, one of him became a bad guy rather than to simply have two Rikers running around giving orders as second in command.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] charmedwon666 11 years ago

I hate to keep going back to Star Trek for examples, but when a transporter malfunction duplicated Riker, one of him became a bad guy rather than to simply have two Rikers running around giving orders as second in command.

e

That's true enough but Riker was duplicated into the real world and zoe is still in a virtual / digital world and Greystone replicated what's his name daughter with out much trouble so I still stand by my back up theory, it would have been the first thing I did to un replaceable code that I had zero knowledge of.

http://codenamestone.blogspot.com/

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

Greystone replicated what's his name daughter with out much trouble so I still stand by my back up theory, it would have been the first thing I did to un replaceable code that I had zero knowledge of.

I guess that's one for the suspension of disbelief department.

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

Regarding the backup issue, that was the first thing I thought when the data was lost, "Didn't you make a backup, you idiot!" But I should know better. In real life, I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who never back things up. I'm a "computer guy", so I get people all the time telling me their computer won't boot, etc. When I tell them their hard drive went south, the conversation inevitably goes like this:

Them (horrified): "I have all my family photos / financial records / term papers / critical company projects on that drive! Can you recover it?"

Me: "Sure, I can restore your backup once we get the drive replaced."

Them: "But I never make backups!"

Me: "You will from now on."

And it's not so bad when casual users do that, what I really can't fathom is when engineering professionals do the same thing. So, sadly, this was quite realistic.

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[–] wlcebtg 11 years ago

Agent Stone has beaten the backup thing into me over the years. Before going home each day I back up my LT. It's saved me more then once at home or at work. My weakness is my movies and tv show no backup exist. One day I will regret this. Too many DVD to render to mkv's again. Stone has already brought my network drive back to life once before.

On other fronts I am being pressured by the middleman to vote on this series I will give the piolt a "SIX".

Back to the show who were the Capricans building an army to fight? Were they fighting themselves or one of the other planets.

Up to 23f here the ice is leaving for a while personally I had enough winter from my window looking at the High Five it's full speed ahead. I really don't know how you do winters up north DT.

Usually don't have time to coment on the board during the day but everyones working from home today.

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

wlcebtg: Back to the show who were the Capricans building an army to fight? Were they fighting themselves or one of the other planets.

I didn't get the impression they were fighting anyone at the moment, other than the terrorists. This might be just "we need to keep the technology up to date by building fighting machines". Didn't they watch the Terminator films? They never learn!

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by wlcebtg » 32 minutes ago (Mon Mar 3 2014 10:04:47)
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On other fronts I am being pressured by the middleman to vote on this series I will give the piolt a "SIX".

HA! Good one! And now brimfin has no idea why I said that...

Back to the show who were the Capricans building an army to fight? Were they fighting themselves or one of the other planets.

They were fighting Tauron rebels. There may be other war fronts scattered over the the planets.

Up to 23f here the ice is leaving for a while personally I had enough winter from my window looking at the High Five it's full speed ahead. I really don't know how you do winters up north DT.

Weather is much milder here now. Totally bearable, even comfortable. I'm glad the heat wave is mostly gone.

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[–] wlcebtg 11 years ago

madp

My boss is currently in South America Uruguay I believe is his country of origin. It's winter there now I assume. Dr Bluetooth will return with plenty of ideas as soon as he pops back in.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by wlcebtg » 59 minutes ago (Mon Mar 3 2014 13:02:43)
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madp

My boss is currently in South America Uruguay I believe is his country of origin. It's winter there now I assume. Dr Bluetooth will return with plenty of ideas as soon as he pops back in.

If he's in Uruguay, then he's nearby. And now it's summer here, but the weather is cooler in general in Uruguay.

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[–] wlcebtg 11 years ago

Yea meant to say Summer. Brian not as good as it once was.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

Yea meant to say Summer. Brian not as good as it once was.

I don't know if you actually meant to say "Brian," but it did sound very ironic. I hope it's nothing serious, just regular distraction.

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[–] charmedwon666 11 years ago

Yea meant to say Summer. Brian not as good as it once was.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know if you actually meant to say "Brian," but it did sound very ironic. I hope it's nothing serious, just regular distraction.

Looks to me like Wlebtg must be a replica who's data stream has been corrupted. pretty sure he might be a cylon.

http://codenamestone.blogspot.com/

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[–] brimfin 11 years ago

by wlcebtg » 32 minutes ago (Mon Mar 3 2014 10:04:47)
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On other fronts I am being pressured by the middleman to vote on this series I will give the piolt a "SIX".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HA! Good one! And now brimfin has no idea why I said that...

Actually, I do now. Since NETFLIX had the 2003 BATTLESTAR GALACTICA series, I watched the two-part pilot and the first episode, so I know Six refers to the Cylon robot Number Six.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by brimfin » Actually, I do now. Since NETFLIX had the 2003 BATTLESTAR GALACTICA series, I watched the two-part pilot and the first episode

Good, I'm glad you did. Now you won't be totally ignorant on some important issues in the series. I can't remember well, but since monotheism is such an important part of Caprica (the show), Is God mentioned in the episodes you watched?

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[–] brimfin 11 years ago

I can't remember well, but since monotheism is such an important part of Caprica (the show), Is God mentioned in the episodes {of Battlestar Galactica} you watched? (madp)

From what I remember, everyone in the show referred to multiple gods, usually saying the gods of Kobol, except for Number Six who refers to a singular god, who somehow guides her.

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[–] jakeconhale 11 years ago

There was the odd flub here and there, and Tigh mentions Jesus in the miniseries, as I recall. Though that was said to be him adlibbing and they simply didn't catch it.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

Jesus? I think I missed that. That would be very funny.

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[–] jakeconhale 11 years ago

Miniseries, Tigh and Adama in the Commander's quarters, when Tigh sees the old picture of Adama with sons and Viper.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Continuity_errors_%28TRS%29

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

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[–] wlcebtg 11 years ago

This Friday on “Caprica” ep 01: “Pilot”

Great pilot episode really like the feel of the episode very well done poor Zoe doesn’t last long but her Avatar remains locked inside a computer generated world. Caprica must be eons ahead of us not sure when or if we will be able to capture the image of a person and store it in some virtual world. Always like seeing writer vision of how technology will progress like all those neat gadgets they have. The many gods verses the one God should make for some interesting story lines as time progresses. Zoe was quite the programmer even impressed her genius Father. The computer sheet paper was neat idea I once read somewhere computers will be as common as a pencil if you leave it somewhere oh well just pick up another and carry on. Adama seems to have some shady family members almost mob connected. Can’t wait to see the next episode to see where our journey takes us. Oh forgot to mention love those hats….de

Eighty degrees yesterday down right cold today may be working from home tomorrow.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by wlcebtg » 1 hour ago (Sun Mar 2 2014 11:43:27)
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The computer sheet paper was neat idea I once read somewhere computers will be as common as a pencil if you leave it somewhere oh well just pick up another and carry on.

The paper computer is really cool. Details like this don't cost almost anything and add to the story.

Oh forgot to mention love those hats….

Oh, yeah. Most definitely. Can't go wrong with hats! Humphrey Bogart already knew that in the 1930s.

Eighty degrees yesterday down right cold today may be working from home tomorrow.

Well, I'll consider that your episode grade.

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

wlcebtg: Eighty degrees yesterday down right cold today....

Cold? What, like 70? Now here's a puzzle. It was 0 on my way to work Friday. If it's twice as cold on my way in tomorrow, what will the temperature be?

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by dtmuller » 5 minutes ago (Sun Mar 2 2014 15:14:13)
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wlcebtg: Eighty degrees yesterday down right cold today....

Cold? What, like 70? Now here's a puzzle. It was 0 on my way to work Friday. If it's twice as cold on my way in tomorrow, what will the temperature be?

I have no idea. Fahrenheit degrees are as confusing as hell to me. And just to relate to this board's subject, I wonder what the mean temperature is in Tauron. And if they have gone metric.

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[–] bob-402-252005 11 years ago

I have no idea. Fahrenheit degrees are as confusing as hell to me. And just to relate to this board's subject, I wonder what the mean temperature is in Tauron. And if they have gone metric.

80F = 27C. 70F = 21C. 0F = -18C. 5(F-32)/9=C (9C/5)+32=F

___________

I'd've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

80F = 27C. 70F = 21C. 0F = -18C. 5(F-32)/9=C (9C/5)+32=F []

"A" for effort. A bit confusing for me, though. I don't think I'll be using it, but thanks for the equation.

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[–] jakeconhale 11 years ago

Use the same system I use for dealing with Celsius, just get a few relative points.

32 = Water freezes
70 = comfortable room temp
212 = Water boils
451 = temperature standard book paper catches fire

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

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[–] dtmuller 11 years ago

Reminds me of a system a friend uses for Celsius:

20 = light jacket

25 = nice shirtsleeve day

30 = head for the beach

35 = screw the beach! Find some air conditioning!

And I spoke too soon about the balmy mid-30s here. Today we got another 5 inches. Just a few inches short of the all-time record for total snowfall for the season. We're somewhere in the upper 80s. That's inches, not Fahrenheit.

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[–] madp 11 years ago

by dtmuller » And I spoke too soon about the balmy mid-30s here. Today we got another 5 inches. Just a few inches short of the all-time record for total snowfall for the season. We're somewhere in the upper 80s. That's inches, not Fahrenheit.