MovieChat Forums > The Princess and the Frog (2009) Discussion > Call me crazy but I don't think this mov...

Call me crazy but I don't think this movie is racist enough


Now hear me out I know racism is wrong but I would actually have liked to see more racism and prejudice displayed in the movie by the characters adding to how harsh of an enironvment it really was so the idea of Tiana having to compete against those odds was made that much more poigant. I couldn't help but think "she got off easy" when near the Facilier brought back the memories of the people who discouraged her. I mean if you were an eight year old watching this I guess maybe you would think that sucked but honestly if that's ALL she had to deal with being a black woman in the South during the 20's then she was one lucky broad.

I'm not saying I wanted to see her raped or almost hung or have the Klu Klux Klan' do a number in the style of 'Be Prepared' but dammit I wanted something a bit more gritty. Which they have done before. Mulan was an excellent example of showing the odds a woman had to face in a time where vagina equaled second class citizen. The Hunchback of Notre Dame executed beautifully what it meant to be persecuted and treated differently because of your looks or who you were ethnically and otherwise. It made the world the characters lived in more like ours and thusly more difficult and harsh which made us the viewers want to see them succeed that much more.

In Pocahontas they almost murdered us with how much they were saying racism and prejudice was wrong and unjust. The theme was actually stated atleast once and I do not mean poetically I mean just downright sloppily. Even in Prince of Eygpt they showed the harsh realties of what being a Jew meant in those times and that wasn't even a Disney movie. So you can somewhat understand how disappointed I was when Disney had the excellent opportunity to create a gritty yet empowering message of hope and overcoming but really wimped out instead.

Now people blame this on so many black people complaining that they were going to make the movie racist but to me I think that is giving the filmmakers an excuse as to why they didn't go there anyway. It's not they haven't done controversial movies before. I think it was because honestly they didn't want to. I was part of the camp who didn't want Tiana being a maid (I didn't mind the name Maddy though) however I had no problem with her being a jazz singer and would of had little to no problem with some more Spike Lee-ish drama being represented which a lot of us were expecting anyway.

I was also part of the camp who noticed that the word 'black', 'Negro' or 'colored' was NOWHERE mentioned in the movie and I kind of thought that was a bit odd. I mean in Pocahontas so many racial slurs were used they almost had to make the movie PG. In Hunchback I'm actually shocked they got away with as much racial subtext as they did and in Mulan I would of thought the scene were they were supposedly about to execute Mulan for being a woman would of gotten a PG rating atleast (also that movie had a lot of sexism in it. It was justified because it was representing the time but still they kind of weren't holding back). I was confused as to why they just couldn't tell Tiana "You're black and we don't know if we want you to have this building. Again because you're black" and why couldn't the cook have said "Girl you a colored! You think they ever got let you have your own restaurant!" or even why not have someone say at some point I don't care who "Child it's gonna be hard running this business as a colored" or some variation atleast but no. It was so tame that you didn't take any drama relating to her wanting to get the restaurant and her struggles seriously.

I mean when I say I was disappointed I was extremely disappointed by how little we actually got see of life in New Orleans. I mean even the songs built it up as this kind of great and mysterious place but how much of that did we really get to experience? Not a whole bunch. Also and I know it's trivial but Naveen couldn't be black why? Yeah I know an African royal might not of been given the warmest welcome but some of them still traveled to this country anyway and upper class people more than likely would of treated him or her as they did Naveen in the movie (which was slightly unrealistic but I'll get to that later). Back then even blacks didn't have many rights if an African digintary came to this country back then if something were have to happened to him to her along the lines of a hate crime and international debacle would of ensued. Especially if it was a country like Ethiopia or Eygpt that had a little more stock among other nations there would of been an issue and no prejudice is worth what could of happened.

Also and yeah I know it's a kid's movie I find it funny people were so happy go lucky about Naveen marrying Charlotte because despite him not being black he still wasn't white and interracial marriages were not legal in that part of the country at the time unless I am mistaken but I don't think I am. I still would of liked to have a slight reference to that.

The sad thing about this movie is that if you replaced all of the black characters that mattered in this movie with whites you really wouldn't lose anything. Tiana could of still been a poor girl and still could of been best friends with Charlotte and everything could of gone on the same. And that simple fact makes one think whether or not they made Tiana black just to try and attract the black audience to make money or if she was just an affirmative action princess because people have been begging for a black princess for years. I mean you really do not lose anything if you were to make her white since in this movie racial subtext obviously doesn't exist and any you can find can just be replaced with classim subtext.

Now some people will say "well that's the great thing about this movie it's universal and doesn't harp on race to get it's message across!" That's kind of something wrong with this country today. We like to think race doesn't exist when it does. Call it a social construct or whatever the fact is it exists and isn't going anywhere no matter how much we cover our eyes and say it's not real. That being said by not having any racial drama at all in a movie with a black main protagonist you lose something and that something is called effect. It's entirely possible to make a movie that is universal yet speaks to a specific audience at the same time. Refer to the movie 'The Color Purple' and if you want it in an animated movie I would like to direct to the movie 'Mulan'.

Obviously I am not Chinese or a woman but for some reason that movie speaks to me as well since many of the struggles she faced as a woman growing up in a sexist Chinese society reflects some of my own struggles. I was so moved by the end when all of China bowed to her and it was partially because I was allowed to be taken on an emotional journey with the character. And that allowance was through the themes of sexism and general underdogness that added to the effect of her finally overcoming. Same with Color Purple. I cannot tell you how many white woman I have met who were so moved and empowered by that movie and it wasn't just because Oprah was in it. It was because so many womenhave been abused and put down by men in their lives and those themes along with the slight theme of racism used in the film allowed many women to connect with the piece. Now if they had made Mulan or Color Purple in the same way they did PatF as in say there is a struggle and that the odds are against but never really show it then both movies would fall flat.

PatF is relying on the fact that the older viewers already know their history so they as in the filmmakers will not have to put any effort into trying to tell you. That works for some movies like 'Brother Where Art Thou' where during the KKK scenes we already knew what they were able and were aware of the danger but in this movie where the central character is African American and during this period unless you actually SHOW the struggle and adversity they have we're not gonna buy it. It doesn't matter what I know about history is this is a period piece essentially and if you are going to be doing a period piece dammit you better do it right.

Even the idea that Tiana is poor didn't really come off to well because well firstly they never really said it and two they never really showed it. I know there's a rule about show and not tell but if you don't show or tell barely anything but still expect for the emotional invest and payoff to be the same you've got another thing coming. We saw a hint of her community and there were hints that she was poor but honestly if I were a kid I would of just thought the house was small. They didn't let us know that she really needed to make money and be successful and get out of her neighborhood. It looked pretty nice I don't know why she would want to leave or atleast that is what I would think if I were a kid watching this movie.

To sum it up this movie was too tame and that was it's downfall. It keeps it from being a great movie and makes it just an okay movie.

"That's enough excitment for me I'm going back to Maris"-Niles

reply

[deleted]

Yeah I agree with the OP and that racism/discrimination in context can be a good thing in terms of furthering the story and the themes. Imagine if people came out of say Schindler's list saying "It was pretty good but the Nazi's wern't as racist as I thought they'd be" It would be a travesty to not really experience one of the main themes of the film. Now I'm not saying Princess and the Frog is as good as Schindler's list or should be as harrowing but if you're going to tackle racism even if it's a cartoon - Go for the jugular. When your so disgusted with the way a character is treated that you find it hard to swallow I say the message is getting through thick and clear. I think Tiana's struggle to open her own place could have been so much more powerful if she is treated with a dose of historical reality that most black girls in the south dont get to own there own restaurants. Yes it was the 20s but its hard to ignore the fact that New Orleans had the biggest slave market in the nation and while that may be long gone its a long way to go before civil rights rule the day.

It seems that disney were very PR savy with this film, hiring Oprah, changing the basic story and characters names around - I think thats fine but they shouldn't be afraid to tackle the hard issues. Just don't sound preachy about it - We hate that! Opps...well ignore everything I just wrote...

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

Keep in mind this movie is for children...When I watched Mulan, Aladdin as a child I really had no idea about race...It's really not till late middle school where society forces racial stereotypes upon people.

I saw this twice in theatres and both times there were tons of little girls, of many colors, dressed up in a princess gown or wearing tiaras. They left the theatre thinking Tiana was just like them and she is, no knowledge of race or differences.

Fact: 31.5% of IMDb users wanted Avatar to win Best Picture.
Fact: 31.5% of IMDb users are idiots.

reply

[deleted]

I feel that the references to segregation were apparent. Also remember, this movie is not appealing to your generation, but today's generation of young girls.

On another note, I feel that any more racism it would have veered down the path of a Tyler Perry movie which would have lost a majority of its audience.

Fact: 31.5% of IMDb users wanted Avatar to win Best Picture.
Fact: 31.5% of IMDb users are idiots.

reply

[deleted]

Technically, what Triton's doing is specism.

I don't take any of what you've said lightly and I do think the OP has a good point. I agree up to a certain extent, they could have made more overt comments in reference to Tiana's race.

Children are color-blind until their parents or society teach them otherwise, so indeed to a child 'little woman of your background' would have no meaning. However, this is still a Disney movie.

They couldn't go to extremes to point out racial disparity because the movie would get too bogged down in those issues. The whole tone of the movie would have shifted, not that it would have been a bad thing, but it wouldn't have been the 'princessy' family movie for which they were aiming.

Although perhaps the animators did have a certain responsibility to address those issues when they decided to set the movie in 1920s New Orleans. It does seem a tad craven that they made such little reference to it.

reply

[deleted]


First of all, OP's subject heading made me lol! It made me expect something sarcastic.

I can see where OP is coming from: sometimes racism and other ugly sides of our history and culture should be exposed, not hidden. However, I disagree with OP in that I don't think this movie should have been used as an exposé on 1920s New Orleans racism. I thought the subtle reference to racism in the movie was clear enough.

It should be noted that the important plot point that motivated Tiana to make the wish was losing the bid on the old sugar mill site. She lost it mostly because she got outbid by a wealthier competitor and she didn't have enough green to counterbid (but she would get a whole lot of a different kind of green, later). Her "background" was only secondary.




"That doesn't make much sense to me. But then again, you are quite small. Perhaps you're right."

reply

Agreed. I watched Princess and the Frog again recently and once again came to the same conclusion. I think that the fact that Disney can easily display the racism against gypsies in Hunchback and Native Americans VS Whites in Pocahontas and yet act as if they are walking on glass with Princess and the Frog shows just how much racism still effects our mindset and how sensitive we all are to it. In an attempt to act as if race does not matter, I think Princess and the Frog's extreme sensitivity toward the subject shows just how much it matters on a subconscious level.

I'm not saying that the movie's subject should have been about racism in the 1920's. But look how much they changed just so that they came off as just politically correct enough or not TOO politically correct... They changed her name... Naveen's entire background... her job as a chambermaid... Charlotte's character... All of that to avoid offending anyone. If they had simply made a movie about a love story in the 1920s without all that heavy scrutiny, without stepping around glass, I DOUBT children would have cared either way and I bet it would have been a hell of a lot better than the cute, but incredibly tame/safe movie we got. I personally believe that with all the changes and trying to be careful not to invoke black anger or white guilt, the artists were stunted and could not perform to their utmost ability.

It's funny that displaying things as they actually WERE is considered racist or taboo... I think by being so sensitive and stepping around these things, we're only teaching our children to step around them as well, which keeps enforcing racism and giving it power. When we can accept what happened and not be such babies about showing it... that's when I think we'll be past it.

reply

[deleted]

Lol, yes I live! Funny thing. I came by because I recently had a drinking game with my friends. We said we would drink every time cringeworthy lines/bad writing judgement came up in a movie. PatF got us piss drunk and one of my friends actually got pretty sick after it ended -_-' Needless, to say THAT judgement call wasn't a very good one... But how's you? I'm not sure what board to go to now... There's nothing animated coming out that really has my interest. Cept maybe Brave.

reply

[deleted]

What was Naveen's original background gonna be?

He's a vanilla rapist, get him away from my kids!

reply

^^^preeeeeach it!

You're hideous and sexy!

reply

I get where you're coming from but...I'm glad the movie wasn't focused on racism. It's supposed to be a princess movie, a love story...not a depiction of ugly human realities.

Maybe Cinderella would have been better if the Prince's family refused to let him marry some nobody and instead insisted he marry the daughter of whatever country they wanted an alliance with?

reply

I agree. I know people are bringing up movies like The Hunchback of Notre Dame and Pocahontas but, those weren't princess movies. All the Disney princess movies have been pretty tamed and try to stay away from being too heavy since they are fairy tales.

I'm perfectly fine with what The Princess and the Frog showed. It's the first black princess and I think Nostalgia Critic said it best. Let the kids have their fairy tale.

reply

This crossed my mind as well. I was thinking to myself, "yeah right, as IF they would have been being as nice to her as they were" meaning the whites to Tiana.

But I figured, it would be too provacative for a child's movie. That's another can of worms I guess they were avoiding touching with a ten foot pole. But it did leave it feeling sort of weird -- like, acting as if everything was just hunkydory back then when it was much more difficult (not that I was alive then lol...just from what we've learned.) It was a little too vanilla and safe, which made it ring false a bit. Perhaps a different location/era would have been better.

and yeah. the frog thing bothered me a little too. I'm not sure if it was racist having her a frog most the movie, but it was a little...somethin...Idaknow. can't put my finger on it. annoying though.

reply

have the Klu Klux Klan' do a number in the style of 'Be Prepared'
I would have pissed myself laughing. Omg. Thanks for the mental image.

~*~
"I don't want to lose the boy with the bread."

THG 12/03/23

reply

Ditto,mylovelyfate . That part of the post made me laugh out loud. I know Im wrong for that but LOL.

reply


Well, they just didn't want to take the risk as I do think black people are more easily offended. Hell, just look at how much they had to change while making this film. And Pocahontas gained a lot of criticism for it's too preachy message (though the message is one of the things I like so much about the film).

The sad thing about this movie is that if you replaced all of the black characters that mattered in this movie with whites you really wouldn't lose anything.


That's actually one of the things that I like about this movie. Because they're people, and no matter what color you are everyone has problems, everyone can be a villain, everyone can have dreams. I like that they didn't have to make a big thing about she's black and white people will look down on her, and just focus on a character and her dream of opening her own restaurant. I know they could've done a lot of that with the racial problems in it as well and I know that it wasn't really representative for the things black people had to endure during that time (or even now sometimes) but unlike Pocahontas and Mulan this film was a fairy tale that wanted to tell a story in stead of pass through a message. So I didn't really care that there wasn't an anti-racism message in this film. This film is actually how the world should be, ignoring the color and focusing on the person.

reply

I agree with dogsoldier, it would have been more realistic but this is just a Disney film built up on fantasy...not roots or the color purple.

reply

"or have the Klu Klux Klan' do a number in the style of 'Be Prepared'"

LOL!! sorry but that made me laugh even if you werent trying to be funny. heck, that would be scary but its still funny.

i agree but i like the movie as it is. the only problem i have is, the characters arent as deep and original as they could be.

Sweet as sugar, hard as ice, hurt me once I'll kill you twice~

reply