Was Abby justified? *Spoilers* - Butterfly on a Wheel (2007) Discussion

[–] SamWitwersMine 17 years ago

You watch Supernatural too? Like ya already!

I think that Abby was so torn apart by her hatred of Neil that it broke her and turned her psycho. I can understand what she did a little, but she really needs to be in a rubber room.

reply

[–] angie-belle 17 years ago

WOW... I think she went really far. Really really really far to torture him.

But it was kind of funny at how far she went just to get revenge and teach him a lesson. If I were him, even though I disagreed with what he did, I'd head to the divorce lawyer RIGHT AWAY! How can you sleep next to someone and still love them knowing all about what they purposefully put you through... but then again, that was her point.

"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"--- Leonidas

reply

[–] NoelleLaBelle 17 years ago

How can you sleep next to someone and still love them knowing all about what they purposefully put you through... but then again, that was her point.

Yes, but he put her through pain in that he was having an affair. She, on the other hand, made him think repeatedly that he was only a few seconds away from having his own child killed if he wouldn't do everything he was ordered to, including taking the life of the woman he was having the affair with. That goes on a complete new level to hurting your spouse.

And then there's still the fact that he was beaten up (Tom speeding the car them slamming the breaks, crashing Neil's head into the headboard), he had to stand on the top of that building (did it seem really obvious he had a fear of heights?), made him appear as some crazed, drunken man to the police when he was desparately trying to save his daughter.

No, I don't think she was justified. If she was angry about the affair she should have confronted him and then divorced him, not something as twisted as that.

"If you should need me, tap this staff three times on a wall."
"Magic?"
"No, it's just loud."

reply

[–] jack-sym 17 years ago

that woman was too crazy in my opinion.

i understand wanting revenge on a cheating husband, but to go to such great lengths...seems pretty psychotic to me.

makes a great plot twist tho!

reply

[–] Quisqueya-1 17 years ago

If she had confronted him, we'd have no movie.

reply

[–] rosered1213 17 years ago

You're right. Healthy relationships and people don't make interesting movies.

You watch Supernatural too? Like ya already!

Only show on Network TV I watch anymore. Sam and Dean kick serious ass.

We are not turning into One Tree Hill with monsters – I swear. I'd rather put a gun in my mouth. --EK

reply

[–] kutahopia 17 years ago

The butterfly's wings are "shattered".

< akas.imdb.com/user/ur1619490/boards/profile/?preview=1 >; <akas.imdb.com>.

reply

[–] Writerchick10 17 years ago

Cheating on someone is horrible, absolutely horrible. But I'd have to think that absolutely nothing is worse than losing a child...and even more, to think that it was your fault that your child was dead. If all she really wanted to do was make her husband feel the way she felt than she should have cheated on him. But to make him feel the way he did and then to give that big speech and walk out? If I were him, I would take the kid and get the hell away from that psycho.

reply

[–] katepig 17 years ago

Actually given the fact that Neil was a serial adulterer and a pathological liar, I don't think he would have really cared at all if she cheated on him. He clearly loved his daughter so much that he was willing to sacrifice her growing up in a intact family to have a little something on the side. His behavior killed his family. While clearly extreme, I guess his wife wanted him to understand that, and nothing did happen to his daughter or his job, etc.

Even almost to the end the guy continued to lie. Made it hard for me to feel sorry for him.

reply

[–] SamWitwersMine 17 years ago

Thank you, katepig. I found it hard to sympathize with Neil cause even at the end he put the affair he was having with Tom's wife on Carl (of course not knowing that his wife knew everything already) And Neil didn't lose anything except for his marriage-kid's okay, his career is fine. He thought that he could fool Abby a second time with another affair and it backfired on him in the most extreme way. She should have kicked him to the curb after what happened in Denver but instead she got out her frustration, anger and pure hatred of Neil in her and Tom's little game. Sick, yes, but I can understand it to a point.

Neil never did take her seriously until the end of the movie. She is more calculating and can play the game more than him. Hell, if she weren't so cracked in the head she could do Neil's job in a flash.

What's funny is that Neil became a changed man who wants his family and wife and now she doesn't want him at all. Ironic role reversal here. That was her ultimate revenge I think.

reply

[–] hereugo 17 years ago

Kate pig is as psycho as she was in this movie by her own thoughts on the matter.

Let's just shut Katepig up for a sec.

Serial adulterer: You're perhaps right, but also perhaps wrong. We have no idea HOW many times he did it.

Pathological liar: Ridiculous claim here! No where in the movie is it shown that Neil pathologically lies. Please do a bit of reading on mythomania if you want to understand this more. Nothing in the movie points to a pathological liar, except if you want to throw that around, his wife did show some similar traits that a pathological liar would show (near the end it's all revealed). Even then, though, there appears to be no indication of any pathological liars in this movie..Understood?

And as for her doing something to make him understand, her child would be taken off her instantly for what she did to her husband.

She is psychologically unstable. In fact, while we're on the subject of psychology, she appesred in the movie to be suffering from 2 or more personality disorders, although symptems seemed to overlap and meld into each other.

Possibly NPD and EU/BPD. The girl is sick, needs mental help...her husband, however, seems more stable than she'll ever be, thus the whole point is who is a good parent or not as the movie was BASED on who loves their child enough. Neil can supply the child with a more stable life, comapred to his wife.

Silly katepig..LOL!

reply

[–] Quisqueya-1 17 years ago

It is impossible to have an intact family when one member of that family is disingenuous.

Cheating men don't remain married to their wives because they want to stay close to their children.

Cheating men remain married to their wives because it beats the hell out of paying alimony.

reply

[–] brownguy2004 17 years ago

dont see why they coulnt turn to the police

The cheating wife may VERY well get out of line agains, cause she figure she dont want the Phyco on the street again

Then they have a back up story of him already trying to go to the cops, And police station have cameras, so do banks of them being together the THAT DAY

which hurt the abby story she told to the cops

reply

[–] pattiv21 17 years ago

i agree Kate even after all he had been
through he really didn't learn his lesson
and still lied to her.

reply

[–] caseemarie 17 years ago

Thank you!! I felt exactly the same way! The things Neil did are human mistakes, and while they aren't right, they aren't unnatural either (sadly). But I felt like what Abby did - the fact that she could actually imagine a scenario where her own daughter's life was at stake, and could actually pretend that it was real - that was all just so disturbing.

I think I really was on Neil's side even after everything, because I felt like he was changed. I mean, it wasn't smart when he tried to pass the affair off on Carl (I think that's his boss's name if I remember right), but I felt like Neil just did that because he was so afraid of losing Sophie and Abby again after everything that had happened. I really couldn't blame him there, though I couldn't help but initially think him a heel.

And I remember Abby saying something to Neil at the end about him still having everything, particularly having Sophie. I have to wonder if that, combined with Tom's obvious emotional twitch upon running into his son, as well as Tom saying something about not giving a d*mn what happens to him - I have to wonder if they both were so upset with their spouses and done with their lives that they were willing (perhaps even wanting) to find themselves in confinement someplace.

It's simply beyond words. It's incalcucable.

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] SamuelClarkSC1 17 years ago

Well, given the fact she "Knew about it since Denver" and didn't stop it, no, she didn't.

reply

[–] anda11thatjazz 17 years ago

I'd say, no, but to me it's kind of moot
is that kind of thing justifiable in any circumstance

She was definitely creative.
I figure either she or Neal was scamming the other, from that first carjacking scene..
because during that, you got a quick shot of the daughter hidden and apparently safe,
then back to the carjacking

reply

[–] NoelleLaBelle 17 years ago

Mmm... I believe the bit showing us their daughter was to make us believe the baby-sitter was part of the kidnapping. What was no more than her playing hide-and-seek could be construed at first viewing as if the girl was hiding out of fear and had finally been caught by the second kidnapper.

"If you should need me, tap this staff three times on a wall."
"Magic?"
"No, it's just loud."

reply

[–] anda11thatjazz 17 years ago

Oh OK, well girl didn't look scared
and I'm clearly a lousy movie watcher

reply

[–] nemidwest 17 years ago

No, Abby was not justified! I agree with the original post. I liked the movie, and it was a great twist, but come on, Abby was nuts. I thought that Neil would have needed therapy for life to come to terms with that one day in his life. Putting someone through that kind of mental cruelity is unforgiveable. I am about to rewatch it, but someone tell me, how did Neil get ahead at work. Paying people off to get deals? So when Abby acomplained about spending six years playing blocks with their child, I wanted to slap her then.

reply

[–] desertsunspot 17 years ago

Abby was unhappy not only because of Neil's cheating, but because she had put her own dreams on hold to raise their child. This was a box of her own making, as evidenced by Neil telling her to go ahead and try for her dreams. He wasn't the one holding her back...she was. I think she was just looking for reasons to hate and resent him because she didn't have the courage to leave him after "Denver". I also agree that "once a cheater, always a cheater", and I would never trust a man again after he cheated on me. I also wouldn't stay with him.

reply

[–] trenna-1 17 years ago

Can we say, "A woman scorned"?

I guess we all might have different reactions, but this was too planned and over the top. Could she have EVER loved this man at all and do this to him in such a calculating way? He did prove, over and over, that his child and his wife were the most important part of his life but she just keep going with it.

I wondered a few times if she wanted to stop and Tom wouldn't stop (he definitely made his point to his wife about who Neil loved), but the final scene made me rethink that.

reply

[–] zonistonate 17 years ago

The reason this movie didn't work was because none of the characters had any redeeming value (Neil weak and egotistical), except maybe for Neil's love for his daughter (after being made to realize it by the ordeal). Tom's jealousy was another case of ego and his "possession" (wife) being touched by another man. Possiveness is not love.....it is just that, possesiveness, and another ego being violated. There are three people screwing each other in this movie, not just Neil.

It was a bit too simplistic in the formula and to me Abby was the weakest link.
In the end, the liar and the cheat turns out to be the most human of the characters in the story.

Songs out of tune, the words always a little wrong...Canzoni Stonate

reply

[–] katepig 17 years ago

I find it interesting that there's not a thread on whether Tom was justified.

I also think all Neil proved is that he didn't want his wife or child to die. Certainly not that his wife and child were the most important part of his life. If that were truly the case he wouldn't have been cheating in the first place.

I think Abby probably went over the bend after finding out he was cheating yet again. I'd imagine you would have to feel pretty stupid, having taken him back, to find out he clearly didn't give a crap about you. They really don't explain (unless I missed it) whether it was Tom or Abby that found out first, and who was the instigator in putting the plan together. So perhaps she hadn't really thought it through. Maybe she had some regrets, but after he continued to lie about it, almost to the end, she reconsidered. I certainly don't think it was something a rational person would do, but clearly neither Abby or Tom were rational.

In my opinion, they clearly portrayed Neil as a scumbag, who cheated on his wife, and who cheated in business. While this was clearly over the top in terms of revenge, I still had trouble feeling sorry for him. When it comes down to it, all he had was a very bad day.

reply

[–] Phanina73 17 years ago

I agree with you on not having much sympathy for Neil. He has been cheating and lying to Abby for months... years... She sacrificed her own career to support him, she was the one having to compromise and give in all the time. Neil was so full of himself, he had no clue what he was doing to his family. Abby gave Neil several chances to redeem himself but he was just too self absorbed to get it. She asks him to spend the weekend with her instead of going on a "business" trip but he declined. I doubt any of this would have happend if Neal would have gotten the clue and spend the weekend after Abby's birthday with his wife instead of lying about a business meeting to continue the affair with Judy.
I don't think Neil was truly broken until Abby admitted to her being part of the whole scheme at the end. Only then it finally dawns on him what was really going in and her saying "I don't want you... I am the one who broke the butterfly on the wheel" really broke him because he realized that he lost her.

What bothered me about this movie, and other people have pointed it out too, was that none of the characters is likable. You don't want to identify with any of them. You have one arrogant, self-absorbed jerk and two nutballs who take their revenge way too far. None of the characters learns something, raises above the circumstances... Maybe Neil finally got it and will be a better person coming out of it... but who knows? I think Abby and Tom will be haunted by their actions. But we don't get to see this in the movie... They don't redeem themselves.
All in all, I thought it was a fairly good movie, it was well-acted by all three of them even though loving the actors didn't help liking the characters which I think was the intention of the film, and the movie made me think and made me feel uneasy. But I wasn't really blown away by it.

reply

[–] katycarlson 17 years ago

Hmmm I must say that Abby went a little too far, but speaking from experiance, the pain and anger and humiliation that a woman (or man) feels when they find out their spouse is having an affair, can make you go crazy for a while. Don't get me wrong, she went completely looney, but I can totally feel her pain, and I guess as a woman who's been there, it's kinda funny to see the end, and see a scorned woman get the upper hand. Neil lied like a cheater always does, blames it all on a misunderstanding, or blames it on someone else. When he lied in the car, I swear it was like seeing my husband when I found him cheating, Gerard was very convincing.

Katy
Wife to Jason
Mom to Alexis and Jaye D.

http://www.caringbridge.org/az/jayedavid/

reply

[–] morgana2006 17 years ago

she was justified as was he. they were hurt and pissed! betrayal and people's emotions are not to be played with.

reply

[–] TrustNoOneKMC 17 years ago

I think people are forgetting that she gave him the ultimate test: Was it worth killing his lover to save his daughter. At least in the end, she knew he still cared about his daughter more than his lover, being that he did try to kill her.

On the flip side, Tom proved to his wife how much the guy didn't love her, because he was willing to kill her just to save his daughter.

The fact that even in the very end, Abby's husband lied to her, telling her that Judy had an affair with Karl, made Abby seem more justified. I fully expected him to tell Abby the truth at this point, and was completely repulsed that he continued to lie for her.

reply

[–] robeekay 17 years ago

After seeing it, my first thought was, just hire a private detective, get the photos and then get the divorce + custody + house + the real money in the bank account.
Tom proved to his wife that HE didn't love her.
Abby proved that she is capable of deceit to a degree that makes Neil look like a piker. And for what? The marriage is over. Neil was capable of being a liar and unfaithful but he didn't deliberately inflict pain on her. She was capable of torturing him. Can anybody but a complete psychopath justify this plan to themselves?
If I were Neil, I'd press charges.

reply

[–] picap 17 years ago

Was it worth it for Abby and Tom. Probably not, since revenge is usually fleeting and doesn't sustain one and stooping to the level of the person that hurt you doesn't help you as a human being. But I don't feel sorry for their spouses.

Neil deliberately inflicted pain on Abby when he decided to cheat not just once but again after he already knew how much he hurt his wife the first time (and knowing him that was probably just the first time she found out not the first time). Neil had no conscience and care about the pain he inflicted on her. Anyone that tells his wife to make sure to pick up his suit when he's out of town screwing his secretary is a vile turd of the lowest order. He showed nothing but complete contempt and disregard for his wife in his actions. Did she go overboard? Of course. But Neil is so impervious to other people's pain and feelings that only his own would get through to him. Then again even that doesn't last, at the end he's lying through his teeth and has learned nothing.

Tom's wife already proved she didn't love him, their marriage was over. She knew and said it would destroy him if he found out and yet thought that an affair with a shallow conceited remorseless weasel (and anyone at working with him that closely had to know he was a lying weasel not just on the home front) was worth the destruction of her marriage, her family and her husband. Maybe because she thought it was actually love, and it wasn't. As Neil said and proved, it meant nothing. Maybe proving to his wife that she threw everything away for nothing was enough for Tom, though I doubt it. But what he lost he'd already lost.

Abby and Tom still have that evidence of Neil's illegal activities at work. That and Neil has few reliable witnesses that would probably even testify for him make the possibility of his pressing any successful charges pretty nil.

reply

[–] springerman 17 years ago

******SPOILERS****** ******SPOILERS****** ******SPOILERS******

@rosered1213

I doubt if he could get them charged with anything.
Where's his evidence that ANYTHING happened?

She had already convinced the police that he was jealous of her running off with another man and that he might make up a story.

The child wouldn't be able to say that anything bad happened to her either, because nothing had.

Neither his wife nor the kidnapper are about to say that anything had happened, and I doubt the kidnappers wife will ever "step out of line" again, let alone say anything.

Unless I misssed something, I can't see where he would have a leg to stand on if he pressed charges, and anyway, I think he does really love her, and wouldn't think about going to the police.

~Everyone has a box.~

reply

[–] LeCadavreExquis 17 years ago

You lot are trying to explain/understand the psychology of a character (using ths term very loosely here) that was nothing more than a plotdevice. This type of played out twist orientated thriller defies any rational approach. The end, which is supposed to be a surprising twist probably meant to baffle the audience - such a crude underestimation of the moviegoers intelligence - just renders everything seen before utterly meaningless. It was s_hit and by saying so, I'm doing s_hit disservice.