Part of the problem was that they started out evil
Which never made any sense, there was no logic at all to their cartoon villainy. So, for instance, Lady Toni torturing Sam right at the start was seemingly really just about Dabb's own masturbatory pleasure in Sam torture. Which is more information than I want to know about Dabb, and gag me with a ginsu. But, seriously, if these people were so good at their jobs, they'd already have information on who the American hunters were - they don't need to torture squat to find that out, so ultimately the whole thing was a massive waste of screentime.
And where were these supposedly well-funded researchers during all the sundry apocalypses? Lady Douchebag arrived smack dab in the middle of one of them, and there was zero concern on her part. And why do they even have assassins? How is that part of the MoL job description?
There were no shades of gray. They tried belatedly to show a little gray with Mick, but that didn't last long, and he was just one guy. So they were one-dimensional cartoon villains for no good reason whatsoever, then the problem is compounded by having bitchy Mary throw her lot in with them while treating her sons, especially Dean, like dog crap. And top that off with the moldy cherry of Sam once again for no credible reason going behind Dean's back to side with them too, which made both Mary and Sam look worse than ever.
Then Dabb has to hurry up and try and redeem Mary and Sam, though he didn't hurry with Mary at all, but it's frankly moot because there's no logic to Mary and Sam believing in these guys in the first place, so even spending two seconds with them trashes their characters. Dean at least never liked them and only grudgingly tagged along after his idiot family, because that's Dean's lot in life, but unfortunately the narrative never applauds Dean for his correct distrust of them.
Bottom line they never made sense and ruined every character they touched.
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
Okay I said I wasn't going to do this but I'm weak willed and tired so here goes.
Lady Twatterton - Sun going out and knows that means the end of all creation and so called dedicated mother decides to go to the US and just play blame game with Sam and Dean. Not actually help them stop the thing and do the interrogation thing later but her aim is to go straight to torture porn. Even if she was a renegade member that makes no sense as she knows that the sun going out is end game - help with stopping it.
Protrayal of the UK - started off okayish. When Sam said English, Toni corrected him to British. Guessing Mark and Ruth pointed that out. London when shown was modern London. The every road is warded - big boast seeing how we have lots of roads but she was bigging the BMoL up so let that pass. Ketch when called his home/hotel looked modern.
However here where the bad starts for me - Mitch and the BMol that Mary killed. Both actors who are Irish and Northern Irish forced to use an English accent. Why? Mick maybe but why the actress? Northern Ireland is part of this country. There could have had a nice little nod to the dynamics of the UK if they let her keep her accent and actually had Ruth interact with the BMoL seeing how everyone of them seemed to come from the South East of England. But no every member of the British men of letters seems to be upper crust home counties types or supposedly from Shoreditch.
But then comes the British Invasion where the UK is suddenly Harry Potter land/teenage thunderdome with Kendrick's school. Not only that Mick's back story is lifted from a Dickens' book as he is suddenly the blinking Artful dodger/Oliver Twist as when he was a kid who got caught pick pocketing and on the streets at school age then got adopted by the person he stole off of and sent to a special school. And he turns because the brothers pay him a bit of respect and do things other ways as he never really fit in with the upper crust types?
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
The connection to Europe and the past - Toni introduced herself as being from the London chapter. Which means there could have been others as with her ego if they were the only ones she would have said that they were THE men of letters. But....
Rowena's grand coven got wiped out by the men of letters and she was trying to recruit the ex members into her mega coven at one point. Did it occur to the brothers bother to ask the obviously British woman what she possibly knew about the British men of letters - no!
Aaron is trotting around Europe with a seven foot Golem and knew what the men of letters were. Did the brothers think to ask him if he knew anything about European branches as he has a seven foot Golem killing undead Nazi's. You'd think he may have drawn some attention to himself even if he had been asked to keep his mouth shut. Even if he hadn't heard anything, the brothers called him - ask!!!
Delphine and the WW2 sub. Her mentor being in the US or not, he is not a good enough reason to sit and wait for a green US sub to take her across the Atlantic during the battle of the Atlantic to keep a potentially a war course changing weapon out of the hands of the Nazis/Thule. Not when there is an actual active alternative across the channel than even though she was in occupied territory the UK was getting people in and out of occupied France when they needed to. Why didn't she try to head to the British men of letters? Why didn't the brothers ask this????
Sam and Mary - Mary has now been seen to actively be willing to take part in death squads. Monsters or not, she has been shown to willing kill beings because what they are not because of what they do and to test weaponry on them. The tried softening of this by stating the shifter that Ketch was torturing had killed doesn't soften the fact what we saw her in kelvlar throwing gas grenades into homes and killed that rugaru and have her stand back and watch Ketch torture a being to get more targets.
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PAForrest (158)
8 years ago
OMG, you're so right - Dabb et. al. could have really put Rowena to good use as a source of information for Dean and Sam about the MoL haps across the pond. Aaron too. No thought at all was put into the characters the brothers could have gone to for help.
Of course, Dabb didn't want Dean speaking hardly at all, and he had very few lines the entire season - when he was allowed to participate in any given scene in the first place, which wasn't often. But Sam sure didn't speak up no matter how hard Dabb et. al. pushed him to the forefront; so, again, he comes off so much worse for his silence.
Nobody on this writing staff thinks about anything. They have decent characters they can put to good storytelling use, and they waste them - or unceremoniously dump them.
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
Sam - oh yes the mouldy cherry.
I so agree with you I hated that. He's happy to sit in a room and sign up to genocide even though he knows everything isn't black and white. Lies to Dean ands its in a car and listens to how true born werewolves were wiped out and decides to still work with Mick when he points a gun at Eileen and screams about the code. But he sees the light after Eileen gets turned into a chew toy?
Oh he can go and F'ck right off. His whole speech about leading and not following, please just go F@ck right off. Wouldn't trust Sam Winchester with a pencil after this story line.
Sam and the hunters storming the MoL Bunker - right the Brothers may have been idiots when it came to their bunker all season long but Sam and his rag tag bunch storming the bunker and winning after Ketch and his team took out the US black site that broke the brothers quicker than hell did? The BMoL may have been incompetent when it comes to a lot of things, like facing the vamps but they were facing humans not supernatural beings and had a team trained by Ketch and were on their own turf! That storming was purely to shout USA, USA, USA. Another thing to basically go 'F@ck right off!'
And to top it off Dean trusts Lady Twatterton to help him go into Mary's head. WHY? Seriously WHY? Toni, if she wanted a head start why not put Dean in and then just leave him there in Mary's happy world? Why didn't she just slit Mary's and Dean's throats when they were under then run? To be honest Dean putting a brain washed Mary down is a more logic ending to that story line as brain washed or not she willingly joined a death squad and he knows it! A few words doesn't change that fact that really his mother is past the point of any redemption.
There were no shades of gray as you said PA. There was just stupidity, caricature and bad plotting. It is like this season was a bad horror parody with british accents. If I want to watch that I'll dust off Carry on Screaming
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PAForrest (158)
8 years ago
Oh he can go and F'ck right off. His whole speech about leading and not following, please just go F@ck right off. Wouldn't trust Sam Winchester with a pencil after this story line.
And to top it off Dean trusts Lady Twatterton to help him go into Mary's head. WHY? Seriously WHY? Toni, if she wanted a head start why not put Dean in and then just leave him there in Mary's happy world? Why didn't she just slit Mary's and Dean's throats when they were under then run?
Seriously WRT that horrible speech! And how many hunters did Sam get killed on that raid anyway? That speechifying was one of my all-time least favorite scenes - and there are too many of them to count to choose from, so that's saying something.
I also agree with you about the level of stupid I didn't think Dean was capable of. But Dean Winchester was MIA in season 12 anyway, and this shell of a man we were left with apparently came with no working brain cells at all.
But it just made Lady Douchebag an even more nonsensical character besides when, like you said, she didn't just kill Dean and Mary and bolt.
None of this makes sense!
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aduty1 (160)
8 years ago
"Seriously WRT that horrible speech! And how many hunters did Sam get killed on that raid anyway?"
All of them except Jodi and Walt and considering Walt's history with Sam, and that his partner of at least 8 years died, he shouldn't exactly be spreading the gospel of Sam (though with Dabb I'm sure he will).
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aduty1 (160)
8 years ago
P.S- Since season 8 I've wanted to see a storyline which is kind of where I see this headed in a fun house mirror sort of way. I saw Sam as a John Connor type down in the bunker sending Hunters out on missions, you could say a general. I saw Dean wanting the exact opposite where he didn't want anyone hunting except him and Sam since he didn't want anyone to die. Sam taking the practical approach of the only way to end the monsters was with an army which would result in casualties. Dean would take the approach that no one had to die and Sam and Dean could do it themselves. Dean would get the kills but Sam's way would be more effective. I think Dabb's version next year will be Sam is the General of an army but somehow manages to kill all the monsters by himself (maybe with Mary).
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PAForrest (158)
8 years ago
I saw Sam as a John Connor type down in the bunker sending Hunters out on missions, you could say a general. I saw Dean wanting the exact opposite where he didn't want anyone hunting except him and Sam since he didn't want anyone to die. Sam taking the practical approach of the only way to end the monsters was with an army which would result in casualties. Dean would take the approach that no one had to die and Sam and Dean could do it themselves. Dean would get the kills but Sam's way would be more effective.
Not sure I like that storyline, because unless I'm reading you wrong, Dean sounds antiquated and out of touch while Sam is the big leader who takes over and is right. Besides, that's not who Dean is - he's always been willing to work and play with others outside of Sam.
I could see Sam coming up with plans as more of a MoL General, as I think Carver intended since he came up with the MoL for Sam, and Dean being the field leader and executing said plans - two sides of the coin, so to speak.
But, yes, I'm sure Dabb intends for Sam to remain the one in charge who does everything and commands everyone like he did this year, while Dean ... I got nothing, and I'm sure that's what Dean will get. Nothing.
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aduty1 (160)
8 years ago
"Not sure I like that storyline, because unless I'm reading you wrong, Dean sounds antiquated and out of touch while Sam is the big leader who takes over and is right. Besides, that's not who Dean is - he's always been willing to work and play with others outside of Sam."
What I was thinking was Dean being sick of seeing his friends die and deciding to take out the monsters without them. Sam and Dean would go from hunt to hunt like the Ghoul/Wraith/Siren trifecta. The only conflict would be Sam thinking the only way to end monsters was with an army and Dean thinking they could do it on their own. As for being Generals, Sam strikes me as someone that understands sending Hunters out will get some killed but it is unavoidable. Dean strikes me as someone who is unwilling to put anyone in a position where someone could die particularly if he is not personally there to keep that from happening. Or more like Dean is a front line in the fight General while Sam is a General who orchestrates all the battles from a command bunker.
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
I agree that Dean is a general who fights with his troops on the front line, however the Dean who thinks he can save everyone on his own is long gone. He knows he has to work with people.
Just he won't ask anyone to do anything he wouldn't be willing to do or he doesn't think they are capable of doing. Sure he feels personally responsible if people he's working with or cares for are killed but that is different on going on a one man vengeance squad as he wants to wrap people up in cotton wool.
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aduty1 (160)
8 years ago
I know we are starting to get into an almost fan fiction type area but...I think Dean understands people need to hunt and knows he can't and shouldn't stop them. Again, I started thinking about this in season eight. My thinking is that Sam would actually start sending people on hunts and some of them would be friends (Jodi, or at the time Garth, Charlie...etc). The friends would be doing it because they love Sam and Dean and would want to help. I don't believe Dean would like people going on hunts in his name or to be personally responsible for sending people on hunts he wasn't involved in. At the time, I was thinking it would be about Dean being able to accept help and understand it was their choice. Also, for him to be less devastated when they inevitably died.
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
Well look at Rudy in season 10. Sure he ended up as canon fodder but he was calling back and forth all season and Dean was helping with intel etc and willing to go out and help when requested.
There was no Dean trying to take the hunt off Rudy.
Sure Dean does take it bad when people die but the way you describe it he is still antiquated and incapable of practically ending things. Your description of Sam sitting in the bunker sending infantry out and that being the more practical and effective way to go. No, that is cold and essentially the BMoL methodology with it leading to no real connection to what is being hunted or killed or even the people doing the hunting.
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aduty1 (160)
8 years ago
Rudy is actually a pretty good example. Going by the dialog he called Sam and Dean for at least three hunts. Mark of Cain Dean told Rudy they bailed him out and told him to leave the current hunt because he couldn't handle it. As for Sam, I'm not saying he sits in the Bunker. He would still be going out with Dean. He would be managing hunts much like Bobby either from the bunker or by cell phones when hunting. I personally think Dean is ok with Sam going on hunts with him because he knows whatever happens to Sam he will somehow be able to save him by sacrificing his life. He can only really do that with one person and there is a narrow list of people that can survive long term (we are talking Bobby level).
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
When Rudy first called Dean, Dean was sane and Dean offered to help him and Rudy turned him down and Dean didn't go and try to take the hunt off of him.
Dean called Rudy for help with tracking down the Steins.
It was Mark of Cain Dean told Rudy to stand down and then Rudy called Sam. Sam didn't give Rudy all the info about Dean not being in his right mind, Sam just told Rudy that Dean wasn't in the 'best' place.
Mark of Cain Dean got Rudy killed by him startling the vamp, but Sam didn't give Rudy all the pertinent facts about Dean's state of mind that could effect the hunt.
As for Bobby level calling others to let them know about things in their area - both brothers are capable and shown to be willing to take on that role. Sam being a little better able to dig deep on the lore side and Dean more able to aid in tactical plays. Hell Garth took that role and probably still does it.
But that isn't how you worded how you saw Sam. What you described was the practical efficient way of fighting monsters leads to Sam in the bunker being one of the old men and moving his 'Ketchs' around a board and on occasion going out to accompany Dean who doesn't want anyone else on the road than him and Sam.
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aduty1 (160)
8 years ago
I'm saying that generally Dean has tried to get people out of hunting on multiple occasions. In Sin City he told Richie to stay out of hunting. He tried to get Krissy and her father out of hunting. He tried to steer Claire away from it and he told Rudy he wasn't cut out for the life either. Sam on the other hand has brought people into the line of fire. He said he would try to get some hunters to help clear out Chicago in Bloodlines and brought in Charlie for the Mark of Cain. Dean hasn't really done that until The Chitters where he tried to recruit the two hunters. I thought that was progress until they put Dean in the corner in Season 12.
As for Bobby and Garth, they helped out hunters with lore and cover stor help more then directing everyone where to go (not saying they didn't do that from time to time). It's different from finding a hunt, telling a hunter how to kill it then sending them on there way.
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
Yes Dean told some people not to hunt is him saying to people not capable of hunting they shouldn't or telling kids who hunt not to and stay in school. He told Jo not to hunt if she had better things to do as it wasn't something for amateurs. Richie was all over the shop and it got him killed, he felt Krissy and Claire should be teenagers and Krissy's dad was told to get out for Krissy's sake. He does voice other options and says hunting shouldn't be a first choice but he doesn't force people off the road or refuse to work with them.
As for Rudy, he said he wasn't up for it when he was out of his mind before that, he offered help if Rudy wanted it.
The Chitters, Dean didn't push the other hunters as he found out they had natural plans to get out and didn't want to put pressure on them because he knew they would put their plans aside if they got the stakes because they like he were seasoned hunters.
But they have had Dean contact other hunters and his conversations with Garth, Rudy, the witch who's son got possessed by a demon, Jo and Ellen and even Ritchie show he is willing to work with others but doesn't put anyone in extra danger if he can help it.
And yes Sam is more willing to put people in harms way as you described it. Hell he tried to train Ghoul Adam and got called on it.
But your first comment with regard to this you said you see Sam as a John Connor type sitting in the bunker sending hunters out on missions. Then you bring up a Bobby type role. Which is it you see Sam?
Helping out hunters like Bobby and Garth and the brothers have done in the past kind of indicates the start of a hunting police force. And I'm fine with that. Each equal and and all hunters insight valued.
Sam sitting in a bunker finding a hunt and then telling a hunter who and what to kill and accepting their death and that being the most practical. Well that is saying the BMoL way is best and Sam should end up sending out his own versions of Ketch on kill missions.
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aduty1 (160)
8 years ago
At their core, Dean wants to hunt with Sam and to some extent his extended family (John and Bobby, now Cas and Mary) until the end. Sam wants to hunt with Dean until they end the supernatural and can retire to normal lives. As for being Generals goes, Sam can be more detached and can accept losses better then Dean. Dean was devastated by John's sacrifice up until he was able to pass that on to resurrect Sam. Jo's death hurt him so bad that she was called as a witness against him in the Osiris trail. Bobby's death turned him into an alcoholic Captain Ahab obsessed with killing Dick Roman. Kevin's death caused him to send himself into exile and Charlie's caused him to go Man on Fire on the Stynes. Sam's worst death was Jessica and that affected him through out Kripke's story. That detachment would make Sam a better General in a war type situation where he had to choose who would live and who would die.
When I say John Connor type, I would say that Sam would go farther then Bobby. He would still do the Bobby stuff with lore and cover stories but he would take it further. He would assemble groups send them on missions manage training and take on a General type role.
And I never said the John Connor thing would be better then what Sam and Dean do now. I thought it would be an interesting idea of whether or not that would be a good thing to do. Yes it's a lot like they tried in Season 12 again but like in a fun house mirror. The question was is it better to organize and have a chance to kill all things supernatural knowing you are responsible for good people dying or is it better to take it all on yourself knowing that you will never truly be able to end the monsters. I wanted to see the good and bad of both methods in trying to rid the world of the supernatural. In this scenario, neither side would be right or wrong it would explore it without either being the villain. Sam and Dean would still hunt and be bad asses but the organization would also have successes.
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
Sorry you aren't selling this to me because as you said it is a lot like what they've tried in season 12. Also you put Sam in charge of it - bad nothing but bad.
Because yes there is no secret that Sam is willing to go further than Dean especially when his pride is on the line or he is emotionally rattled. He tried to put a gun in Adam's hand before he knew he was a ghoul. When he couldn't sell his soul for Dean he worked with Ruby, got addicted to blood and continued after Dean got back. He pushed Charlie into a mix she didn't have to be in, he got that moron to sell his soul and did nothing to reverse a deal.
Also look at when the brothers lost their souls - when their ids were in control.
Sam heartless killer who would use and kill allies as well as monsters that he would seek out. He needed someone to rein him in from just taking taking people out if he felt like it, first Samuel then Dean. Soulless Sam said it himself 'things were better' when Dean was around.
Dean losing his soul and being a demon. A killer who would relish the kill but wouldn't seek it out. Unpredictable but he needed a keeper/stopped not because he was going to definitely go on a rampage, he needed a keeper because when he decided what way he was going to go nothing would change that but no-one knew what he'd do.
Also look at how the brothers deal with responsibility -
Dean doesn't want responsibility but he will take it even if there is options of others lightening the load. The guilt with Jo, his feels guilty that he couldn't stop her dying, not so much she was there. With Amy, he took responsibility for killing her because Sam couldn't and he couldn't deal if she killed again.
Sam kind of craves responsibility but at the same time swerves out of the way if he can. How long has the gripe been that Sam owns his actions with a caveat. He refused to see Ruby was manipulating him and when it went tits up he did it because he could cope with how Dean had been treating him.
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fishpan (544)
8 years ago
He didn't look for Dean and why was that. Because him and Dean agreed. He shoved part of the responsibility onto Dean and then got pissy about the guy that helped Dean out because Dean hadn't told him about Benny. It took talking to Lucifer to get Sam to apologise for that.
Lucifer manipulated Sam into helping him get out of the cage when Amara was out.
And this season, his mother and the BMoL have some toys and a speech about how they can end all monsters without saying they get any shades of grey and Sam signs up and acts like a 5 year old to get Dean involved.
There are warning sign after warning sign that Sam sees and he doesn't leave the BMoL because they are 'getting results'. It takes Eileen's letter to get him to finally see the light. For crying out loud Mick waving a gun in the woman's face and screaming about a code should have been the last straw.
This whole season was about Sam getting he swerves out of actually being responsible when he is given the option. That is what his following not leading was about. The importance of him saying correcting himself to I after saying 'we'
Also it was about showing way say having Sam or Dean as a directing generals in the bunker with their hunters as infantry as you described is a bad idea as it would devolve into what the British men of letters preaches. Because even the BMoL way doesn't end monsters, they become the monsters. They kill because they deem beings monsters or humans as something that they need to depose of and they think they are right to do so.
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