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Season 12 (2-in-1) Finale Official Viewing Thread | 22 "Who We Are" / 23 "All Along the Watchtower"


So Bella reached out to me and mentioned the viewing thread we used to have on IMDb.

I wasn't sure about it because the poster who used to make that thread also added in a live recap as the episode aired. This thread will be a little different. No recap, but it's a place to chat about the show and share our reactions live as we're watching together.

I thought we could give this a try for the big 2-hour finale.

**All credit goes to Bella-UK for the idea.**

See you guys tomorrow tonight, and bring some snacks! πŸΏπŸ•πŸ·

In the meantime, all suggestions are welcome.

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LIVESTREAMS: if you want to watch live but don't have the CW or Space, I have livestreams that I use to watch The Flash and iZombie on Wednesdays. PM me if you'd like to have the links :)
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12.22 "Who We Are"
Sam and Dean only have each other to rely on when they're caught in a dangerous situation; the fight between the American hunters and the British hunters comes to a head.
Director: John F. Showalter
Writer: Robert Berens

12.23 "All Along the Watchtower"
Lucifer battles Sam, Dean and Castiel for control of his unborn son.
Director: Robert Singer
Writer: Andrew Dabb


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Well, this was supposed to be the better episode. πŸ˜ƒ πŸ˜„ 😁 πŸ˜†
I'm officially expectation-free for Part 2!

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Wow just wow. Who's ok with Mary now?

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So, this is Misha's 100th episode!

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Really? I didn't know that.🍦

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Completely paint by numbers episode. Everything called out by us weeks ago. On to beating number two.

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THEY KILLED HER OFF SCREEN?!!!

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OMG! Fire them all. They suck so bad.

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They really do. Fuck!

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Ok the nephilm is good.

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That's just a guess

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I hate this show..but I love this show...I do not forgive this show.

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#fireDabb

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Think it depends on how he's raised.

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The show has never mentioned Jesus?

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Eve did.

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Thanks. I couldn't remember.

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Of course 🀒

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"You have an angel watching over you?" Yet another call back among many to previous seasons.

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You big, beautiful, lumbering piles of flannel.

Aww... Crowley...

And just like that, I'm a little less pissed.

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Because it doesn't sound very good for Crowley getting out of this episode alive? Especially if he's going to close off Hell forever.

ETA: Oh. Thought you said you were a little pissed. Missed the *less*

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So just leave Crowley in a Bunker full of magical knowledge and the spear of destiny. Great plan.

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I meant his description of the brothers made me smile.

I have no illusions that Crowley is safe.

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Crowley in that scene was great. He was so Crowley. I misread your other post. Didn't see the *less*. Just saw that you were a little pissed. Wasn't sure if that meant you were drinking or mad about something in the interaction. :)

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I meant I was angry about the finale but Crowley's description of the brothers made me smile which decreased my level of anger somewhat :)

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There's no such thing as paradise.

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Paradise, world without monsters...

I'm going to need these guys to come back to earth lol.

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Oh hey, Bobby :)

Level of anger decreasing some more.

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Not quite Bobby. Alt!Bobby.

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Not surprised, just afraid of what they do to him.

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Bets that the show will kill Sam, Dean, or both and give us Alt!versions of them?

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I thought you were done scaring me, Clue? πŸ˜₯

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Never!

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Don't lie Mary. You wouldn't die for your sons.

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Sorry about Crowley, Vee.

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Thank you, Clue. I appreciate it 😨 😰 😒 πŸ˜₯

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Please Mary don't get up.

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Not sure what the hell Cas is doing.

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So....that was about the end for me. :(

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Which part, my friend?

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Take your pick....so much wrong with this finale.

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I get it. I really do :)

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How is Mary so strong. She's possessed by the nephilim or what?

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Ironic. I had higher hopes for 22. 23 was the better episode.

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I agree, but . . . WTAF just happened?

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Clue, did you get a little bit of that insight you were looking for into Mary's mind? :)

I still don't believe Castiel is gone.

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Clue, did you get a little bit of that insight you were looking for into Mary's mind? :)


Yep. I'm good.

Guess they took aging the nephilim up fast to a whole new level. He might bring Cas back? Crowley's done though.

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Can you share some of that insight? And I ask with zero sarcasm andpromise I won't give a snarky reply.

Yeah, the nephilim will bring Castiel back. I don't believe the writers have the stones to kill Castiel.

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I think for the most part, she was hiding out in that part of her head for most of the season, although not as extensively as when she was brainwashed. The reason I think this is that in there, she was the Mary we knew from previous seasons. The Mary we got this season, the one we've been saying was retconned . . . that wasn't her. She was essentially a less brainwashed version of the woman tied to a chair.

Overall, I'm good with where they left her too. She fell on her face, Dean said what he had to say to her for everything, she went to her sons hat in hand, and they were gracious enough to forgive her. It was only after that she sacrificed herself. If she'd fallen on her face without going to them 'hat in hand' and them forgiving her before she sacrificed herself as some sort of apology, then it would've been too easy of a fix for the season we've gotten with her. I can live with her sacrifice, but I still want the damn answers to what the hell she did in those 10 years after her deal to prepare for Azazel, but unless they get the nephilim to help them save her next season, we won't get that one answered.

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Thanks for taking the time to explain. I'm glad you got at least part of what you needed :)

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Right now tell me that I'm wrong. The men of letters storyline is dead because they are gone from the US, but they still exist running a Harry Potter/thunderdome school and also the writers have done nothing to prove that Henry wasn't as bad in ideological terms as Toni and Hess.

Also they've killed off everyone I thought they would plus Cas, though happy Ketch didn't make it as I thought they were about to set him up with a redemption arc where he would break his brainwashing and he'd go back to the UK to take on the MoL - that would have been trite.

But also Dabb has introduced 2 mechanisms to easily get to alt worlds - the way they were going to extract Hess and the nephilim?

Also now they've shown with Alt Bobby so they've shown anyone and everyone can still be alive in other worlds? Say we see a good Lucifer on one, Cas can be the King of Hell on another and Crowley and Rowena can be a witches who run a tailor shop right?

And they've also announced they are having a sodding animated episode?

Dabb's sodding well introduced a way to back out of this season by basically turn the show into Sliders and bringing everyone back as other people every sodding week!!!!

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Right now tell me that I'm wrong. The men of letters storyline is dead because they are gone from the US, but they still exist running a Harry Potter/thunderdome school and also the writers have done nothing to prove that Henry wasn't as bad in ideological terms as Toni and Hess.


Uh, that's the way it looks right now. Although, I don't think there was ever anything to indicate that Henry was the same as Toni and Hess. The AMoL? Maybe. But Henry was pretty clearly marked as a renegade, not the kind of renegade that Magnus was, more like a Winchester kind of renegade.

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But by the same token there is nothing to say Henry wasn't exactly either.

He may have been renegade but he signed up to the AMoL and was big on the legacy angle too. He was pretty much MoL all the way when we first met him.

His view on hunters had to be changed by working with his hunter grandsons. He exclaimed that hunters were 'apes' apart from the elite that the MoL chose to work with. In terms of world view what exactly is the difference between the way he viewed his grandsons in the diner when he found out they were hunters and how Toni saw the brothers?

Even if they are saying the AMoL didn't act the same, all aspects of the MoL views has been tainted now and we have to ask that behind the scenes did/does every chapter work with similar ideals and were prepared to use the same methods as the Brits. Because my hope that the likes of the Thule being inside the BMoL explaining them didn't happen so I have to ask and that includes would Henry been happy to be one of the intellectuals giving out intel to MoL hunters to kill just because that person was deemed expendable by the MoL.

It is a nasty taint.

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But by the same token there is nothing to say Henry wasn't exactly either.


I think we were shown enough to indicate he was different.

I think his initial impression of Dean and Sam was so negative, because he was annoyed at being held up when he was trying to find his son. It wasn't until after he found out they were his grandsons that he calmed down. That is when he said hunters were apes, but who is to say that hunters in his time were anything like hunters nowadays? There's every reason to think that they knew nothing of lore, were given missions, told how to kill whatever it was if they didn't already know, and then came back for more orders. I think that while the hunters working with the AMoL went after monsters, the AMoL dealt with the big things themselves, like demons, Thule, and witches (hence how they got the codex in the Werther Project from Nadya). It's part of why I think Henry was so surprised that Dean and Sam weren't MoL with how much they knew about demons in addition to finding out that John never trained them as MoL because he never got back to John. Also, we know their initiations were nothing like the BMoL initiations. I get that the BMoL story line has tainted Henry and the AMoL for you, but I'm a big fan of Henry, and I don't think that's going to change. It's cool if you don't agree.

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The MoL has tainted so much for me. The whole thing about them being gone but we know they still exist and how bad they are. And to me there is a difference between, well monsters kill for food most of the time, I get that motivation its evil when you have other choices but again it is food. Demons are cruel and buy souls of people willing to sell. Angels are snobbish douches with insecurity issues who act out. It is just to me there is something worse with the systematic organisation doing what the men of letters do compared to them and probably the continually beating into my head that they have no redeeming features didn't help.

Because even Lucifer acting out even though I accept the stakes I know it is basically him being a tantruming child, but the coldness of the MoL and the excuses given to their methods it chills me more to the bone, the disposability they view everything is even worse than when Crowley kills his own kind. So everything about their organisation is now up for that type of chilling examination for me, Dabb succeeded in saying that Hell isn't as bad as humans. Which lessens demons and leaves a huge dangling lose end with the MoL if that is meant to be the end of them in the show.

And yeah we are going to disagree because as much as you are saying that hunters where different then but I can't help but think of Sam Colt, Eliot Ness and Dorothy.

Nothing suggests that Sam and Eliot didn't know that the had to do research and learn when they were hunting but there is nothing to say they worked with the MoL. Dorothy was treated with contempt and only given the time of day because she was Frank's daughter.

I get you are a fan of Henry but this storyline has to make me question things, was AMoL nothing like the BMoL or a light version of the BMoL or just as hard core and we never saw? If so it could have been that Henry was just in awe like Sam but does that excuse going along with that. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree

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I guess we will have to agree to disagree


I guess we will. :)

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But also Dabb has introduced 2 mechanisms to easily get to alt worlds - the way they were going to extract Hess and the nephilim?


I don't know if the portal she was talking about could go to alternate worlds, but across the same world, like hurry her back to the UK in a couple of seconds, not to an alternate universe first.

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Also now they've shown with Alt Bobby so they've shown anyone and everyone can still be alive in other worlds? Say we see a good Lucifer on one, Cas can be the King of Hell on another and Crowley and Rowena can be a witches who run a tailor shop right?


Yep, but not Dean or Sam, because they were never born in that universe. I guess it depends on how many universes they are planning to open or if this was a one and done, er . . . two and done if you include The French Mistake.

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Basically what they have done is given the brothers a mechanism to move to other worlds by saying there is a supernatural multiverse a la the Flash.

They've also said everyone is different so yeah there will be worlds were the brothers are alive and others they won't be and others they will be different in and depending on how Dabb wants to play it he can use it a la Sliders or a la the Flash or just to bring people back and forth.

But the stakes where people stay dead (which were not much on this show) is now even lessened because Dabb has put in a deus ex machina mechanism into season 13 where that character can be replaced by the brothers taking a jolly to a world where Sam could exist as a hairdresser and Dean is a pet lapdog.

Say they need something from Rowena now, not her brain but just her physically, like opening a certain book - no figuring out how to do the same thing without Rowena, just ask Jack to take them to a world where a Rowena who can help them exists. Need an archangel to handle something? No trying to figure out what to do so they don't have to go to Lucifer - just get Jack to whisk them to a world where Gabriel is kicking around.

Great for guest star spots but not great for seeing the brothers as smart.

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Basically what they have done is given the brothers a mechanism to move to other worlds by saying there is a supernatural multiverse a la the Flash.


In fairness, the multi-verse has existed since season 6, and Balthazar was able to send them to the other universe using a spell, so it's something the writers could've always done, but haven't. Also, if a character from this universe is killed off permanently, that person is dead . . . just as dead as Alicia is even though a twig person is now roaming around with her brother looking like her. Different life experiences, etc. make people different in multi-verses, so finding a 'dead character' alive in a different universe and dragging them back into the supernatural universe would not be bringing that person back. It'd be bringing back a twig person, so death is still death on this show . . . unless someone gets brought back through the conventional means we're used to them being brought back . . . IMO. :)

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And they've also announced they are having a sodding animated episode?


Yep. My guess is that it's something Jack will think is funny to do to them.

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Dabb's sodding well introduced a way to back out of this season by basically turn the show into Sliders and bringing everyone back as other people every sodding week!!!!


Nah, I don't think it'll be that bad. I do think it's a way to reboot the characters if he so chooses, which may make the actors happy if it means they don't have to play the same characters in the same tired story lines they've had for the last few seasons, but I just don't see him doing that very often or at all. I think that Crowley is really gone. Cas, not so much, because I think Jack will bring him back.

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Also now they've shown with Alt Bobby so they've shown anyone and everyone can still be alive in other worlds? Say we see a good Lucifer on one, Cas can be the King of Hell on another and Crowley and Rowena can be a witches who run a tailor shop right?


Someone said that Crowley would totally be an angel in the Alt world lol.

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Human Crowley would be interesting - you know just the publisher who lived in New York but now whose life has been changed after the demon and angel war would be interesting more than an angel from Apoco world to me.

But also part of me thinks they killed both Cas and Crowley off in the manner they did to show they aren't going the Good Omens route. You know an angel and demon who don't believe in the grand plan having a hand in the raising of Lucifer's kid.

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I'm not familiar with the movie but I don't believe Castiel will stay dead.

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Yeah I don't think that Cas will stay dead and hope Crowley and Rowena will be back in some form but not as an easy out, but Vee you have never heard of Good Omens?

You are missing out. It is a brilliant book and it isn't a big jump to think that Spn's Crowley is basically a rift of well...Crowley, considering how much Kripke is a Gaiman fan.

I think even Mark S confirmed that he thought the same thing.

If you get a chance read it or get the radio show.

http://www.neilgaiman.com/works/Books/Good+Omens/

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I heard of it, but never read the book. Thank you for the info :)

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