MovieChat Forums > Supernatural (2005) Discussion > Can we trust Castiel's vision?

Can we trust Castiel's vision?

posted 8 years ago by Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020)
21 replies | jump to latest

From Buddy TV
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"Since he was conceived, Lucifer's son has been a source of anxiety for the Winchesters. The British Men of Letters might technically be the main antagonists of Supernatural season 12 but Sam and Dean have been much more concerned about Lucifer and his progeny. In "The Future" Supernatural delivered a little bit of a curveball by having Castiel switch sides from wanting to destroy the baby to becoming his adoptive father. All of this happened because Lucifer's baby showed Cas the future. Audiences were left out of the loop on Castiel's vision, which leaves us in doubt if Supernatural did offer up a big twist or if Lucifer's baby is just as evil as everyone assumed.

Why We Can't Trust the Vision[/b]
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Castiel is (...) very easily tricked. (...) Castiel has been known to make some disastrous mistakes and to be manipulated into making the wrong move. As recently as season 11 Lucifer convinced Cas to let him out of the cage to defeat Amara and that started this whole sorry chain of events.

It is entirely conceivable that Lucifer's son was just as able to twist Castiel to his will as his papa before him. (...) Communicating through glowing yellow eyes, giving the power to melt people and even bringing people back to life after a bloody suicide -- [b]none of the acts that Lucifer's son pulled off in "The Future" exactly screamed benevolent force[/b]. (...)

[b]The biggest hint that Lucifer's baby is up to no good though is that Sam and Dean were left completely high and dry[/b].
If one or both Winchesters aren't involved that doesn't usually suggest great things for someone's plans. Sam and Dean aren't just the main characters of Supernatural, they often serve as the audience's point of view and moral compass.
[b]The audience, by and large, is supposed to side with Sam and Dean. Sam and Dean are definitely not on Cas' side at the moment. The first thing that Cas did after receiving his vision from Lucifer's baby was to part ways with the brothers[/b].
This could be due to Cas' desire to protect Sam and Dean but[b] it is just as possible that Lucifer's baby wants Sam and Dean nowhere near him as he prepares to be born[/b].

[b]Why We Can Trust the Vision[/b]
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It doesn't look great for Lucifer's son becoming the savior of the world. Still, it might be the far better story for Supernatural to make that happen. Supernatural, and Cas, likely won't be saddled with a baby for the conceivable future once Lucifer's baby is born, whether he is evil or not. [b]There aren't going to be episodes of Cas and Kelly changing diapers and being exhausted with their little nephilim. Lucifer's baby is going to have a growth just as accelerated as Amara[/b] and it might be interesting to have him be the exact opposite of Amara right off the bat.

Supernatural has finally secured Mark Pellegrino back as Lucifer. (...) Between Lucifer and the British Men of Letters, Supernatural doesn't really need another super-powerful villain threatening the team.

(...) [b]The idea that Lucifer's baby will be born evil and will always be evil stands in direct contrast to what Sam, Dean and Team Free Will supposedly represent. It would be much more fitting for Supernatural, and a better story, for Castiel's vision to come true rather than it all to be a trick.[/b]

[b]The circumstances around Castiel's vision are suspicious. It is expected that Lucifer's baby is playing his uncle but that just means it would be a more exciting and surprising story for the opposite to come true. But what do you think? Was Castiel's vision real? Is the baby evil or could it save the world? What do you want to see happen?"

Src: http://www.buddytv.com/articles/supernatural/supernatural-poll-can-we-trust-64404.aspx

Discuss :)

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

If one or both Winchesters aren't involved that doesn't usually suggest great things for someone's plans. Sam and Dean aren't just the main characters of Supernatural, they often serve as the audience's point of view and moral compass.

That's the way it's supposed to be, but we really haven't been given very much of this in season 12, so I have no idea how to answer any of these questions. So far, all we've gotten is how clueless the Winchesters are about Mary, the BMoL, Crowley having Lucifer, and now whatever reason Cas has for switching his allegiance from the Winchesters to the nephilim. I don't think we can say that he and Kelly were possessed even though they acted like pod people. They just seem like true believers now after experiencing their own personal 'miracles.'

I'd say that's a bad thing, but again, it's not like the Winchesters have been right about anything this season (and the one who is usually right has just been going along with things even though he feels like they're wrong), and it's not like they're the ones driving any of the stories. It's essentially pointless to take anything they have to say about it seriously when we know more than they do. The show has never been written like this, so it's confusing, and a complete tonal shift that is highly unpleasant as a viewer to watch.

[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

That's the way it's supposed to be, but we really haven't been given very much of this in season 12[/quote]
That's exactly what I thought, and that's why I'm so angry Dean went along with Sam's BMOL plan because he's been right all along and he's hated every minute of working with them. I wanted him to have his hands clean to be able to say, I told you so.

[quote]I don't think we can say that he and Kelly were possessed even though they acted like pod people. They just seem like true believers now after experiencing their own personal 'miracles.' [/quote]
They also seemed like true believers to me. I know nothing makes sense this season but there has been this underlying theme of brainwashing. I've always seen Mary as a brainwashed cult member high on Kool-Aid and Luci Jr. is giving me guru-like vibes. I think there's a possibility he might be playing Kelly and Castiel.

[quote]The show has never been written like this, so it's confusing, and a complete tonal shift that is highly unpleasant as a viewer to watch.

"I'm in violent agreement with you there"

[–] Pondlass1 (122) 8 years ago

It's essentially pointless to take anything they have to say about it seriously when we know more than they do. The show has never been written like this, so it's confusing, and a complete tonal shift that is highly unpleasant as a viewer to watch.

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head, Clueless!! THIS is what's so frustrating this season. THIS is why I've been yelling at my TV screen so much lately. Who wants to watch a gullible Sam & Dean being taken for a ride? It's just exasperating. :(

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I'm just going to add that until the nephilim performed it's 'miracle' on Cas, his viewpoint was pretty in line with the BMoL philiophy - kill innocents, don't take chances that something born a monster could become a monster even if it isn't monstrous - so him changing that viewpoint seems to indicate it was a good thing, which lines up with what Kelly said about the Winchesters wanting to take it's grace - they want to do it, because they're afraid of that power - and that would indicate that our Winchesters are so not the correct POV or moral compass this season, and that's wrong as implied in my previous post.

[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

which would indicate that our Winchesters are so not the correct POV or moral compass this season, and that's wrong as implied in my previous post.

I see what you mean. I don't think the show's going my way but I always wanted for the nephilim to be evil. I just want Lucifer, his spawn and any whiff of him, wiped out of this show. I'm so tired of him, no matter how much I love Pellegrino.

[–] Bella-UK (1288) 8 years ago

Even though Cas has gone rogue again, it's nice for once to see him be doing something. A part in, the story. The writers finally showing us he has a part to play. He's often gone against the Winchester's so there is nothing new there. But seeing him side with baby Luci was interesting. It sort of reminded me of when Cas wanted to be the new God in S6/7. The Baby new instantly what to do, and how to act during that moment and his power was fully showing us what he was capable of, considering he's not even been born yet.

It's not the first time the boys have been clueless about what's been going on behind their backs, but it's adding a twist to the adventure that I didn't see coming, and that fills me with dread wondering how it's all gonna end. Maybe Cas was protecting the boys in the end or as the writer above says could it have been the baby wanting Sam and Dean out of the way and keeping them at arm's length so he could use Cas and Kelly at his disposal. I am hoping the baby will turn out to be good, like Amara turned out to be, seems a theme of the show in later years. But the way Lucifer acts I can see the baby turning out just like his father. I hope there is some good in him and Kelly has rubbed off on him/her.

[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

So far all we've seen of the Nephilim has been evil. Kelly's hand on the burning bible, the sonogram of the baby with jagged teeth, promising Utopia (the same thing the Brits promised Mary and Sam) by taking away free will, the baby manipulating a probably mostly dead Kelly and Castiel into letting it be born with all of it's powers instead of going with Sam and Dean's plan for removing it's grace so it could be born normal. BTW isn't this the same story as Jasmine in Angel?
It would be far more interesting if it was evil but who knows.

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

the sonogram of the baby with jagged teeth

Is that what we were supposed to see? I went looking for a picture, and the one that popped up is the one below that as luck would have it was on winchester family business, I guess.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/SeasonTwelve/12-17-TheBritishInvasion/12.17_0572_Nephilim.jpg

To me, it looks more like the baby is normal, but a creepy little 3 fingered hand or tail or wings or something is holding it around the neck? I don't know what that's supposed to be.

[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

There is a really bad video (looks like someone took a video of their TV) that shows a side view of the baby opening it's mouth and you can see the teeth. Then the baby turns it's head towards the Dr. with it's mouth open. That was why the Dr had a reaction and Dagon planted the "everything looks fine" thought in his head so as not to alert/alarm Kelly.
Also ignore the top of the baby's head this shot was taken mid head turn. Look at the head at the bottom of the picture and you can clearly see the open mouth teeth.

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Okay, but then why would siphoning off the grace change that morphological change of sharp teeth . . . and for that matter, why would it have sharp teeth? Fetus's don't have teeth . . . well, they do, but their teeth don't break through the gums until they're at least 6 months old. I get that it's aging quickly, but even if it's gestation is sped up by 4 months, shouldn't it still follow the basic principles of not getting teeth until it's 2-3 months old? Does this mean that we're looking at a chestburster scene in the finale?

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I just watched it. I'm not seeing teeth. He seemed more concerned when it was enlarged with the clearer picture, and we see the dark shadow. It still doesn't answer my questions on why getting rid of the grace would change any of that. Starting to want a chestburster scene now though.

[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

That would be awesome!!

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

It really would.

[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

Starting to want a chestburster scene now though

Poor Kelly lol.

[–] Denese121 (135) 8 years ago

Ooh! Chestbuster! Yes!!

[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

Yeah, whatever's going on in the neck area is really creepy. Ew. That doesn't look like a good and pure soul to me, sorry (I need this kid to be evil so bad lol).

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

And I have another question. If that dark mark on the picture is part of the baby, then how would siphoning off its grace change or remove that in any way? Is it supposed to be something or nothing? I mean, it must be something, because it freaked the doctor out, but would removing its grace alter morphological changes like that?

[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

The grace extraction is just a concept at this stage in the game. There's no telling if it would actually work. I would honestly hate it if it did.

I'm adamant that archangels and angels are not made of the same thing (Chuck was clear about that) and that archangel essence should be a LOT more powerful than mere angel essence. The idea that you could drain the archangel out of that baby with a needle bugs me.

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Worst amniocentesis ever.

[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

So far all we've seen of the Nephilim has been evil. Kelly's hand on the burning bible, the sonogram of the baby with jagged teeth, promising Utopia (the same thing the Brits promised Mary and Sam) by taking away free will, the baby manipulating a probably mostly dead Kelly and Castiel into letting it be born with all of it's powers instead of going with Sam and Dean's plan for removing it's grace so it could be born normal.

I agree. Nothing I've seen so far tells me this baby is "good". I came away with the impression that he might be manipulating Kelly to ensure his survival.

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

If they are really going with the baby being evil, then maybe that's not even her. Maybe it's just reanimating her, and her soul went on already or something.