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That was one of the most beautiful endings?

posted 8 years ago by Bella-UK (1288)
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Dean: What do you think our Legacy is gonna be? When were gone a 100 years from now?
Sam: People we've saved our are Legacy. We left the world a better place than what we found it in.

Dean then carves his initials into the bunker desk. I just loved this scene and felt the brothers were back and at first, I felt concerned for Dean, wondering where this was coming from, had something got to him whilst being held captive? Was his mind working overtime? Where do you think Dean was coming from? Why was he in a reflective mood?

I love this new writer.

Thoughts....

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Uh, I'm just going to copy and past parts of previous posts that I've written about why I think Dean brought it up and maybe add a few bits and pieces in between to make it clearer.

When Dean and Sam were first talking to the sheriff, Dean made it abundantly clear, he still despises working with the BMoL in the way he says, "Just following orders," followed up with an eye-roll. Sam picked up on the shade Dean threw, got uncomfortable, and then ignored it.

"I liked the sheriff straight away. He seemed like a guy who was burned out, someone who used to care, but doesn't anymore, because nothing ever comes from doing or trying to do the right thing (For instance, trying to take the kid killed in the woods from a bad home didn't work out, and then the kid ended up having to take care of his abusive father after his father had a stroke). He's interested in anything but the job," i.e. taxidermy; I thought this set him up as a parallel to Dean, and then in the next scene we have . . .

Dean being extremely needy with the waitress in the diner. He was barely interacting with Sam the whole time just like he was barely interacting with Sam while he was cleaning the Colt back at the bunker. It comes across as him being shut down on Sam and this BMoL case.

Then we found out that the sheriff owned the meat packing plant, his family's business, and are told that it's failing because he didn't have any interest in it anymore - the family business is barely functioning and if it fails, the town will go under.

The guy who was behind the kids disappearing and aiding and abetting the monster by knocking innocents out and taking them to the monster to be killed - I thought this might be a parallel to Sam and the BMoL even before they said the guy was the sheriff's brother.

"As with the Colt and sex, Dean's more interested in his burger than anything else. I got a MoC Dean vibe about how he's trying to relish in things he normally would to create the illusion he's okay, but he's not ("I think questioning their legacy, what they'll leave behind, etc. is giving us some insight on where he is this season when everyone around him is telling him that what he's spent his whole life doing is wrong, has been done the wrong way, or wasn't good enough - his Mom, Sam - not so much Cas, but Cas has disappeared without a trace. Dean feels left behind, and the show is showing us that he's being left behind when it comes to his lack of presence/importance when a hunt has anything to do with the BMoL - IMO)."

When Dean and Sam found the sheriff's murder room in the basement, the sheriff started talking about how his family had a secret, and Dean's like 'The best ones do,' because obviously the Winchesters have been living with a secret of their own for their entire lives. The sheriff's put a stop to his family's dark legacy by locking it away and wanting to help people. This parallels Dean's thoughts on hunting going all the way back to episode 1.2 (Saving people comes before killing things).

Then we have the sheriff's brother saying a reversal of what Dean said about the family business (I was already thinking about episode 1.2 because of what the sheriff had said and then the sheriff's brother came out with a 'hunting people, killing them, the family business,')

What's killing a few innocents if it saves the town? Parallel to Sam and his philosophy change that makes him line up with the BMoL this season. I'd think at this point that maybe the parallel was with either Sam or the BMoL, because of the half-brother thing and the BMoL being like a half-brother of the Winchester legacy, but then we have the sheriff and his brother talking about the plan, the brother saying, he's being following it his whole life and had gotten nothing but crap for it - this to me makes it clearer it's Sam. He's saving the town. He's the hero, etc. And then Sam kills him and is the hero by bursting into the freezer to kill Moloch (something he's been doing ever since they started working with/for the BMoL and using their weapons - the same way the sheriff's brother was planning on the riches (Sam's normal life) and saving the town by working with Moloch).

More legacy talk from the sheriff when his brother's dead. "This is my legacy."

The next scene is Dean talking about legacy at the bunker sealing his parallel with the sheriff.

Sorry, Bella, but I did not like the brothers carving letters into the table, because I didn't think it fit. If you're going to pull out the big guns like that, then you need to save it for a more meaningful episode - unless the Bunker is about to go bye bye, the brothers are about to be on the outs over the BMoL and Mary, or one of the brothers is about to die, it didn't fit in at this point in the season. If this changes at any point in the next few episodes, then I may revise my opinion of it, but right now - not a fan.

[–] PAForrest (158) 8 years ago

Unless or until the real Dean Winchester returns to the show - the one who is fully present in the story, is allowed to be the hero even if only occasionally, who has an equal lead role to play and isn't forced to stand four paces behind Sam and made mute around all guest stars or anyone else lest he take a single line away from Sam - then, no, I'm unmoved by whatever meaningless artificial broment this guy masquerading as Dean Winchester does, because the showrunners and writers themselves have rendered the character meaningless.

Therefore the act/moment/scene is a sham.

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

"Therefore the act/moment/scene is a sham."

It certainly felt shoehorned into not just the episode, but the season we've had, because it came from out of nowhere. It was almost like they caught wind of a lot fans not being happy with how the brothers were being written, thought, "Oh crap, we had no idea people wanted them to talk about real things on screen," and decided to throw them a bone with a rehash of Swan Song to keep them happy. If Dean is miserable, as I suspect (I can't see anything else of relevance for him at this point - means I'm probably wrong because of how hard I've had to look to find it), then him being miserable because of what his family is putting him through is not something a 'Yay, look at the brothers be brothers,' moment is going to fix or make in any way meaningful for me until his place within the family is fixed.

[–] louise897 (30) 8 years ago

I liked it too, Bella. I know a lot of fans don’t like how they feel Dean is being portrayed. After reading several posts, I went back and watched the episode again to try to see their point of view, but I still don’t get it. To me, it was Dean being Dean. And I loved it.

Dean’s main concern (emphasized by his repeatedly calling Cas) is finding Kelly and Dagon. The BMoL don’t own Dean Winchester. There was a job to do, and he showed up to do his part, but he showed a basic level of concern and interest and he left time for hooking up with the waitress. And for all the “fun” weapons the BMoLs tried to tempt the Winchesters with Dean was content to hunt with the colt. He doesn’t need an arsenal, or angel blades (or even his angel bff) to be the bad-ass hunter he has always been. The colt, his brother, a burger, and a willing woman… the rest was, as he told Sam, “…you know, normal.”

I also like that Sam is acting more like his big brother on cases. Yes, he is his own man, but after all these years, it’s nice to see him working cases and killing monsters like the brother he’s been watching and learning from all this time.

I thought it was a nice MOtW episode. I like it when the Winchesters are not fighting or hiding things from each other. When they’re just hunting together- being brothers, and teammates and friends. And I liked that even though they seemed to accept that the world would not remember them or what they’ve given to save it, they couldn’t resist leaving their “mark” behind. Like after weighing the good and the bad they still have a sense of pride in who they are. IMO, it was a nice moment.

[–] Bella-UK (1288) 8 years ago

And I liked that even though they seemed to accept that the world would not remember them or what they’ve given to save it, they couldn’t resist leaving their “mark” behind. Like after weighing the good and the bad they still have a sense of pride in who they are. IMO, it was a nice moment.

THIS^^ beautifully put Louise, just what I would have said.

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

But don't you guys think that it was an odd place for such a moment? I don't mean in the episode, because a moment like this would come at the end of an episode, but the episode itself. If you wanted a nice understated final scene (ever of the series - or maybe of the penultimate episode before they go out in a blaze of glory in the final episode of the series), then it would've been fitting and nice, and I'd have no problem with it, but here, it just seems . . . almost wasted. Unless something very bad is about to happen, something worse than we've ever seen them go through including Sam going into the cage, then it would make sense as some kind of foreshadowing. I don't think it's foreshadowing anything immediate, more like something that will happen by the end of the season, but something significant and more than just losing their Mom. Until I know what it is foreshadowing, I don't think I like it. If the payoff warrants it, then I might change my mind.

[–] Bella-UK (1288) 8 years ago

Clue, I get what you're saying, and now you come to mention it I get why you feel it's a strange place to put it. If it was/is present tense foreshadowing something then at this point we don't exactly know. It did at first feel a strange thing that Dean would come out and say, as Sam didn't really know how to react to it. He only started to feel comfortable when Dean started the carving process on the desk. As there is no real tension of a battle emerging with angels or demons where they feel that their life might be in imminent danger. Because thinking back that's when the brothers would become more emotional about one another's feelings and closeness. Dean knew Sam was going to hell when he came out and had that talk with Sam on the Car bonnet at Bobby's. They had some idea of what they were facing. This time nothing heavy is looming, so why?

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

This time nothing heavy is looming, so why?

Exactly! If that was the last scene of the series and then they had the camera lingering on their initials, then I'm sure I would've teared up, but why is it here in this episode?

[–] Pondlass1 (122) 8 years ago

Pure unadulterated audience manipulation. They throw us crumbs when we want the whole loaf.

These writers no longer write for the invested, loyal fan - they write for the casual viewer. The deeper you look the more you realize nothing make any damn sense. It's just a series of them trying to shock and awe us.

[–] RizRax (9) 8 years ago

This thread has my head in a spin.....but in a good way.
I think Dean has lost his way. It's like he has met God & now become completely overwhelmed with life, his role, what he is meant for, whether everything is all predestined, whether he even has to try, does any of it really matter anyway.... This whole season has felt like he's just going through the motions. Now, I'm hoping (everything crossed for the finale) that the writers will go there and really allow him to express this. If this is all in my head - which is entirely possible - then I am fearful for the end of this season. It will feel like they have just pushed through a mediocre season, neglecting Dean with poor writing rather than intentionally building towards something huge for him. Be clever, writers, please! Don't have been lazy and just leave us with the MoL storyline and Lucifer's baby.

One positive for this season though - I have LOVED Sam. He seems to have matured so much suddenly and although I have not agreed with his choices he has really impressed me.

[–] louise897 (30) 8 years ago

" it would make sense as some kind of foreshadowing"

Isn't foreshadowing situations to come kind of the basis of this entire series? Figuring out what they meant by that/what's to come is half the fun of watching for me. We're just about 80% through the season, so I expect the whole "what is our legacy" question will be addressed in the next few episodes. What we know so far:
- Even though they were raised as hunters, Henry pointed out that they are also legacies to the Men of Letters.
- The MoL were researchers and chroniclers; their approach to killing monsters and witches was cold and brutal. Their method was to use others (trusted hunters) to do the dirty work.
- After being expelled from the MoL, Magnus continued to collect both monsters and weapons to defeat them. That's something the BMoL are also doing. And they seem particularly obsessed with getting the Colt.
- Dean is content to be a hunter. Sam seems to want to work with/use the knowledge of the MoL to eradicate more monsters. We've heard Dean warn Sam several times this season that he needs to "pick a side."
- Ketch and his men have gone through every inch of the Bunker. Mick noted that their keys can open any MoL safe house in the world.

If I was to speculate, my guess is that Dean is ready to go back to just being a hunter; that is the legacy he wants to leave. I think he may even be willing to walk away from the bunker and go back to living on the road. Sam will go with him, but I think he will want to do whatever he can to preserve the "good" that the MoL have left behind. And of course there's Lucifer's baby. How to deal with the child may be a rift that forces the brothers to split up. I hope not- I like when they are working together and being friends, but we're due for some drama so this might be it. And down the line, as Dean suggested, the bunker can always be left to some other hunters (if they choose to go in that direction for a spin off.)

I'm usually wrong when I try to guess at where the story is going but that's my prediction for why they chose now for the legacy talk.

[–] jpollock73 (799) 8 years ago

I think it had the potential to be a great ending just not in this episode imo. If they were leaving the bunker for good it would make for a nice goodbye. This happening now with the fans not sure what is happening with any of the story lines was just not the right moment for it. But maybe it will make more since as the season finale comes and it will be a more powerful scene.

[–] louise897 (30) 8 years ago

But isn't that the point of foreshadowing? To alert you that something is coming... to build anticipation? At the end of Dog Dean Afternoon, when Sam asks Dean why the chef asked what Sam was, Dean casually replies that the guy was crazy, but then adds more seriously and reflectively, "He was possessed by something he couldn't control. It was... It was a matter of time before it completely took over." We may not have known what was going to happen when Sam found out he was possessed (Metatron, Gadreel, the broken spell, Kevin's death), but it was pretty clear from that scene that the consequences would be big; not just for Sam but also for Dean.

I'm just guessing that they may be leaving the bunker. I could be way off on that. But when you start talking about legacy- about what you're leaving behind, it's a pretty good hint that something big is about to change. And if that's the case, I'd rather see a nice thoughtful moment now than have it lost during the potential chaos when that change (whatever it may be) takes place, or be diminished as an epilogue after the fact.

It's just my preference in storytelling.

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Isn't foreshadowing situations to come kind of the basis of this entire series?

Sure, foreshadowing is often littered throughout the show.

Dean being Michael's vessel in season 5 was foreshadowed in season 4 when Zachariah, while standing in front of a painting of Michael, told Dean that they didn't want him to stop Lucifer from rising but to help them defeat Lucifer (The painting of Michael in Houses of the Holy wasn't foreshadowing, because at that point, Kripke had no interest in having angels in the show and therefore it doesn't count even though I'm sure that the painting behind Zachariah was used because of the painting in Houses of the Holy, so we would know it was a painting of Michael). Azazel asking if Dean was sure that he really brought back his brother foreshadowed Sam going dark (prior to the writer's strike, Sam was supposed to go dark to save Dean from his deal, and at that point of the season, that's probably where they thought it was going to go. They ran out of time and had Sam go dark in season 4 instead, but it still counts, because it was the plan all along). Dean giving the Zanna girl a speech about revenge that set her up to hear Sully's apology and forgive him foreshadowed Dean doing the same thing with Amara, so she'd make up with Chuck. If I didn't know any better, I'd say Mary being possessed by that spirit in The Foundry and Dean's reaction to it was foreshadowing Mary being Lucifer's vessel, but I don't think that's that big of a deal anymore now that the magic egg has been introduced. Plus, I'm not sure they'd give Mark P. up for that (Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it will still happen, and the conflict will be do they go with technology the BMoL have to save her or do they try to find a different way once they find out what the BMoL are all about?)

If the carving scene is foreshadowing, then for the writers to pull something out that has such sentimentality attached to it, it'd have to foreshadow something big. It could be that either Dean and Sam are going to die, but for it to have any real meaning, it'd have to be for good given the importance of the last time we were shown them carving their initials into anything. We all know neither one of them are going to die for good until the very end, so it's not that. It could be that they're going to break up for an extended period of time, much longer than they have in the past. It could be something Dean and Sam decide or something that's decided for them . . . something to do with them being together now and not together in the future. This is something I'm sure would anger fans to no end, so it probably won't happen either. Possibly it could be a clue that the bunker is going to be destroyed, but for the pay off to the clue we were given to be big enough for me, I think it'd have to be bigger than that, because while I like that they have a home at the bunker, the Impala is their true home. Besides, I'm not sure they would get rid of the bunker as a matter of set costs.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if it wasn't foreshadowing and was just meant to be a sentimental scene, it doesn't work for me, because it feels like they're trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator instead of giving us the brothers' relationship in any meaningful way the rest of the season. If it was foreshadowing, I guess it depends on what it was foreshadowing as to whether or not I'll think it was worthwhile. Even then it will probably depend on whether or not it was too obvious. Until I get the whole story, I can't say one way or the other. It's kind of the way I've felt about this episode in general. Depending on how future episodes play out, my opinion of this episode and a few others may change. :)

[–] louise897 (30) 8 years ago

If the carving scene is foreshadowing, then for the writers to pull something out that has such sentimentality attached to it, it'd have to foreshadow something big.

I do think something big is coming, although for the life of me I can't figure out what. I was thinking they may be leaving the bunker for a while (or permanently) but I could be wrong. As you say, set costs.

[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

I agree that ending was sweet but kind of came out of nowhere. The brothers relationship has not been a priority for Dabb this season so the sentimentality fell kind of flat.