Rate 12.18 - The Memory Remains - Supernatural (2005) Discussion

[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

So didn't Mrs Hess tell Mr Ketch to kill the Winchesters starting with Dean? Isn't that where this whole season began? Why all the subterfuge in the Bunker? The Brits can waltz in and out whenever they want (why haven't the brothers installed a seperate lock) why not just kill the Winchesters in their sleep? Why send them on hunts? I'm missing something.
It was ok. I liked the talk about leaving legacies in the end. It was a nice moment between the brothers. The rest was pretty much paint by numbers MOTW.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 8 years ago

I am beyond angry over this episode. I rate it a 0 or lower if we can give a negative score. I cannot make any excuses anymore. Dab and Singer think of Dean as nothing more than the silly sidekick. Dean is a cheesy pickup line using womanizer with bad eating habits. A damsel in distress who bungles around getting beat up by losers and can't even fight without getting his weapon caught up in hanging meat so Super Sammy can save him. An insecure mess who needs Sam to validate his work.

I can't say this is due to scheduling. Sam and Dean were in most every scene. This is intentional. They hate Dean and want Sam to be the hero. I am particularly upset because I thought Dean would get to finally use the colt. Every photo and the trailer showed Dean with it. But once again....Sam.
I am glad there is a break. I really don't think I can watch this show anymore. Every episode is worse then the last and the writers only care about Sam.

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[–] Strannger (2007) 8 years ago

I thought it was obvious for a while since Sam got storylines. Season ten was Dean's finally

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[–] PAForrest (158) 8 years ago

I don't watch anymore, I wait to hear what Dean fans say, and so many of them are livid, even more so this week than all the rest. Another episode deleted unwatched. That's an automatic 0/10.

At this point it's impossible not to see that it's a pattern and an edict from on high, which is why every single writer now is writing the same damn thing - keeping Dean down, ridiculous, out of the action, and when it comes to the hero moment, please, Jensen may as well stay at home permanently.

I know they negotiated for time off, but did Jensen Ackles really want his character demoted, utterly destroyed, and reduced to a drinking game meme? He's always been protective of the character before - now it's like he either doesn't care or has given up in the face of a showrunner who clearly has no use for him.

I know Jensen is getting paid a lot of money to do nothing now, but his fans aren't and don't have to stick around.

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[–] Strannger (2007) 8 years ago

I don't think Jenson would be thrilled. I actually think Dean deserves better. I hope they can fix what they are doing with him and actually give the role more meat. So far Dean is running on fumes

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

7/10 if they follow up on Dean's storyline from this. 5/10 if not because of the BMoL and relegating Dean for no reason.

Pretty obvious that the guy who killed the first kid was a guy in a goat suit because the way it was shot made it look as if someone were looking out of a mask at the kid tied to a tree, and it looked like a guy in a goat costume when we saw his friend witness the death.

Dean still continues to despise working for the BMoL. "Just following orders," followed up with an eye-roll, and Sam picking up on the shade Dean threw, being uncomfortable, but ignoring it.

I liked the sheriff straight away. He seemed like a guy who is burned out, someone who used to care, but doesn't anymore, because nothing ever comes from doing or trying to do the right thing (For instance, trying to take the kid killed in the woods from a bad home didn't work out, and then the kid ended up having to take care of his abusive father after his father had a stroke). He's interested in anything but the job. Parallel to Dean?

Dean was extremely needy with the waitress in the diner. He was barely interacting with Sam the whole time just like he was barely interacting with Sam while he was cleaning the Colt back at the bunker. It comes across as him being shut down on Sam and this BMoL case. The sheriff also owns the meat packing plant, his family's business, but he doesn't have interest in that anymore either. I'm seeing another parallel with Dean.

The monster in the freezer was obviously a monster and not the guy in the goat costume. The guy in the goat costume has to work at the meat packing plant, because the way he stuns people by hitting them with the mallet is similar to how a mallet would be used to stun a cow. My money was on it being Darren's (the kid in the freezer) supervisor (I was right). He's knocking kids out and taking them to the monster to kill. Sam and the BMoL parallel?

As with the Colt and sex, Dean's more interested in his burger than anything else. I get a MoC Dean vibe about how he's trying to relish in things he normally would to create the illusion he's okay, but he's not.

I'm so annoyed by the BMoL once again doing something behind the Winchesters' backs. It's been happening all season. This kind of dramatic irony where the audience is more informed than the characters and therefore has a different take on what is happening in the show works in the short-term, like with plays or short stories, but for it to be continuing 18 episodes into the season with the Winchesters none the wiser, I don't need it to continue to pile up. We've had Ketch killing people they've let go, Ketch screwing their Mom, Mick being killed, the BMoL rummaging through their things, and now a bug's in the bunker . . . all without them noticing.

In this instance, the mission in the bunker doesn't make sense. There is something to be said for 'know your enemy', but one would think after having gotten to know them all season, the BMoL wouldn't really need to know much more about them. Besides, they've made it perfectly clear that the bunker is easy to get into, so all they have to do is walk into the bunker at night while the Winchesters are sleeping, kill them, and then find out whatever else it is they want to know about them.

The other side of that Sun Tzu quote from the Art of War is 'know yourself. If you know yourself, but not the enemy, for every victory gained, you will suffer a defeat.' The BMoL know exactly what/who they are. The Winchesters also know who they are, but they have no idea who their enemy is, and it's setting them up to lose. Also, the Colt does not belong to the BMoL just because they had it for a little while thanks to duplicitous Mary. I hate this BMoL storyline so much that what was shaping up to be a pretty decent MOTW episode started to plummet in my estimation.

Back to the MotW. We've got the sheriff saying, 'My family's got a secret,' and Dean relating even if snarkily. The sheriff put a stop to his family's dark legacy and wanted to help people. This parallels Dean's thoughts on hunting going all the way back to episode 1.2. Then we have the sheriff's brother saying a reversal of what Dean said in that episode about the family business. What's killing a few innocents if it saves the town? Parallel to Sam. More legacy talk from the sheriff and then Dean talking about legacy at the bunker. I liked this talk. Always like talk about mortality. Heavy handed carving letters scene for faux-BM. Didn't like that. Something that should've been saved for the very last episode unless they're going to lose the bunker soon.

I'm annoyed that Dean couldn't take on one man face-to-face by himself. Loved the Dean in the freezer scene. Loved his little freaked out laugh. Annoyed he didn't get to kill or at least put up more of a fight against Moloch. Is not getting to use the Colt now going to be Dean's new not getting pie? Very annoying.

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[–] Strannger (2007) 8 years ago

They brought back the colt? I know Ruby taught them how to make bullets, but I thought it was lost. I'm glad they are digging into their roots again.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

"They brought back the colt?"

They did, and they gave a little backstory on where it's been all this time.

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[–] gonzosgirrl (9) 8 years ago

I don't have words to adequately express how much I hate this season. What they are doing with Dean is unforgivable. I'm frankly surprised that Jensen hasn't rebelled by now. I'm hoping that his radio silence about any actual show things is speaking for him.

I have never, in 40+ years of watching television, actively wished someone fired, but I want Dabb gone in the worst way. With any luck, this Wayward Daughter spin-off rumor is reality and he'll go off and play with them. The trouble is, I don't think there's anybody behind the scenes who actually gives a shit about Dean Winchester or his fans.

The hypocrisy of Sam's speech, 'We leave the world a better place' is so maddening, I couldn't even enjoy the initial-carving melodrama. Hey Sam, remember when you told Dean he was a piece of shit who was wrong for thinking he was doing more good? Grrrr.

I don't like feeling so angry over a tv show, it's ridiculous. So I'm done watching this season live. Maybe I'll watch the rest of the episodes after it's over.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Hey gonzogirrl! I saw you on twitter last night giving it your all, which I can totally understand.

Until I'm proved otherwise, I think this episode was furthering Dean's storyline. There were parallels between Dean and the sheriff and Sam and the sheriff's brother. Dean's story has been much more introspective than we're used to getting from him, but at the same time, who can he talk to about anything? He told his Mom that what he and Sam did made the world a better place, and what did she do? She ignored that, left, and started working with an organization she thinks does the job better than her sons. He told Sam that saving the room full of people from Lucifer was a win, and because Sam lost his hero Vince Vicente, Sam said it wasn't a win (even though Vince's meatsuit was gone long before they got there - hence the reason Lucifer needed Rowena to fix it). Cas has just disappeared, literally, off the face of the planet.

Dean has stayed who he is throughout, whereas Mary, Sam, and Cas have been orbiting further and further away from him. Sam's chasing his Mom, that normal life, the toys/lore the BMoL have. He chose a side. It just wasn't Dean's even though they're still working together, and I think Sam's actually being rewarded in the short term with more kills, etc. because he's working with the BMoL whole heartedly at this point, so he's going to continue to see it as a good thing (even after they're shown to be the villains, I'm sure he'll still want to use their technology if not their ethos, and that's not the kind of hunter Dean is). Cas chose the angels. Mary chose her own agenda and the BMoL.

I think Dean's talk about legacy and thinking about what he'll leave behind is the first thing he's felt like saying in a while now, or at least since Mary misconstrued his words about being a Mom to win an argument, and then Sam ultimately sided with her and had Dean unknowingly working for the BMoL for several weeks (which made it nearly impossible for Dean to object, since nothing bad had happened in all that time). I think questioning their legacy, what they'll leave behind, etc. is a step in Dean's progression and gives some insight on where he is this season when everyone around him is telling him that what he's spent his whole life doing is wrong, has been done the wrong way, or wasn't good enough. He feels left behind, and the show is leaving him behind when it comes to kills, but in truth, he's actually the only one who is right. It has to come to something.

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[–] gonzosgirrl (9) 8 years ago

I actually agree with all of your thinking on where Dean is at, I honestly do. Sadly, I just think that's our perspective as fans of this character, our knowledge of who he is. I'm not giving the writers or Dabb that much credit at this point. I simply don't believe they will let Dean have any kind of payoff for all he's taken this season. I want to be wrong, more than anything. Hopefully you all will let me know when it's over, and I'll happily eat crow.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

"I want to be wrong, more than anything."

I want you to be wrong more than anything too. ;)

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[–] gonzosgirrl (9) 8 years ago

I will be the first to toss confetti in the air. I'll even apologize to Dabb for my Twitter rants. :P

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[–] PAForrest (158) 8 years ago

I have lost track of the number of times over the years I've said "I hope you're right, I hope to be proven wrong" where it concerns anything happening to Dean.

I've pretty much never eaten crow, not once. You can always tell if they're actually going to write for Dean, and even more so when there's nothing happening or going to happen. And IMO this is one of those times. No, I don't believe for a second there's any reason for the ridiculous caricature of a Dean Winchester we're getting other than BTS egos and politics.

But, sure, if pigs start flying and we're all suddenly proven wrong, and we see conclusive on screen evidence that the utter destruction of Dean Winchester was all for a good storytelling reason - FOR DEAN, mind you, not Sam or anyone else - I'll be thrilled to say "you were right, I was wrong".

I'm just not worried about having to do that right now. I'm far more worried about the fact that it looks like Jensen Ackles has given up on the character and is fine with Dabb et. al. screwing over him and his fans.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I agree that the trend of having Dean be absent/inconsequential from every episode since 11 (+LOTUS and American Nightmare) is angering and tiresome, but I think there is a reason for it (maybe I've just never learned my lesson and have to believe there is. Hope springs eternal :| ).

In LOTUS, we saw Sam calling the BMoL and being the one to use the egg. We had Sam killing Ramiel in 12.12 when they were working with the BMoL without their knowledge. Then in 12.14, Sam killed the Alpha. 12.15, Sam killed the hellhound. 12.16, Mick killed the werewolf. 12.17, they were all ineffective with Dagon. 12.18, Sam got both kills. Every time they've used something they've gotten from the BMoL or have worked with the BMoL Sam has gotten the kill (That we've been shown. When Dean didn't know he was working for them, he got kills off screen using the Negan bat, which was IMO, an effort to paint him as more barbaric to Sam in comparison to the BMoL).

Sam is thriving under the BMoL and embraces them. Dean isn't and hasn't, and we know he's right. If Dean was paralleled with the sheriff last night, Sam was paralleled with the sheriff's brother, and I know you haven't watched it, but it wasn't flattering to Sam. He turned Dean's entire philosophy about hunting on its head and was sacrificing innocents for Moloch and personal gain. Dean hasn't done much, and that's what is frustrating people, but I think there is a reason for it. I have my ideas on where I think it's going, but I'll hold off on those for now. All I know is that Dean is acting the same way he did when he had the MoC, just without the kills, so something is definitely bothering him, and that is going to come to a head. They're just being really subtle in their approach.

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

I get you are still hoping. But to be honest I have gotten to the point where I will watch the new episode of Grey's anatomy before the new Supernatural episode.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Did you watch the episode last night?

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

This morning before work.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Your rating = 0?

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

For the anvils for the casual viewer I'd give it three.

For the obsessives (i.e us) I'd give it a two simply for Ketch's getting sloppy over Mary. Because I kind of think that his visit was him trying to save the boys by thinking the more info he gets the less likely the MoL will kill them as they would have the means to truly control them. If controlled the boys will behave and Ketch won't have to upset Mary by killing her sons.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I agree his obsession with Mary is going somewhere. I'm just not sure that it's saving her sons. Taking her under the pretense of controlling them, so he doesn't have to kill her and then really using the time he has to attempt to woo her in a twisted way is something I could see him doing.

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

I think that his obsession right now is the only thing that is slowing Hess' order from getting carried out. Because for him it was never have her to control them and using the time to get under her skin. I think of it as for Ketch it is more simple - he gets the brothers in line then he gets more time with her.

If that means he slows down the implementation of Hess' orders then so be it. But by that time he'll have enough information to ensure the brothers do as they are told or at least one of them and he can get back to wooing Mary.

Boys dead or pissed off to walk from the men of letters he loses her

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I understand what you're saying, but I'm still not sure. He seems pretty happy to be let off his leash with regard to the Winchesters. I think it's a case of getting to know everything about them, so he can use it to bring them down. He's the first villain other than Crowley to take them seriously. Slowing it down . . . Yeah, he is, because all he had to do was kill them in their sleep. Maybe you're right, but I really just think it's to continue to draw out the arc as long as possible by having him metaphorically pissing all over their home under the guise of getting the Colt back, which he must do soon, and finding out as much about them as he can before he makes his move. I think seeing Mary's picture stopped him in his tracks and made him make a mistake hinting that she is the only chink in his armor that can be used to beat him at this point.

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

I agree he takes the brothers more seriously than others. Though after that episode I don't know why.

As you said all the men of letters needs to do is walk into the bunker and smother the brothers in their sleep and they wouldn't be able to do anything and all it would have taken is changing that lock on the bunker door.

And part of me thinks he will get the colt in the next episode as it goes missing and the only other two people who would take it would be Cas (though why? To kill Kelly's baby?) or Mary (on Ketch's request).

As for Mary, I think she is the chink in his armour. Though I don't know if she is his only one. As Toni seems to be his ex and is very similar to how they've portrayed Mary. Driven ice queens with a killing streak. But from the way she spoke it didn't end well, so as much as I would like Dean to kill him and actually get a kill this season I do see Mary being the one to kill Ketch in some half arsed redemption arc.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

"And part of me thinks he will get the colt in the next episode as it goes missing and the only other two people who would take it would be Cas (though why? To kill Kelly's baby?) or Mary (on Ketch's request)."

Yeah, I didn't want to say that, because I wasn't sure if you'd seen the spoiler yet or not. :)

"Driven ice queens with a killing streak."

He certainly has a type.

"as much as I would like Dean to kill him and actually get a kill this season I do see Mary being the one to kill Ketch in some half arsed redemption arc."

Yeah, I'd like Dean matched against Ketch with Dean coming out on top too, but unfortunately, I see it going to Mary. I'm not sure it'll happen this season though. I really want to be rid of this BMoL storyline, but who knows how many of them there actually are, and I doubt they'll kill Toni. I think we're stuck with it for season 13 too.

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

No I agree I doubt they'd kill Toni, if anything she may be the top op left in the US of the BMoL so we'd get her for season 13.

As for Dean if he doesn't get Ketch and we know he isn't going to get Lucifer at the end of this season he won't get any meaningful kills at all this season.? If he gets Dagon it will be cold comfort and right now as much potential as she has she is basically a glorified babysitter.

And sorry about not saying about the colt as thought you had seen the blurb for the next episode. I just have a nasty habit of thinking if I've seen it others have.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

"And sorry about not saying about the colt as thought you had seen the blurb for the next episode."

Ha. Oh no, I have. I just wasn't sure if you had.

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

hehe

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[–] PAForrest (158) 8 years ago

Hey, I actually do hope you're right, believe me. I just don't think history is on our side. ;-)

And at this point I honestly don't think I'm watching the rest of the season. I'll acquiesce to continuing to dvr the episodes and won't delete them until I hear what happens in the finale. Then a decision will be made to watch some or all, or just wipe the dvr.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 8 years ago

The episode followed the usual MOTW formula (I’m becoming so tired of this formula). My recording missed the first couple of minutes so I don’t know why he was walking in the woods – but apparently these writers think teens – when they’re not rolling their eyes - spend downtime in creepy woods at night in the cold.

It was an ok throw-away episode I guess. Ok for the casual viewer who has no investment and just wants to sit and eat popcorn and drink beer. It will never make anyone’s top 100.

I think Dabb is tossing crumbs to Dean fans - here you go... here’s your womanizing, burger eating, smart mouth Dean. Cuz that’s all Dabb thinks Dean is.

Sam on the other hand is master of the ‘oh my brother’s such a cad’ furrowed brow. And next season if Dabb’s still in charge, I’m expecting Sam to be fitted out in a plaid cape flying through the air with the Colt between his teeth (but does he have the legs for tights...maybe not?).

The bunker HAS to be blown up. It really is a joke. That there is no alarm system that trips cell phones or whatever is so incredibly stupid. It’s a stupid stupid bunker. And there's poor Abaddon who spent an entire season trying to get in.

And let’s all watch out for the initials carved into the table. Will they remember? (When Dean was boiling livid that one time he flung stuff around and broke those lamps – next scene they were back intact).

I give it 4/10 because Dean looked all GQ in his FBI winter coat.

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[–] fishpan (544) 8 years ago

Yeah the bunker has to go. It was hinted that it was going last episode and I get that they are bigging it up a bit before it goes or changes but sorry I was more than a little pissed at the carving of the initials. It doesn't deserve them even though it does serve as the boys home.

Plus for the brothers not to do anything to up security when Mick flat out told them any men of letters can stroll in, for them not to do it after Toni just swanned in is sodding unforgivable in the terms of logic and common sense.

But back to the real reason for my rant that the bunker is not in the same league or even playing the same sport as the Impala. It does not deserve to be considered such. The bunker is a tainted line where as the Impala, its being, its soul, its very existence is tied to the brothers. Its the keeper of the Winchester legacy. She's the embodiment of John's line picking its own way when others are saying they shouldn't. Not Henry's over blown pomposity, not the Campbell sneering hunter hierarchy.

Baby won the right to those initials, she kept those two little boys safe. She brought Sam back to his senses and helped Dean give Sam the strength to jump. When asked she has never let those boys down. She is their tardis, not doing what they want all the time, but doing what they need even when they don't know it.

The bunker is a fallacy, it's open to all and everyone, Sam was taken from it, the Steins strolled in, the BMoL walk in and out from it, Crowley can put his feet up in it and the bunker can't hold a candle to the most important thing in the universe.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

"It was hinted that it was going last episode"

I picked up on this too. I think it's the real reason they had them carve their names into the table in a place they consider a second home.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 8 years ago

I must've missed that hint. But with only one more season and probably a shortened following season - would they bother building a brand new set for the boy's base? The Js joked at a recent convention about lazy boy chairs and flat screen TVs being installed.

Anyway - great discussion, folks. Enjoyed reading your comments on this episode. I'd love to think they have a grand design for Dean. We know he's going to be proven right - but will it be acknowledged?

One thing they have got right in terms of character - Sam is a follower, especially of shiny new things. Dean is a leader. He is his own man. He follows no one.

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[–] Icarus (78) 8 years ago

Well I actually didn't mind this episode, I quite enjoyed it. It helps that I read other people's comments here and at other sites and since the majority didn't like the episode, I am then pleasantly surprised when I do. That is not to say that I think it has anything on past seasons but then again not much has been good about this season. I, again, didn't mind the Sam kill, not sure why it didn't bother me as it is getting a bit ridiculous but Dean was not helpless, he did free himself and was fighting back so that was good enough for me. I zoned out the BMOL stuff, them all over the bunker grrrr but like others the bunker has almost been relegated to just another place now for me. It had such enormous potential and also such a lot of further use could be made of it but I think it is about to become history (like lots of others do). Unfortunately I cannot get excited about future episodes as they seem to involve the BMOL and Mary too much! I am interested in what, where etc is going on with Cas and what happens in the final two episodes, it seems that they are hyping this up i.e. Mark's Lucifer comment and some of the Con comments so I guess we will see, I am enjoying all the speculation though probably more than I will enjoy the actual episodes themselves.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 8 years ago

""I am enjoying all the speculation though probably more than I will enjoy the actual episodes themselves"".

I think we put way more thought into everything than any of the writers or showrunners. It's very apparent they write for the casual viewer not the committed invested fan.

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