"But still he is there working with them so is still complicit in the men of letters ethos unless we find out Sam and Mary never told him about the colt and the kill squad method they men of letters uses."
Complicit - involved with others in an activity that is unlawful or morally wrong.
Is Dean really complicit if in the first case we see him knowingly working with the BMoL, he flat out tells Mick that not all werwolves are bad, confronts Mick when he finds out Mick killed the girl in the hospital, broadens the scope then to say that not all monsters are bad, tells Sam what Mick did as a reason I'm sure he thought would get them out of the BMoL service, and then tells Claire that she can live as a monster and still be okay? None of that says he is or plans to be involved in the extermination of all monsters.
Dean only gave the BMoL, but more specifically Mick, a second chance because Mick stuck around to actively help with the cure, didn't actually follow the BMoL ethos when left by himself to keep an eye on Claire, and then shot the werewolf that was going after Dean. That's more about Mick as an individual than the BMoL as a whole, and if anything, Dean is converting Mick to his side in small steps, which I don't think depicts even a tacit agreement with the way the BMoL do things.
What I want to know is why Dean isn't there when Mick gives Sam the Colt. Is he busy somewhere else? It's possible if that's where the showdown with Dagon happens later in the episode (It looks like that bridge is in the background behind Sam and Eileen. Maybe Dean is doing something to help set up a trap for Dagon or is off getting Kelly away from Dagon with the idea being that Kelly can be used as bait). If that's the case, then he more than likely knows about the Colt, Mick is bringing the Colt to help with the trap, and the random BMoL guy is there to keep an eye on Mick and the Colt, because the BMoL don't trust either with Dean and Sam.
Or is the Colt still being kept secret a secret from Dean? Did Sam call Mick up behind Dean's back and say, 'hey we need the Colt for this trap we've got planned,' and then not expect Dean to notice it when they use it? Maybe, but when Sam's being sneaky, he usually hides it better than that, so unless he's using Eileen as cover and planning to say she gave him the Colt, I think that's less likely than Mick wanting to help with Dagon and showing up with the Colt unsolicited at a time when Dean isn't there for whatever reason. That might indicate that Dean still doesn't know about the Colt, and Sam is going to have to explain how he has it for Dagon, how Mick got it, etc.
I'm hoping that's what happens, because I'd really like to see Dean's reaction to the Colt being back and how it was obtained rather than find out he was told off screen. It may be naive of me given how things have played out this season, but I'm holding onto that hope until they pry it away tonight. I'll also say that if Dean doesn't know about the Colt, that in no way paints him as stupid to me. Simply not knowing something he would have no way of knowing without being told about it doesn't make him stupid. At any rate, I think that we'll see Mick take a step towards the BMoL and away from the Winchesters throughout the episode and then we'll see him take a step closer to the Winchesters after Dean talks him down at the end.
"As for follow through I have no faith that there will be any consequences of this outside they will brush over Sam and Mary's reasoning for working with the men of letters, Dean apologising for making them pick sides and Mary's arc being the lazy one of her going out in a semi blaze of glory."
There has to be some kind of follow through or the entire storyline, weak as it is, becomes pointless; no lessons learned, no finding out about what hunting means to them as individuals/what they really want out of hunting/how they want to hunt going forward, etc., and that is what Dabb said this season was going to be about at the start of the season. I wouldn't be surprised if they chickened out and had no follow through, because they've done it in the past, and it is possible that most in the audience wouldn't notice and simply be happy with some pretty words in the finale from family about family that will erase the entire season and make it all okay, but that doesn't work for me.
reply
share
fishpan (544)
8 years ago
'Is Dean really complicit if in the first case we see him knowingly working with the BMoL, he flat out tells Mick that not all werwolves are bad'
The problem is from the dialogue at the beginning of the last episode it isn't clear that it is the first case he knowingly is working with the MoL. We know he doesn't like being told to report for duty and prefers to keep them at arms length. So reporting at the men of letters behest when he just finds out - well it doesn't seem like Dean.
But the Dean we know would either keep them at arms length because he doesn't trust them but is going on Sam's word or be the one who is wanting to meet face to face because he doesn't trust them and he wants to back up Sam's word. And not only that if he has just found out and he gets the men of letters were happy to have him be tricked into accepting and they understand that he still probably finds them shady then why would entertain Mick trying to come along? Story about wanting to prepare or not Dean would probably feel Mick wasn't there for field experience but to check up on him and Sam even if he was trying.
So with that being said I'd say there is a time jump and if there is a time jump you have to wonder if Sam told Dean about the colt and the alpha and why the alpha turned up.
If he doesn't know Dean is unknowingly complicit by facilitating MoL aims as he doesn't know the methods they use behind his back, but if he does then he is still kind of complicit even though Sam and Mick may have brushed over details of men of letters methods. Sam on the other hand doesn't have any excuse they blatantly told him to his face.
reply
share
CluelessDrifter (884)
8 years ago
"But the Dean we know would either keep them at arms length because he doesn't trust them but is going on Sam's word or be the one who is wanting to meet face to face because he doesn't trust them and he wants to back up Sam's word. And not only that if he has just found out and he gets the men of letters were happy to have him be tricked into accepting and they understand that he still probably finds them shady then why would entertain Mick trying to come along? Story about wanting to prepare or not Dean would probably feel Mick wasn't there for field experience but to check up on him and Sam even if he was trying."
I'm sorry, but I'm having a really hard time understanding what any of this means. I mean, I think I understand it in a general sense, but I'm not sure where it fits into the discussion.
"So with that being said I'd say there is a time jump and if there is a time jump you have to wonder if Sam told Dean about the colt and the alpha and why the alpha turned up."
We weren't told that there was a time jump, which they do when there is one, like when the government had Dean and Sam for 6 weeks or when Dean and Sam were out killing wraiths, sirens, etc. for weeks after The Raid. Without that, I can't agree with this. We can speculate on what they were dong there, like I could say that in the phone call at the end of the previous episode, Sam told the BMoL that Dean was officially on board, and that's what prompted them to call he and Dean in for a meeting, but without them showing that, I can't say one way or the other whether or not that definitively happened.
As far as we know, Dean and Sam were just there. Dean wasn't happy to be there and thought they were just going to be getting cases thrown in their direction, not that they were really going to be working for the BMoL (i.e. reporting for duty). We also don't know whether or not the vampire girl in the Raid told Dean why the vampires were fighting back or if Sam did. We don't even know if Claire had a chance to tell Dean what the sire werewolf told her in the last episode. I'm guessing not on both accounts because of Dean's reaction to what Mick did to the werewolf girl in the hospital, but again, I can't say for sure until we're told on screen in some way.
reply
share
fishpan (544)
8 years ago
Basically I'm saying if Dean had just found out he was working with the men of letters he wouldn't be reporting for duty because Mick told them to come. Dean would be the one asking for the meeting or would be saying when told to report 'back off until I figure if I can really trust what you are sending us.'
And if it was his first official men of letters job he wouldn't let Mick in the car to let Mick to wet his head hunting because Dean would still be trying to get his head round working with the men of letters, even if he was wiling to go along. But Dean just acted like Mick would be a liability not a potential threat when Mick suggested tagging along
So that is why I'd say there has been a enough of a time jump between episodes for him to get to the point he isn't happy but he has gotten use to them and what they are sending him and Sam. Might have been a couple of weeks but just enough to get Dean comfortable enough to let Mick in the car because he took Mick at face value. But that time, hell even the car drive without it is enough time for Sam to spill about the Colt and the vamp genocide.
So until we see what happens with Sam getting the colt we can't say for definite Dean hasn't been told or has bee told. If he hasn't Sam and co have little respect for him. Claire not telling Dean what the werewolf said I'd give a pass too because she'd just think the werewolf was talking BS or he was talking about a group of tooled up hunters not the men of letters because she knows really only about Mick. But if Dean has been told about the colt and the vamp extermination then it can be said he is complicit because he knows vamps can be peaceful too
reply
share
CluelessDrifter (884)
8 years ago
"And if it was his first official men of letters job he wouldn't let Mick in the car to let Mick to wet his head hunting because Dean would still be trying to get his head round working with the men of letters, even if he was wiling to go along."
I'd think that Dean would want to check them out sooner rather than later, especially when he knows that Cas almost died and Wally did die on a mission Mary took them on for the BMoL. That's why it wouldn't seem odd to me for Dean to not only go to a meeting at the BMoL bunker soon after Sam told him they were already kind of working for them, or for Dean to ultimately agree to let Mick tag along with them. He may have complained the entire time, but that's as much about him not wanting to work with them and trying to find anything to get out of it as it is anything else. Also, Sam backed Mick coming with them. That's why Dean said that it was Sam's job to keep an eye on him, but again, filling in those blanks in time and motivation is all speculation at this point until it's confirmed on screen.
PS. Thanks for clarifying.
reply
share
fishpan (544)
8 years ago
If Dean either wanted to check the MoL out or have them at arms length at first he'd be in control of that. Even if he did report to them when Mick came just when he found out, there would be a comment about being him working with on his terms not being their lap dog. Not be open to Mick tagging along so Mick could just get experience. if Mick asked at that point he'd be thinking Mick had another agenda.
Dean's complaints would have a completely different tone, he'd be less open for discussion, less likely to say Sam would be the one to babysit Mick as Dean would be still weighing things up even if he was co-operating.
Mick also would make pleasantries about Dean finally being on board before requesting if he could ta along. He'd know that Dean's the most jittery out of the Winchesters so jumping in to ask can he tag along in the manner he did doesn't fit. Mick would have waited to their relationship was a more secure.
The tone of the dialogue doesn't fit that this is the first MoL trip the boys have had since Dean found out.
reply
share
CluelessDrifter (884)
8 years ago
I think all of that is a stretch, but that's just me. It's okay if that's the way you see it. I'm sure most people probably do. I tend to look at things a little differently on a lot of things.
For me, it's as simple as Dean was already unknowingly working for the BMoL, he found out he had been and then couldn't exactly say that he wasn't going to work for them, because he already had been and nothing bad had happened, so he didn't have an excuse that Sam would buy for why they shouldn't (Compound that with the fact that they'd just worked with Crowley). Sam filled the BMoL in on Dean agreeing to work with them, and the BMoL called them in for a meeting. Dean wasn't happy about it, but did it because it's what Sam wanted. Mick wanted to come along. Dean again wasn't happy about it, but allowed it because it's what Sam wanted, and then Dean used that as an opportunity to keep an eye on Mick, finding out more about the BMoL and arguing back against the things he learned about them. He also actively encouraged Claire to stay a monster, not something he would do if he were complicit in helping the BMoL exterminate all monsters.
reply
share