Rate Ladies Drink Free 12.16
What did you think of the episode?
shareSo far my opinion of Claire hasn't changed. So annoyed!
shareI swear, I spent so much of this episode rolling my eyes at her.
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MovieChat Forums > Supernatural (2005) Discussion > Rate Ladies Drink Free 12.16
I'll give it a 7.5. It was sooooo predictable! But I liked that Dean got to be Dean. And I was invested in Mick's character this episode. How he's evolving from being the corporate YES man and questioning the BMoL's MO.
shareAbout to start watching now.
shareEnjoy!
...Maybe, lol.
Well it wasn't as horrible as I thought it was going to be.
Parts I hated- I was so hoping that after Sam said they were done they would really be done. Unfortunatley they weren't. Too many sloppy plot holes and I'm sorry but Kathryn is just a really bad actress. Another actress might have pulled it off better.
So sadly I guess Dean knows about the Colt and he isn't going to get his moment realizing just how deep Mary's betrayal was. That is a huge fail for me. Like really huge.
Parts that were ok- Mick killing the girl was pretty dramatic. Why didn't the Wereboy kill him? I did love that Dean wasn't going to put up with his crap. However I still don't think he is a character that can be redeemed. He has sanctioned the killing of Magda and the soldiers...not forgivable. I loved Sam telling Claire to stop acting like a child. The Claire-wolf looked like a werewolf instead of a human with bad teeth. Dean swimming with no swim trunks (and why would they even have swim trunks and why haven't we seen them?).
The tease I suppose is that Claire is a hunter and she will probably be a series regular next season since she is a fan "favorite". Blah!
I would rate it (on a curve for this season) maybe a 6?
With regard to Mary, I've got to the point where if they shove her in a pit and put a boulder over her I wouldn't care. I really don't.
But with regard to this episode I'm guessing because the wereboy didn't kill Mick because not only the writers trying to kept Mick in the story but also it was their way of showing he was a desperately lonely guy who if had been left alone with his family in the first place wouldn't have hurt anyone. That he wasn't actually use to killing people out of anything other than need and he didn't NEED to kill Mick, he just need him incapacitated to grab Claire.
I say this because he solely seemed to kill Haydyn's brother for his heart and I think that was the heart that he tried to feed Claire. So he didn't kill Mick because Mick hadn't put up much resistance and he didn't need a heart.
So as much as the bartender was responsible for killing Hadyn's brother and turning the girls the BMoL kind of bare a large amount of responsibility with regard to what happened.
And now judging by the promo Mary is shacking up with Mr. Ketch. Could they make her character any more icky!
shareI always thought they had a weird vibe between them, especially coming from Ketch.
shareKetch has been creepily hitting on Mary for a long long time.
Though if Ketch and Mary horizontal tango is meant to show us that Mary has hit rock bottom and is about to start her redemption arc the writers are becoming very predictable and it to be honest I wouldn't really care .
Agreed.
shareI agree. If having her bump uglies with Ketch is supposed to show us she's hit rock bottom it won't work for me. I'm actually not surprised. I compared her to a cult member who's drunk the Kool-aid and is obsessed with the BMOL. Her further 'embracing' the cause just confirms what I always thought about her. The woman is bad news and the fact that she bought into the BMOL organization so quickly, after what they did to her son shows she has a shaky moral compass and is not to be trusted.
shareYeah I wouldn't be surprised if her and Ketch started macking on each other over monster corpses they way they've wrote them and as for her having a shaky moral compass. It was kind of a given when we found out she lied to her husband for 10 years while still going hunting but the things she was hunting had nothing to do with protecting her family. Also she claims she loves her boys but she didn't put her children first when she went for the colt. Now I am fine with having her come off the pedestal that they put her on for years but her kids essentially became tools to be used for her there.
It kind of says something when I do feel that there is a more relatable motherly progression with Rowena than the woman that gave birth to the heroes and you wouldn't ask Rowena to become involved with the long term emotional health of a terminally ill hamster. (what happened to that witch?)
But is it wrong as much as I don't care about Mary herself now, that I hope she survives long enough to see this fall out from her being part of a sponsored death squad? Personally, I would love it if the human woman goes postal on Mary's ass, like Lily did on Cas' pals, because dear old Mommy Winchester killed her grandchildren who never hurt anyone because although they were born 'monsters' they and their monster parent was peaceful and not only that they were children and I mean children, kids.
It would at least give a point to the Men of Letters and Mary's spiral with shacking up with them. So lets have the sodding debate, when do the methods go to the point where Mick and co can't given a second chance when it is kind of right for the boys to step back and let monsters have their way with the men of letters.
With the killing of Haydn, you can't say they won't give Mick and co a second chance if they find out about Magda because they still have the argument Magda killed and you know some fans will be fine with that argument, abuse and all. Or the soldiers some fans will say the men of letters even though went too far were protecting the boys and world from governments trying getting involved with their agenda. There is the argument that the boys could show the Brits could change if Mick does and you took out the really zealots like Toni and Ketch.
But what about where grey becomes black and white the other way. When is it too much to stomach and you know the monsters are in the right about killing hunters back? With the extermination of peaceful packs with pureblood werewolves who are at high school? Or the killing of pureblood werewolves in the cradle because a silver nitrate gas bomb isn't going to discriminate and Mary and Ketch will have used them.
This is a show that is based on a man who just wanted normal and went on a revenge spree after his wife was killed. Can we call it monstrous if another being does the same thing just because they aren't human?
The thing is that we know, least I think we do, that the actress has said we will like Mary again. So presumably she HAS to know about some sort of redemption arc. However the writers are notoriously bad at understanding what the viewers see as I don't believe they wanted Mary to come across quite as unpleasant and horrible as she has done. Some people seem to think that it is possible Mary is spying on the BMOL from the inside and this will show what a goodie she actually is, but that doesn't make sense to me as she would need to be working with someone else for this storyline to work and I can't see who she would be working with. So for Mary to be having sex with Ketch and from this finding out that they are baddies absolutely does not work for me as a redemption arc, she has gone way too far down the path to get back up again IMO. A really good inventive writer might have been able to come up with an idea that would work but I don't think anyone of the current ones would be able to write something like that. Lots of fans though don't want Mary to be killed off as it would be too traumatic for Dean and Sam – me I can't wait to see the back of her!
shareSee like you I can't see that Mary is spying on anyone, for one thing as you said the writers aren't good enough to make that work. I think their idea was one that Mary shacked up with the men of letters as a way to make amends and sense of the world because they were offering her a way to make the world one where her boys didn't have to hunt monsters.
But they screwed it up because they didn't let us get to know her or have her interact with her boys enough or learn about the world they lived in or actually being a feeling human being, because as you said the writers don't see what they are doing. So how the hell can you redeem her? They can't really give her a Snape moment.
In the end I think it would traumatic to kill her but what the hell are they going to do with her? Redeem her and have her sit in the bunker? Redeem her and have her hunt with Claire because that will go down like a tonne of bricks because Claire has stated she doesn't want babysat. Not redeem her and have her as a kind of villain like Crowley who comes in with her own agenda because she is still with the men of letters? Have her and Ketch ride off into the sunset and the boys find they are invited to a baby shower for their new half brother or sister? But if they are going to kill her at least do it in a way that gives the audience some real movement instead of her going out in a blaze of glory and have her die in her boys arms with her saying sorry - I'd hate her more for that.
The only good thing out of this story line is that people aren't saying John is the worse parent in the world anymore because a lot now can be tied back to Mary. In fact John went on a revenge spree because he was forced to fall for a woman he never knew. it is kind of sad.
Mary knew John before she died but he never knew her.
--"In the end I think it would traumatic to kill her but what the hell are they going to do with her? Redeem her and have her sit in the bunker? Redeem her and have her hunt with Claire because that will go down like a tonne of bricks because Claire has stated she doesn't want babysat."--
I don't think it would be so traumatic at all to most of fandom if Mary Sue died again - she's just not all that beloved. But I don't think that's going to happen either. Dabb loves her too much, certainly a lot more than he does the brothers.
And I actually do think if they are still aiming for a Claire kind of spin-off, Mary is very likely slotted to be a part of that as the resident "Winchester" addition. To babysit, no, because if there is going to be any maternal influence in a spin-off like that, that role clearly would go to Jodi. But Dabb would use Mary to try and sell the Winchester brand to lure old fans in. Won't work on me.
--"Mary knew John before she died but he never knew her. "--
Truest sentiment ever!
At least Mary read John's journal and showed SOME interest about him. She couldn't be bothered with Sam or Dean at all.
It'll never happen but I hope Ketch kills Mary, Dean kills Ketch for revenge then takes the grenade launcher and blows up the entire BoL organization (Mick can stick around if he plays nice).
I don't understand where this idea that Mary sleeping with Ketch is supposed to be a rock bottom scenario. I think it's simply a case of Mary and Ketch spending a lot of time together in high risk situations, and they have a mutual respect for one another, so they've grown 'close' out on the road, and I don't think this is a 'one off' hooking up. I'm guessing that it's been going on for a while, since Mary has been paired off with Ketch while her sons have been off working for the BMoL somewhere else.
If Ketch is instructed to kill or capture Mary at the end of the episode or in a few episodes, then I could see that being the start of her redemption arch. If she's invested in Ketch even a little, it'll catch her off guard, so he'll be able to get a few good swipes in on her. Then, she'll have nowhere to turn but her sons for immediate help if she's injured. I'd say that would annoy me, but to be honest, I've wanted the BMoL to blow up in her face for a while now, and Ketch attacking/stabbing/shooting/using spell work on her works for me. I think something like that happening is the only way she'll be able to go to her sons, be truly contrite, and start to get to know them again, but for real this time. Ideally, I would've wanted her to come to the realization on her own that the BMoL were wrong or bad news, possibly by seeing Lucifer's baby and thinking, 'That's a baby. I have baby issues, so I'm not going to kill it," but if they want to go with an attempted hit on her doing the same, I can live with that (It just doesn't quite go far enough to make her seem like a good person underneath it all. Whereas, I think Mary coming to the realization that killing all monsters indiscriminately is wrong on her own might).
What I really don't want to see is Mary being captured to control Sam and Dean and for her to become a damsel in distress, so that her sons forgive her for everything after they get her back without her having to say she's sorry. That would not be a redemption arch. That would be sweeping everything under the carpet, and I just don't think they can do that if they want to rehabilitate the character. It might work on some fans, but it wouldn't work for me.
I'm not so sure Mary sleeps with Ketch. He may proposition her but she'll say no. This isn't vampire diaries.
Mary’s relationship, acceptance and even approval of the BMOL is just another Sam hit a dog scenario – audiences are scratching their heads and saying WTF. You brought her back for THIS?
Sam was all weird and distant when Dean escaped from purgatory, nothing was ever really explained. And now Mary is all weird and distant with her sons and we have no idea why. OK, she needs space... but why is she so completely enamoured with the BMOL? Her sons are freaking heroes and have a lifetime of hunting experience and stories to tell – they’ve both been to hell, they’re friends of God, they’ve saved the world a couple of times. In comparison the BMOL are shifty, use gizmos not intellect and – well, they’re strangers.
But Mary will be redeemed. I'm preparing myself for her redemption arc to begin soon. TPTB have a good idea of audience reaction, and Sam Smith must too. She receives the brunt of the angry tweets.
Either she’ll float off happily back to heaven. Or she’ll join Jody as mother to a batch of eye-rolling wayward daughters on the spin off. I will be very unhappy if Mary dies violently again. Not because I care about her – but because of what it will do to Dean. It’ll kill him.
"I'm not so sure Mary sleeps with Ketch. He may proposition her but she'll say no. This isn't vampire diaries."
Funny that you mention that. At one point, I had something to the effect that in no way do I think that any of this fits with Supernatural, but deleted it, because I thought it muddied my points. I agree. None of what I suggested feels like Supernatural (I've never seen The Vampire Diaries, so I can't really compare). Unfortunately, I think that it was Ketch in the bed behind her (Maybe it was a random hook up. We won't know for a few more days, I guess, but I'm thinking not). And what a way to proposition her . . . 'Think I'll just hop into her bed without any clothes on, and she'll give me a shot then.' I don't think that seems like something Ketch would do.
I'll add that all of that is IF they decide to give Mary a redemption arch. Lucifer already seems to be getting one, so they might not give Mary one at all (this season). They could have her go all in on the BMoL even if it destroys her relationship with her sons, and if she's with Ketch . . . well, then I guess she has someone at least.
shareI don't even know if Dabb and Singer think Mary needs redemption. Maybe we were never suppose to like her and this is just a repeat of Grampa Campbell. They have to know she is not that popular and sleeping with Ketch really won't help the situation. I am afraid that this is a long term story and there won't be any resolution at all this season. We have 7 episodes left and have to resolve Mary, Mick, Ketch, Toni, BoL, the Princes, Lucifer and his child. Oh and weave Cas, Crowley and Rowena back into the main story. This could all lead to Season 12 part two:Let's do a spin-off.
shareWE all know how come the end of the season it's a RUSH to get to the finale. All the loose ends never seem to be tied up. Then the finale is all crambed pact with so much, its almost too much to cope with. Even into a start of a new season, they never appear to catch up and tie up those plot holes. Even with all their experiences.
shareAs much as I would like to see Dean take the grenade launcher to this whole season, I think everything we are seeing is a setup for a spin-off. They are throwing everything against a wall and hoping the CW will let something stick. They pretty much said that last week in the episode preview. I think Dabb and Singer are preparing for 300 and what may come after it. I'm guessing (and I hope I'm wrong) that Season 13 will be a lot of spin-off pitches particularly wayward daughters. If they get it then Season 14 will be a Dean and Sam wrap up.
share--"I think everything we are seeing is a setup for a spin-off. They are throwing everything against a wall and hoping the CW will let something stick. They pretty much said that last week in the episode preview. I think Dabb and Singer are preparing for 300 and what may come after it. I'm guessing (and I hope I'm wrong) that Season 13 will be a lot of spin-off pitches particularly wayward daughters. If they get it then Season 14 will be a Dean and Sam wrap up. "--
Yahtzee. ITA, and have also stated many times that this season isn't about the Winchester brothers, not even a little bit. It's about all the peripheral characters who may or may not work out in a spin-off, which is why the brothers have been rendered guest-stars most of the season. And I also agree that season 13 is likely to be no better, if not much worse.
If #300 is the endgame, then a 14th season is a half-season - and that will be the most Dabb et. al. will devote to wrapping up Dean and Sam. That is, if we're lucky. But I too believe that we'll most likely have to wait until that 14th half-season to see episodes that actually focus on the brothers.
Oh, what a depressing thought. Here's many of us thinking they were wanting more time off to spend with their families and kiddies?
shareI think the wanting more time off is factoring into it, no doubt. It's the big excuse Dabb et. al. are using to keep the storyline focused on anyone but the brothers.
Better smarter showrunning and writing could make up for the reduced work load of the two leads. Unfortunately we don't have that, so it only becomes increasingly obvious how much they're not being written for, how much time off they have, and how disinterested the showrunners are in the two lead characters.
"If #300 is the endgame, then a 14th season is a half-season - and that will be the most Dabb et. al. will devote to wrapping up Dean and Sam. That is, if we're lucky. But I too believe that we'll most likely have to wait until that 14th half-season to see episodes that actually focus on the brothers."
They should put some effort in the final arc whenever that may be. Singer has been pretty consistent that the boys need to have a proper send off. Everyone wants that and no one wants to screw it up.
What I'm excited about is how excited Jensen and Jared have been at conventions about the future after the show. Jensen wants a movie and Jared wants a Netflix deal with 8 episode seasons or 4 movies like Gilmore Girls. That could be great, Jensen could finally film at the Grand Canyon and the other locations he has mentioned. There would be a bigger budget and the show or movies would go back to focusing on Sam and Dean. Jared said he was willing to commit to 2 or 3 months a year and seemed excited about it. There wouldn't be any filler for J2's off days either. Everyone wins.
--"Jensen wants a movie and Jared wants a Netflix deal with 8 episode seasons or 4 movies like Gilmore Girls. That could be great, Jensen could finally film at the Grand Canyon and the other locations he has mentioned. There would be a bigger budget and the show or movies would go back to focusing on Sam and Dean. Jared said he was willing to commit to 2 or 3 months a year and seemed excited about it. There wouldn't be any filler for J2's off days either. Everyone wins. "--
I hate to have to wait that long for decent writing, but I agree the fans of the Winchesters would likely benefit greatly from a very limited run format. Plus, it gives the actors leeway to do other things, and I really, really, REALLY want to see Jensen spread his wings and do other material.
I get the feeling that the show is winding down, judging by the way you guys are talking which is really sad to hear. If 8 episodes on Netflix is the future and the guys are still being paid, then I guess it's a good thing for them. And maybe a win, win for us that we still get to see the show last out somewhere else. 8 episode seasons will be a killer.
shareThis is pure speculation on my part. I don't know if the show is winding down but I do watch the con footage and interviews. I know they want a spin off and since the web series and Bloodlines didn't lead anywhere, I think that is what is happening now.
I also know the J's have a home life so the show runners need to come up with better storylines for the other characters. Cas has Angel trouble and is searching for Kelly. Crowley and Lucifer are sitting around out snarking each other. Mary was out finding herself. None of these were the most compelling storylines. Now the Cas/Crowley buddy cop hunting team, THAT had potential.
One of the Bloodlines interviews I read was how they introduced new characters instead of building from established characters. Right now, nothing they have shown will support a spin off. Hence, my concern that next season and the remainder of this will build up side characters at Sam and Dean's expense.
Oh yeah, and Mick seems to be heading down the path of redemption too, so adding Mary into the mix . . .
shareI don't know what to rate this. I usually go with the first thing that pops into my head, and that was 6 and then immediately 5, so I'm going with 5.5. That's not necessarily a good thing. It's almost better to hate an episode than for it to fall into the category of 'boring/middle of the road/I don't have a strong feeling about this one way or the other.' It also doesn't mean that I have any evidential basis for my rating, like a likes/dislikes ratio, just a purely emotion based rating. I'll still try to break down the likes vs. dislikes though.
Dean was Dean. Sam was Sam. They were in every act. This season, that gives them 3 points right there. I liked Sam telling Claire if she didn't want to be treated like a kid, she should stop acting like one. She isn't a kid. She's 20/21. I liked Dean's interrogation of Mick and their conversation outside the bar. I liked how Dean threw werewolf Claire into the fridge. I just thought it was funny even though it wasn't supposed to be, I don't think.
What I disliked: I disliked the cure immensely. I disliked that once again, we had Claire starting off 2 steps back from where we last left her, so that she could learn the same lesson she's learned a few times already. I disliked Mick shooting the werewolf when Dean could've just as easily done it instead of sitting there looking at it when it was walking towards him. He's supposed to be the best hunter on the planet. I disliked that while Dean and Sam were in the entire episode, it felt more like the Mick/Claire show than Supernatural.
Neither a positive or a negative, just an observation. Claire is a terrible hunter. The fact that she's going to be hunting alone . . . I'm guessing that's the thing that was started in this episode that will carry over to next season. Realistically, it should be that someone gets a call next season to say she's dead. She might have a chance if she had a partner who was experienced, but on her own? Dean did hunts on his own when he was 26. Depending on how long Sam was gone, 3 years or so, that means Dean didn't start hunting without his dad until he was at least 23, because in the Pilot, Sam was surprised that Dean had been in New Orleans on his own, and Dean had been hunting or at least training to be a hunter since he was a kid (His Dad took him shooting for the first time when he was 6, etc.).
That's it for now. I'll add more if I think of anything.
-- "I disliked the cure immensely. I disliked that once again, we had Claire starting off 2 steps back from where we last left her, so that she could learn the same lesson she's learned a few times already. I disliked Mick shooting the werewolf when Dean could've just as easily done it instead of sitting there looking at it when it was walking towards him. He's supposed to be the best hunter on the planet. I disliked that while Dean and Sam were in the entire episode, it felt more like the Mick/Claire show than Supernatural."
Boy, I'll like this site so much better if we can get at least a quote option.
Anyway, I agree completely that this was a Mick/Claire episode, and IMO possibly the most obvious attempt at a "Claire the Surly Teenage Hunter" spin-off, which will very likely include the BMoL since these are the OC characters Dabb cares about so much more than he does the original leads of the show.
Yes, Dean and Sam were there ... other than that, I got nothing, because they did nothing, not really. But this is par for the course now, especially where it concerns Dean. My biggest disappointment with the episode is that, after her first two scripts, Glynn was looking like the resident Dean fan on staff. The one writer Dean fans might be able to count on to let Dean shine a little bit. After all, it was in those two scripts where Dean got to be a badass hunter, the only two scripts all season where he actually killed anything before the now weekly ridiculous pattern of insuring Dean not get the kill, or any kill, became a rote drinking game meme.
But, hey, at least she avoided falling into the other far worse weekly meme trap of sending Dean off into the cornfield to keep him out of the action. Little comfort, because since Glynn appears to have been brought to heel by Dabb, I have no doubt she'll start writing out Dean too.
But, seriously, does Dean even need weapons anymore? I think he should just clear out the Impala trunk and use it to haul groceries or flowers or something silly and benign, since apparently he has no use of weapons at all.
WRT to all the additions this year, I guess Mick is less annoying than the rest. I don't really have a problem with him, other than watching lots of screen time devoted to his redemption or whatever so he will work in a Claire spin-off.
We'll see if the CW announces a spin-off at the May upfronts.
3/10
"But, seriously, does Dean even need weapons anymore?"
Certainly not the grenade launcher. I think letting Ketch get to use one was a big slap in the face.
I know this isn't going to be popular but I think the reasoning that they aren't giving Dean the big kills is that they are making it that his hands are clean in on screen terms of the men of letters.
And even the vamp he killed with Ketch, it was kind of a mercy killing instead of letting her be left to Ketch.
Okay am grasping at straws but there has to be a reason for it.
I think the only reason they have been sending Dean to the woods is to show how great all the other characters are. The Winchesters should be legends by now, particularly Dean. They are personal friends of GOD. They have saved the world and actually ALL of Creation. Mary should be in awe of them. If she had shown the slightest interest in her sons or read the freaking Winchester Gospels she would see that.
So we are left with Mary and her British buddies who have taken out close to 300 monsters in the U.S (that we have seen) while Sam and Dean look like amateurs taking pity milk run assignments like a lone werewolf, a ghoul, a wraith and a Siren. Then they tease the grenade launcher and pay it off with Ketch using a bigger better one.
At the rate they are going the BoL will have a bigger monster tally then Sam or Dean have in the ENTIRE run of Supernatural. It just makes the BoL look even stupider for not chipping in for the Apocalypse, the Leviathans, Eve, and the Darkness (particularly when they could have just beat Lucifer with their magic egg).
Sorry for the vent but this season has really bugged me (and I stayed a fan even after season 7).
Tell me about it. But I'm hopin the idea is that the men of letters don't trust the brothers and basically want to control them by giving them easy jobs that keep them busy and silent and not willing to look a bit deeper into what the MoL are doing while they continually get little jobs that keep them busy.
shareVent away. Safe room lol.
BTW I agree with e-very word.
I can see what you're saying, but if that's what they're trying to do, it's not coming across that way at all. Talking about kills Dean has made off-screen by highlighting that he has bits of monster in his hair from clubbing them like a caveman (seriously, that's not how you kill sirens and wraiths) seems like they want to make him out to be unsophisticated, sloppy and incompetent compared to the more high-tech, sterile, and supposedly competent BMoL.
And werewolves seem to be Dean's achilles heel, because ever since he killed the rogue werewolves from Garth's pack in season 9, he's had a problem with them. Even right after he got cured of being a demon in 10.4, he had a difficult time with them, and he was supposed to still be suffering with the effects of the Mark of Cain.
If we're talking kills and importance in dealing with the MOTW this season:
Episode 1: Mary killed the BMoL woman from The Fall in the first episode.
Episode 2: Dean got trapped by Toni, needed Mary's help to get out of it, but did know the mind thing Toni was using on Mary and how to diffuse it.
Episode 3: Sam got rid of the spirit, but I think Dean keeping the spirit occupied was equally important and at the time brought up a prospect I thought they might use further down the road, namely that Mary would become Lucifer's vessel, and Dean would be faced with the same situation, which still might happen, but is looking unlikely given that Mark P. is back, and they now have that egg.
Episode 4: Dean disappeared for a good portion of the episode (an entire act) to go on a wild goose chase while Sam dealt with the family
Episode 5: Dean killed Hitler (ridiculous concept in an otherwise decent episode)
Episode 6: Team effort lead by Dean. Mary finished the exorcism.
Episode 7: Team effort at the end.
Episode 8: Lucifer was supposed to be a team effort, but really Cas and Crowley didn't do a whole lot. Dean stood there and yelled 'Sam!', while Sam held the egg and Rowena cast the spell. Then stupidity rained down on Cas, Dean, and Sam's heads for the ending of that episode to play out like it did.
Episode 9: Dean and Sam were together on getting out of their predicament. Cas killed Billie.
Episode 10: Cas killed Ishim
Episode 11: Dean killed the witches.
Episode 12: Sam killed Ramiel with Michael's spear.
Episode 13: Team effort, but Gavin is the one who gets the most credit.
Episode 14: Sam kills the Alpha Vamp with Mick's help. (Dean mercy kills a vampire off screen.)
Episode 15: Sam kills The Hellhound with help from the GotW and the green cooler.
Episode 16: Mick kills the werewolf.
Looking at this, there have been a lot of team efforts this season. And I don't know if it's intentional or not, but if you look at any time they've worked with the BMoL either knowingly or unknowingly, Sam or one of the BMoL has gotten the kill. I don't know if that's supposed to mean anything or not.
I don't know if there is or not. Am hoping that Dean being not front and centre in the on screen MoL kills is painting him as the one with the least taint.
Sam for crying out loud basically was happy with the extermination of all vampires even though he knows it isn't black and white but is willing to complain when it is werewolves? Come on! That gives Sam a real nasty taint.
"That gives Sam a real nasty taint."
Or extreme inconsistency as a character.
It would be nice if it was just inconsistency.
Just as the more we get of the brits the more like extremist/fascists they look and Sam didn't mention that monsters can be decent people until Dean was sitting beside him.
I never made the connection between the Negan bat and Dean being a caveman but that is brilliant and I think one of the major problems I have with this season. I like the summation of the episodes. The problem I have is in dialog the BoL have taken out 230 Vamps in the mid-west, 4 werewolf packs (1 with 20 dead), an Arlington ghoul, 3 ruguru's, the psychic plus Mary's shapeshifter, the vamp that outsmarted Cas and the werewolf pack she helped the twins with. This is so over the top that it has become a parody. You don't win over fans by making the characters they love look like ineffectual idiots.
share" The problem I have is in dialog the BoL have taken out 230 Vamps in the mid-west, 4 werewolf packs (1 with 20 dead), an Arlington ghoul, 3 ruguru's, the psychic plus Mary's shapeshifter, the vamp that outsmarted Cas and the werewolf pack she helped the twins with. This is so over the top that it has become a parody. You don't win over fans by making the characters they love look like ineffectual idiots."
I agree. The only thing I can think of to explain it is that there were a lot more 'good monsters' than we thought. If the only ones Dean and Sam go after are ones that have killed, then the others can only be explained because they weren't killing and hadn't drawn Dean and Sam's attention.
I agree with you 100% on this one. This is the first episode since Regarding Dean that I was excited about and all it ended up being was a backdoor Claire/Mick spin-off. All the remaining episodes this season are written by "SuperSam" writers or ones that don't care about Sam or Dean at all. I never believed it would get this bad.
shareI thought of something else that . . . well, I wouldn't really say it annoyed me, but it definitely made me think, 'What?' What's the deal with turning mice into werewolves? Wouldn't they cease to be werewolves and actually be something else entirely? There are a lot of things you can test out on mice because of the similarities between humans and mice, but lycanthropy isn't really one I would think flies.
shareI’m giving it a very generous 7 because it was entertaining, although I’d like a new monster every once in a while. I’m a bit over vampires and werewolves. But Dean is – thankfully - back to being sleuth Dean...he sussed out Mick right away. And Sam & Dean working as a team and having each other’s backs is – well it’s awesome!!
Love that they got to stay in a posh hotel, but teasing about Dean swimming is not nice, Andrew!
The constant competitive who’s the cleverest hunters - US versus Brits - theme has grown a bit tired.
I don’t expect anything but sullen moodiness so Claire was bearable. Maybe the spin off will be Wayward Daughters hunt the were-mice that couldn’t be healed (saw that on twitter and had to laugh).
7/10
**My main issue with this season is that I don’t care about any of the peripheral characters that have been introduced. I’m just not invested – they can all die... Mary, Claire, Baby Daddy, the lot at the BMOL (although I’m actually intrigued by Ketch and warming up to Mick and his weird beard).
OT – I live in a country with universal health care and am jealous that patients in the US apparently get a great big private hospital room all to themselves. Where I live she’d be bandaged and sent home to heal.
What I find I am doing now is watching each episode at some stage after it has been shown and then judging it alone. Therefore the fact that Dean hasn't had a kill or even been part of anything much all season does not come into my view of the episode until I read all the comments. This also of course applies to Sam and the issues with the writing for him and Cas and and and. As I just do not have any coherence in the Season, one episode is not memorable enough to lead into the next and so on. So I quite enjoyed this one because Dean was portrayed as a clever and sassy hunter. Sam not so much but still had some good Sam moments. I actually in the past have agreed with lots of people that the actress that plays Claire, well she just can't act!! However I thought she was not so bad in this episode, I got to believe her more than I have in the past. I am not sure if and even when I bother to rewatch the season as a whole if this will get better and I suspect not as although I have the DVDs for all seasons so far I have not watched the last four more than the gag reels and a few extras and I am invested less in this season than any other.
Does everyone now believe that the BMOL is into the next season or is there some other ideas about what they were talking about when mentioning “this would carry on to the next season”? If so I might just stick with fanfic rather than the show!!!
One of the biggest problems I see and I know this is something that other just don't bother with is that the big “influences” outside i.e. Fangasm, SuperWiki, podcasts between them etc all are full of praise because, in my opinion they are too invested in the people that are involved e.g. the actress that plays Mary etc and the writers …............ I just can't see how they can be critical of bad writing and bad acting and bad creative choices when they are far too deeply invested and close to the people they are supposedly doing critical evaluation on. Okay that's enough I am on my second and soon to be third glass of wine so best not go on any more!!
I believe some of them realize that some fans aren't happy. Sam Smith stated in an interview that she knows there are a lot of people that hate her character. Perez also made a joke about Dean being in an entire episode so he knows how much he was criticized. Add to that the ratings going down and there should be someone at the CW that understands knows there is a problem. I'm hoping for another Gamble type intervention to regroup next season.
share"Add to that the ratings going down and there should be someone at the CW that understands knows there is a problem. I'm hoping for another Gamble type intervention to regroup next season."
I'm hoping for an intervention also. I'm worried however that the writers will take the ratings as a sign that they're not doing that bad a job. SPN went up this week (0.6) and beat Legends again. I don't even mention Arrow (0.5) because we have been beating them for a few months now. When you have The Flash flirting with 0.8 and Supergirl stuck at 0.7, it's easy to fear that a showrunner such as Dabb would go, "look, the whole network's going down but my show's bouncing back; no need to listen to the naysayers, enough people are watching Supernatural" :(
"Does everyone now believe that the BMOL is into the next season or is there some other ideas about what they were talking about when mentioning “this would carry on to the next season”? If so I might just stick with fanfic rather than the show!!!"
Fanfic sounds good right about now lol.
I think it could be that Kendrick's School that Mick Davies mentioned, which of course means it's still about the BMOLs.
Also agree with you that some big influence sites are full of praise.
The actors and writers still know that people are unhappy. Dabb knew we didn't like the finale, and Samantha Smith knows Mary is unpopular.
I did enjoy it but did find it a bit predictable you sensed almost what was about to happen. Mick and the Werewolf was touch and go, wasn't expecting that. There were tense moments, and it felt an average monster of the week with the exception of Mick trying to kill the monster which almost backfired on him. It was interesting to watch Dean lay into Mick, watching his every move.
I think it deserves a 7.5 from me.
"One of the biggest problems I see and I know this is something that other just don't bother with is that the big “influences” outside i.e. Fangasm, SuperWiki, podcasts between them etc all are full of praise because, in my opinion they are too invested in the people that are involved e.g. the actress that plays Mary etc and the writers …............ I just can't see how they can be critical of bad writing and bad acting and bad creative choices when they are far too deeply invested and close to the people they are supposedly doing critical evaluation on."
Ding ding ding!! I am so glad to see somebody put this out there. It's been my feeling all season. So much smoke being blown up Dabb & Company's butts that they may well believe all is well. I sincerely hope they aren't so needy that they are unwilling to look beyond the almost-sycophantic praise they get from these people. They are, sadly, the only ones I see them responding to, so I am not holding out much hope.
7/10
One of the things I really like about this show is that there is usually something (whether it's a major plot point or an action in a minor scene) that catches me off guard. I like when "I did not see that coming." This episode was predictable on every level. It had some nice Dean and Sam moments, so I didn't dislike it, but it wasn't very intriguing.
It felt like a remake of the Hunteri Heroici episode. This time instead of Cas, it's Mick who decides to become a hunter; is over-confident that his skills give him an upper hand, only to learn hunting is harder than it looks; but in the end he has a supernatural "cure" that saves the day, gaining him the Winchesters' respect while learning a valuable lesson about himself. Again, it was predictable and not as entertaining this time around, especially without the talking cat.
It was predictable. But I also found it entertaining. At least I wasn't bored as I have sometimes been during other episodes this season.
Claire stomping off to get bitten by the werewolf was pretty stupid, as was the opening scenes with the brother and sister meandering slowly through a dark snowy forest. Who does that? It's supposed to build suspense but I'm sure most viewers knew exactly what was about to happen.
But at least Dean seems to be back to his old clever self and saw through Mick right away. They've kind of dumbed him down so much this season...I wasn't expecting that.
"... as was the opening scenes with the brother and sister meandering slowly through a dark snowy forest. Who does that? It's supposed to build suspense but I'm sure most viewers knew exactly what was about to happen."
This was probably the only thing that did surprise me. I was expecting the brother to be mauled when he wandered into the trees- I was not expecting the sister to scream/be attacked. But the rest- him being killed, her being turned- was pretty easy to guess.
"At least I wasn't bored as I have sometimes been during other episodes this season."
I'm actually enjoying this season MUCH more than S11. I was bored by the whole Amara storyline. And while she constantly repeated that she and Dean were bound together, I just never felt any connection between them. The whole storyline fell flat for me. I really do like S12. I still don't like the BMoL, but as long as the Winchesters are a part of their story, I'm happy to see where the story goes.
"But at least Dean seems to be back to his old clever self.... They've kind of dumbed him down so much this season"
I'm not sure what you mean by dumbing Dean down. I think maybe I'm just so grateful to see Dean acting/reacting instead of staring blankly at Amara that I might be missing something. I noticed a few over-the-top scenes of our brilliant hunter being uncharacteristically clumsy. And there was that ridiculously OOC beginning of Regarding Dean. But for the most part, I've been happy with S12 Dean. Maybe I'll feel differently when I re-watch the season.