We are not that far away from the finale now and just wondered what your thoughts were in where it might end, and lead into S13.
Will we still have Mary come S13, will she be sacrificed for the greater good? Or is it one of the boys turns to die?
Thoughts guys!
I heard someone say they like to see Mary survive as she still has potential. I like to see how she handles adjusting to life again, finding out about her father and maybe even see about hunting.
Well Satan is going to be a father and I guess for the finale we'll see if he or she born and what it means. Two antichrists with his baby and Jesse?
Vee, I like these as well except for Mary dying.
- Dean slaying the Nephilim with the Lance of Michael
When Dean picked up the lance I figured we're going to see him using it. Not sure if he will get the two pieces togther or just use the pointy end one.
- Mary making good on her threat to burn the BMOL to the ground and dying in the process
I agree she'll do some serious damage to the BMOL central HQ but not sure about the dying part. I'm kind of split on that. If she did die it would, I think, send Dean into a tailspin. Not so much Sam. He would be hurt but think he would accept it. If she didn't die I could see her stepping back from hunting and let the guys "carry on".
Then there's Cass going back up to heaven. When they took the stairway up I didn't have good feelings about it. He's done too much damage. When he went to enlist their help to destroy Amara, the group wasn't to happy to see him. I can see them putting him on trial. Outcome, unknown.
Crowley having Lucifer under his control. Not sure where this is going either. Keeping Lucifer penned up, so to speak, will definitely make him wanting revenge and that's not a good for anyone around him when he gets free.
"Vee, I like these as well except for Mary dying."
Do you feel she can be integrated in the story in a way that makes her palatable to the viewers? I'm not taking the position that because I hate Mary, everybody else does, but it's a known fact that she's not the most popular with the viewers. The actress addressed the issue herself in more than one interview (I made a post about her TV Line interview here). It seems like Mary as a character isn't 'working' for many viewers the way she's currently written. I guess I don't see how they're going to improve her. Her personality has been established and the response to it hasn't been positive. I don't know. We'll see what they have in store for her.
"When Dean picked up the lance I figured we're going to see him using it. Not sure if he will get the two pieces togther or just use the pointy end one."
The Righteous Man, True Vessel, Host of Heaven stan in me wants him to use it at full power, in a blinding blue light of glory lol.
"If she did die it would, I think, send Dean into a tailspin. Not so much Sam. He would be hurt but think he would accept it."
I guess I see it differently. Mary died before and Dean survived it. And that's when he remembered her as a loving mother who called him her angel, sang 'Hey Jude' to him when he was sick and fed him rice tomato soup. He's met her now, and his exact words to her were "why don't you try being a mom for once". I'm of the opinion that he wouldn't fall apart if she were to go back to Heaven. What has he gained from her being there except for hurt and disillusionment? Her deciding to retire on a farm far away works too. So long as she isn't around to constantly disappoint Dean. I'm sick of it.
"Then there's Cass going back up to heaven. When they took the stairway up I didn't have good feelings about it. He's done too much damage. When he went to enlist their help to destroy Amara, the group wasn't to happy to see him. I can see them putting him on trial. Outcome, unknown."
You think Kelvin might have tricked him? Made him think he's going up there for a second chance when it's actually an ambush? I wouldn't mind seeing that. I tend to doze off during the Heaven scenes but if Castiel is put on trial, like an actual angelic trial, it would be something we haven't seen before. I still want him to be welcome back in Heaven. Maybe they'll give him a series of trials to complete to prove he's worthy. Not trials like Sam but more like Job. Either way, I think it's unhealthy for him to be estranged from his celestial family. I know Team Free Will fans are squeeing when he calls the Winchesters family and wants to sacrifice for them. I see the shell of a formerly majestic being who's isolated, diminished, sad and desperate. Him loving the Winchesters is good after everything they've been through. His having no other option when it comes to family isn't.
"Crowley having Lucifer under his control. Not sure where this is going either. Keeping Lucifer penned up, so to speak, will definitely make him wanting revenge and that's not a good for anyone around him when he gets free."
This. I've been worried that Dagon could catch wind of where he is and try to free him (she expressed her admiration for Lucifer), and who knows what effect the burst of power from the nephilim being born could have on his genitor. I'd be surprised if Crowley managed to pin Lucifer down all season.
"The Righteous Man, True Vessel, Host of Heaven stan in me wants him to use it at full power, in a blinding blue light of glory lol."
That's what I want as well. Think it would be epic.
Sorry meant to add a note about Mary. Didn't mean to ignore you.
I think Mary will be around for a while. I agree I don't like the story line they have her doing. Some of it doesn't make any sense. Do feel in the beginning with her trying to understand her coming back to grown men and not the young boys she remembered was hard for her to accept. But then going off on her own without telling them was when I started to not accepting her myself. She didn't really them any real chance to connect. And still didn't when she told them she was working with BMOL, using the stance that their way is better. I noticed she didn't even listen to what Dean and Sam had to say about it. It was kind of her way or the highway type of attitude.
With the latest episodes showing both Sam and now Dean going to work with the BMOL (which I didn't believe Dean ever would) something is going to happen. I'm just not sure what.
"something is going to happen"
I have the same feeling. The story there can go MANY different ways :)
Dean has said yes, but I was chuffed with him when he said what I wanted to hear him say, that if there is any whiff of any trouble we pull out. So he's not going in wholeheartedly, he's playing his cards close to his chest. Good on Dean!!
I can see why Mary left the boys, and I can see why she found it hard to fit in, remembering her boys how they were so many years previously. It must have been a bit of a shock to see them as grown men in the flesh. I think Mary could have stayed longer with the boys and got to know them more. But can see why she was struggling to cope with the 21st century. She told Cas she wasn't happy and wanted space. I don't think the writers really thought those scenes through as well as they could have.
I like Mary, and don't feel they are doing her any favors. They are making her out to be horrible when she's not. They did the same with John which isn't fair at all.
I was also glad that Dean set his terms and I believe he will pull out if he doesn't like the way the BMOLs operate.
"They are making her out to be horrible when she's not."
I don't understand, Belle. How are they making her out to be horrible? And if they are, doesn't it mean that she's actually horrible? They're the ones writing the character and having Dean ask her to try to be a mom for once.
It's little things like wanting to leave her boys, John got so much grief when he went after YED and it's like they repeating stories. John got hung by posters and they made John out to be a dad that wasn't there for his boys leaving Dean to cope with Sam and be the parent on his own at such a young age. John did the best he could with what he was dealt and was mission orientated and wanted Mary's killer caught.
Mary operates in a similar way to John, she's head- strong and is driven by hunting wanting to go on a hunt on her own, leaving the boys on their own. Yes, they are grown, men, but the parallels are so similar it's uncanny. Mary got so much flack from fans for walking out on the boys, which makes her look or come across as a horrible mother who doesn't appear to have much time for her sons. Why leave them so soon, you would think she would want to be around them, not abandon them so soon
.
I agree with all that, My point is that if the writers make her out to be horrible, that means that she is horrible. I don't understand why you say "They are making her out to be horrible when she's not." They're in control of the character.
shareIt's just my perception of her the way she comes across on screen, that she appears a nice person underneath if that makes any sense. But the writers weave in stories that make you the viewer feel different about her because of the way they put her across on screen.
shareI see where you're coming from :)
shareWe've been speculating a whole lot and I still have no idea.
What I would like to see:
- Sam and Dean fighting on the same team
- the nephilim being born and creating new threats that the boys will have to wipe out in season 13
- Dean slaying the nephilim with the Lance of Michael
- Mary making good on her threat to burn the BMOL to the ground and dying in the process
- I don't even care what Lucifer is doing anymore lol.
- Dean slaying the Nephilim with the Lance of Michael
- Mary making good on her threat to burn the BMOL to the ground and dying in the process
I like these two Vee, particularly Dean's line I can see him doing that
Mary burning down the Men of Letters HQ interesting, but don't think I like to see her die in a fire a second time, though. Two much pain to put the boys through a second time. Too tragic.
I understand that. That wish is purely selfish because I can't stand Mary. I don't believe the boys would be emotionally crippled by her second death however.
shareWe also have the "Cosmic Consequences" for killing Billie.
shareThere was a spoiler about that. Something to the effect that Castiel was dealing with things that felt like they could be cosmic consequences for killing Billie.
Wow... there are so few episodes left. And so much territory to cover. I have a feeling it isn't going to go very smoothly. Nephilim, Lucifer, BMOL's, Toni, Mary and hopefully they can squeeze the brothers in there somewhere...just a lot of story left to tell.
shareI'm always startled when I remember how many episodes we have left. Unless every upcoming episode is heavy with mytharc development, things could get a bit cluttered toward the end.
"hopefully they can squeeze the brothers in there somewhere..."
From your mouth to the SPN gods ears! Here's to hoping :)
I hope it isn't a race to get to the end, as they often do this most seasons, they cram everything into the last couple of episodes. Pacing I guess is still a point with this show. I am finding the Mythology a bit thin on the ground this season, anyone else finding this? We seem to have had more MoTW's.
When you think about it, they have almost finished filming since we are in the middle of March, they probably only have another couple of episodes to film. Which is a scary thought? Then the boys can have a three month deserved break with their families. I wonder if Gen has had the baby yet, any news on that front?
Mythology is definitely thin to nonexistent, and a "hurry up and finish" last gasp is pretty much guaranteed at this point. But, as you said, it's the same problem now every single year. Nobody in charge seems to know how to pace things anymore.
shareI have been struggling with this season, I started watching live from Season 3, have all the DVDs etc but I am not sure I will get Season 12 as there are so few episodes that I want to watch again. So it is a bit difficult for me to get up enough enthusiasm to try and work out where we will end up. I hope but don't expect that Mary goes off into the sunset somehow! I was not too sure about her coming in, although the first episode with her in worked for me but it went rapidly downhill so an end to that storyline would suit me, probably the only way would to be go out in a blaze of glory saving everyone from the BMOL. I don't think they will continue the BMOL into the next season, I am hoping that they have had enough negative feedback to realise that won't work so perhaps we end up finding out what the old men are behind the BMOL and Sam, Dean et al have to bring them down. Not sure about the nephilm and Lucifer storyline will be, as with most of you I really can't get myself to care much. I do notice however that Jensen and Jared seem to be in Vancouver an awful lot more than they used to be so I guess they want as many continuing actors as possible to cover the fact that they are not in the episodes so much. This really can only work IMO if you have really really good writers who can make the story so good and intertwining Sam and Dean enough that you don't notice it and we just don't have that quality of writers unfortunately.
shareI have to agree about the S12 DVD. For the first time ever I don't think I will be adding it to my collection. I've only watched one episode worth watching again.
shareI stopped buying the dvds after season 5, and even those I never went back to watch given the finale. I think I only bought the dvds for the silly little car that came with them that year.
My plan has been to see where the series goes, and if - and that's a big IF - the series finale is a good one, I'd go back and buy a series dvd set. But at the rate things are going, and if they continue on this course, hoping for a good series finale feels like a pipe dream. I just don't see it happening.
I think season 12 is pretty terrible, but I wasn't any happier with season 11 - I think I only really liked a couple episodes out of the whole season, and 12 is matching that low count.
I know I'm going to get yelled at here but well...... I'd kind of think they are heading with
- The nephilim being born and Dean taking it and handing it over to say Lily Sutter seeing how she knows angel magic, can handle herself and doesn't seem to be embroiled in the petty crap. Because like it or not Lucifer's spawn or not it is a baby who hasn't done anything to anyone. And the writers don't have the balls or the skill to kill it in the same way they killed the baby in Being Human. They'd make it evil or make it a complete innocent who was murdered. But Dean taking it and handing it over to someone to actually raise after so many harping on how it had to die or it is nuture over nature - well it is the kind of thing the right thing to do.
- Sam and Mary realising that the men of letters are worse than they think and realise they willingly worked with them. Even if they don't realise that until Dean walks out on them because he can't trust them to do the right thing over the baby. So yeah I wouldn't be cut up if the brothers are apart at the end of the season.
- Mary to start actually well being likeable. I wish that the writers wouldn't do down the boys parents but they have. I'm not asking for saints but Mary's attitude and the fact she was hunting when pre the fire, well it makes John more sympathetic but I wish they hadn't decided to do that in the way they have.
- I'd like other men of letters chapter houses to come out of the wood work just so someone could explain it to me why the french woman waited for a US sub during WW2 and didn't try to go to London. Why? Did the Brits piss everyone else off or did everyone else evolve and the Brits didn't or did the Brits get inflitrated by someone else.
Nothing in season 12 has grabbed my interest and Mary has turned out to be a disappointment.
Bumbling BMOL returns to London tail between their legs
Mary returns to heaven (floats off happily not violently killed)
Baby Daddy Lucifer locked up again in cage (oops but Michael escapes)
Baby Luci goes to live with Jodi and turns out to be a cute regular baby
Cas decides heaven is too political and grows some balls (and wings)
Sam and Dean actually feature in a blockbuster of a season finale which has us all gagging for season 13.
Not expecting any of this to happen. :(
I like the idea from Forest and Pond about Dean taking the baby to someone to look after whether it's Lily Sutter or Jodi. I can see him doing this. I also think Lucifer will be locked away again as it's all this show can seem to come up with. Boring ....... YAWN! I wouldn't like to see anything bad happen to Mary, not wanting round 2 of the pilot. If she goes off to Heaven all well and good for me. I think she's waiting for that to happen anyway. Like Forest, I think it would be interesting to see more Men of Letters appear, it would help to explain certain areas.
shareLucifer may surprise us, by taking one for the team.
As for Mary, I hope they start making her likeable or just have her leave or even understandable because her action right now aren't.
I agree with Lucifer, that he may surprise us. He is cunning and knows how to trick people. I can see him taking Cas since he's his own kind. But he's already Taken his meat-suit as a possession so it would be nothing new. If he were to take Sam or even Dean, that would be interesting. But would Lucifer still want Sam's vessel? Would he use Dean as a bargaining chip against Michael? Just a thought!!
It's annoying me too about Mary. I don't think she will be around long term, so removing her from the cast seems the viable option right now. I don't think she will ever become a regular cast member.
If they are going Lucifer taking a vessel route I can see them going Mary rather than Sam. We haven't addressed the fact she is of the bloodline as well as her sons.
The problem for me with Mary is that they have never exactly shown her to put her family above her agenda. Sure she plays lip service to it but she put the MoL agenda above her sons with the colt, we saw her hunt and her skills are too sharp not to say she wasn't hunting right up to her first death. That means she wasn't simply lying to John because she was buying into normal so much and didn't want to admit the deal was going to happen but she was leading a double life. And not only that, thanks to the wording of the hunt in the Asa episode she wasn't hunting as a way to try and find a way to stop the deal. And I know people don't agree with me but we saw her back when knowingly pregnant pick up a blade go into a fight and then not ask for medical attention after being slammed into a windshield with enough force that can only be compared with a car crash. Then we don't see John demand she is taken to a doctor either so I have to question did John know she was pregnant at that time either.
They've ripped any sympathy I would have had for her away and I know this is hard I don't know how they would get it back.
I never got the impression that John knew Mary was pregnant. I despise the Mary that we are being shown. Samantha says we will love her again but I think the hole Dabb dug for Mary is way too deep. The sooner she is dealt with (as in gone from the show) the better for her sons and the fans.
shareSee I never got that impression either because oblivious John who'd beg for his job, who'd pray to save Mary would have gotten her to a doctor. So with that being the case and she could tell Dean she was I have to wonder what the hell is going on? Because that and the overall picture of Mary - not good.
And I agree the hole Dabb has dug Mary is so sodding deep I can't see her coming out of it. Mary is...well Rowena is a better mother because at least she is consistent in manipulating people to screw over her son, even though I do think she confessed so easily so Crowley would be more pissed at her than Gavin.
So I don't know how Mary is going to become loveable seriously, when did the say we'd like Mary?
Vee posted the interview with Samantha on this site somewhere (I can't remember which thread). She also said it at the last convention she attended. I will try to find the video if I can.
shareThis isn't the link to the interview you guys are talking about, but I thought I'd put it here, because I think it fits, and I find how Samantha sees Mary interesting.
http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/02/supernatural-samantha-smith-mary-winchester-season-12
These are my thoughts. I'm sort of where Dean was at the end of episode 12.2; looking through old photos (episodes) and trying to reconcile the woman we've been shown in the past to the woman we've got now. It makes it seem like she was never the woman we saw prior to this season (pilot, etc.), and the way Samantha sees it, she was that woman, she's just not that woman right now because of this journey she's been on this season.
I think they should've shown her journey if they wanted us to connect to her, and they just haven't done that. They had her leave and stay off-screen to deal with these issues when showing her going through these things would've been much more interesting. I'm not sure what they could've sacrificed to do it, but I'm thinking the Lucifer jumping from vessel to vessel at the start of the season would've been fine with me. This show is (or used to be) as much about characterization and character interactions as it is how the supernatural world impacts on the characters, and they've gotten really lazy with it lately, not just with Mary, but with Sam and Dean too.
I think Rick Springfield was their big stunt for the first half of the season. RS was only available for a few episodes so they had to put Mary on hold. Unfortunatly that seemed to mean she had to leave the Bunker to "find" herself off screen. Why that "journey" seemed to mean that she couldn't connect with her own sons and had her betray and lie to them was one of the worst character assasinations the show has ever done.
Evidently the writers were not happy with rehashing Lucifer. I think they had very different ideas about the BMOL's and Mary (that should have given them plenty of story for the entire season). I agree that SPN is best known for the characterization of the family Winchester and how the supernatural world impacts their lives, however this showrunner and group of writers don't seem to be capable of writing that kind of complex story. What we seem to be getting now is more of a Charmed meets American Crime type of show.
The Impala chats weren't just fan service. They were neccessary conversations that anchored the audience to the brothers lives. Where they talked to each other about how they felt about all the events and people that impacted them. There was no one better on television that pulled those conversations off better than the J's. They could make the dialogue so real. I do not understand why Dabb discarded the shows greatest strength.
If you watch and listen to Rock Never Dies Berens wrote some pretty scathing dialogue about how he and Dabb feel about fans. After that episode I felt insulted and stupid for being a fan of the show. Dabb wants to write his own story whether the fans like it or not. Right now I'd have to say most of us are in the "not" category.
Arrow's ratings were abysmal this week. They got a .5 with less than 1.4 million viewers. I have a horrible feeling with the next ep being about Claire and the lack of interest in Lucifer/Mary/BMOL's and no J's we might see our first .4 ever. Someone needs to take Dabb to the woodshed for wrecking the Lamborghini.
"I agree that SPN is best known for the characterization of the family Winchester and how the supernatural world impacts their lives, however this showrunner and group of writers don't seem to be capable of writing that kind of complex story."
Dabb is not interested in the Winchesters and I saw it in Alpha & Omega. The way he dealt with Sam and Dean reacting to Dean having to carry the soul bomb was the moment I started to worry. I was also saying on IMDb how based on the spoilers the Winchesters had no story and weren't the focus of the upcoming season. I would have loved to have been proven wrong. Unfortunately, I wasn't.
"Arrow's ratings were abysmal this week. They got a .5 with less than 1.4 million viewers. I have a horrible feeling with the next ep being about Claire and the lack of interest in Lucifer/Mary/BMOL's and no J's we might see our first .4 ever."
The ratings are bad. All of the CW shows are suffering but for a while, SPN was doing better than the rest. We were losing viewers like everybody but not dropping like a rock. Well, That's over. I remember telling GG in her guess the ratings thread that this season was worth a 0.5, and that was around episode 5. I'm done wishing for this show to get the best possible ratings because I love it so much. There won't be any change until the quality of the writing is reflected by the ratings. If it's a 0.4 or worse, so be it.
"Someone needs to take Dabb to the woodshed for wrecking the Lamborghini."
One can only hope.
I agree with everything you've said.
With Rock Never Dies, there are quite a few lines that stuck out to me.
"Lucifer: I've had my fill of the diehards. They already love me. Religion, celebrity, Twitter – it's all the same rules. If you're not gaining followers, you're losing followers. I want a different crowd tonight. New fans.
Manager: Look, getting a new audience is great for social media visibility, which is great for overall buzz, but they're fickle. They don't spend any money on music. They have no loyalty. Good luck translating their attention to album or ticket sales."
Seems like the network talking to a show runner to me. I guess that just looking at those two lines, which one is which is left up to how you decide to think of Dabb, but then there are these other remarks from the manager (earlier in the episode): "We've raided, repackaged, and resold everything else from our past . . . " (They seem to be doing this a lot this season)
And these from Lucifer (at the end): "Nothing down here but a bunch of hopeless distraction addicts, so filled with emptiness, so desperate to fill up the void… they don't mind being served another stale rerun of a rerun of a rerun."
Again, I guess it depends on which one you think is Dabb. Is he a petulant show runner who wants to gain new fans and do his own thing, maybe change a show that had 11 years of history before he got this job vs. the network (or possibly Bob Singer) saying, 'No, we need to keep the old fans and stick to a formula we know works'? Or is he the one who wants to stick with the formula and is being told to change it and get new fans? Personally, I think it's the former given his ideas on fan service and the way Lucifer killed the manager in the episode. It is interesting though.
"Someone needs to take Dabb to the woodshed for wrecking the Lamborghini."
Where's our resident whipping aficionado when we need him? ;)
"This show is (or used to be) as much about characterization and character interactions as it is how the supernatural world impacts on the characters, and they've gotten really lazy with it lately, not just with Mary, but with Sam and Dean too."
I agree wholeheartedly. The lack of focus on Sam and point of view and emotional journey is one of my biggest criticism for season 12 and it started exactly in Alpha & Omega, which was written by the current showrunner.
You're right about there being a major tonal shift in Alpha & Omega. I'd actually say that it started several episodes before that with a noticeable drop in We Happy Few (it was all Rowena, Crowley, Lucifer, and Chuck in that episode), and what pushed it off the cliff was Alpha & Omega because too much of the episode revolved around Toni, the part of the episode leading up to the soul bomb idea dragged, and there was an obvious lack of any meaningful dialogue while everyone was waiting around in the bar for Dean to explode. It makes you wonder what the episode looked like before the actors got involved in trying to fix it. I have no doubts that it was worse.
shareI'd worry more about the lack of Sam pov and emotion if Dean wasn't almost completely absent from the season in general - and not just pov and emotion. I mean like not even there more often than not - but even when he is there, he really isn't. Sam's at least getting written for - Dean, except for one or two episodes, isn't at all.
I do agree that the season 11 finale was undoubtedly much worse than we got, and my feeling is that the big bone of contention for not one, not two, not three, but FOUR regular actors is the probability that Dabb wrote almost the entire episode for Lady Toni, who he thought was going to be his big personal break-out star. It was bad enough that half the episode was devoted to this brand new character that nobody gave a damn about, but I'm guessing Dabb's original intention was to have almost the entire episode be about her, and the Js and Ms finally got fed up.
"Alpha and Omega" was when I fully realized that "Bloodlines" wasn't a fluke - that was all Dabb, it's his style, and he really has no interest at all in the Winchesters, and not just Dean. The only reason Sam still gets attention paid to him is Singer. But in general I feel like Dabb really dislikes the Winchesters, and that's why he came up with Mary - she's the only Winchester he cares about, and except for her name she's essentially an OC the way she's being written. And how interesting that she's the second female OC Dabb has created who doesn't like the brothers (because, let's be honest, she doesn't), and is highly unlikable. Again, this is clearly his pattern.
I really do agree with everything you said here.
Shoving so much Toni in actually cut so much out of that episode and what did they give us a stuck up stereotypical English bitch.
"It was bad enough that half the episode was devoted to this brand new character that nobody gave a damn about, but I'm guessing Dabb's original intention was to have almost the entire episode be about her, and the Js and Ms finally got fed up"
Hey PA, did the guys express their disapproval of the episode? I completely missed this.
It was stated by the guys at a couple of cons last year that the four of them had talked to Dabb about the finale, and that the actors had initiated the conversations, not the other way around. I forget exactly how it was worded, and how many of them admitted to talking to Dabb, but the context was such that it sounded like they all had concerns. And you don't get four actors contacting the writer/showrunner just to chat or for no reason.
shareThank you, PA. CluelessDrifter just provided this link to last year's JIB Con (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6HOPOtEijw) and I can definitely see the actors had concerns about the script.
Yeah I like how Jensen tried to sell it as a collaborative effort and the mocking of the endings of the last episodes
But a bunch of actors don't call the writers and stay on the phone for an hour if they are happy, especially two who although are major players aren't the stars no matter how comfortable they are in their role
They could have just got away with Toni with two scenes and that would have worked.
But again I am of the opinion that Dabb is sick of the father issues and decided he is going to pile on with the mother issues to the point if it continues I wonder if he has a problem with women. 6 female authority figures who make dick/evil moves in the space of half a season? Not to mention this season the mention of sex becoming more explicit as power plays or punishment and only being a female move?
We weren't stupid that Lucifer and Alastair sexually assaulted the boys when they tortured them but it wasn't explicitly said but Toni drugging and essentially mentally raping Sam and Fiona's teacher.
Come on Dabb what is going on here!
"Yeah I like how Jensen tried to sell it as a collaborative effort and the mocking of the endings of the last episodes"
Yeah, Jensen kept it cute lol but the fact that M2 got involved as you say, proves that the actors simply couldn't stay silent after they finished reading the script.
You'd think this would have humbled Dabb somewhat, but the way he justified and defended his finale (after all the 'collaborative' work that was required to make it average instead of downright disastrous) tells me he's drunk on power and too wrapped up in his 'vision' to admit that his way isn't working.
+ 1.
share" It makes you wonder what the episode looked like before the actors got involved in trying to fix it."
What happened? I completely missed this.
JIB Con last year. Here's the link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6HOPOtEijw Start at around the 3:20 mark.
shareThanks a bunch!
Wow... to be a fly on that wall when they were on the phone with the writers and producers.
Yeah, the 'to get it to the shape it was in' doesn't bode well for where the script was before they got involved.
I'll add that I like that Misha and Mark feel comfortable enough in their roles on the show to also give that kind of feedback to the writers.
"Yeah, the 'to get it to the shape it was in' doesn't bode well for where the script was before they got involved."
I agree. I've seen Jensen do this many times and I know this is his classy way to say that the script had issues.
The finale was not well-received after all the 'improvements'. I shudder to think what it would have been without them.
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I very much agree as this Sam is all over the place.
Sam who can survive Lucifer's cage, Sam who didn't break under physical torture can't stand sitting in a prison without someone talking to him?
Well that doesn't make sense as we haven't seen him truly struggling after Toni's mind screwing. And he would have had to have had major periods when Lucifer left him alone in the cage just to screw with his head even in the sense Lucifer was just changing up how he was screwing with Sam. But the US government does it and suddenly Sam is going to crumble in less time than it takes him to give up personal grooming habits?
It isn't as if the brothers are shown to be that patriotic in the grand scheme of things so it being that part of the reason Sam is jittery.
Same goes for Dean - he survived 30 years on the rack. If it take weeks of being ignored does it mean Alastair and hell are piss poor torturers compared to the US government and if so, well come on! The US government interigation techniques are better at screwing with folk than heaven or hell - propaganda clean up on aisle 3 please!
Then they have the guys incapacitate everyone and then Ketch kill everyone on that base? Seriously one minute the US are the best at breaking people and then it is so piss poor at everything?
And the characterisation of Sam this season all I take away is that simply all you have to do to get him to do anything is the following.
-Slapped him down
-Give him a piss poor apology for that and any betrayals after that,
-Then give him just a little bit of attention (a la Mary)
-Make him feel a little powerful while spinning him a line (killing the alpha and Ramiel did that)
And then he's yours, he'll sign up for anything and everything and act as a recruiting agent for you too.
WTF. As much as I didn't like all of Carver's plays season 12 Sam rips every bit of growth Sam has had in the past three seasons.
"Sam who can survive Lucifer's cage, Sam who didn't break under physical torture can't stand sitting in a prison without someone talking to him?
Same goes for Dean - he survived 30 years on the rack. If it take weeks of being ignored does it mean Alastair and hell are piss poor torturers compared to the US government and if so, well come on! The US government interigation techniques are better at screwing with folk than heaven or hell - propaganda clean up on aisle 3 please!"
Yep. I said the same thing about First Blood. The boys breaking after a few weeks in isolation didn't work for me but the entire prison plot was clunky to me. I'll never get over them staying behind like a couple of dumbasses, taking their sweet time babysitting the prez instead of taking off. There were much more elegant ways to get them into custody without turning them into complete idiots.
"And the characterisation of Sam this season all I take away is that simply all you have to do to get him to do anything is the following.
-Slapped him down
-Give him a piss poor apology for that and any betrayals after that,
-Then give him just a little bit of attention (a la Mary)
-Make him feel a little powerful while spinning him a line (killing the alpha and Ramiel did that)"
In a way, we've seen this before with Ruby and Amelia. Sigh.
Looking at that whole scene... When the government agent/soldier? was searching the room and found Cas in the closet then Cas was able to do the mind suggestion Angel mojo on him. The agent/soldier then went back out to the car and told the other agent/ soldier and the POTUS it was all clear. He then got back in the car saying they would wait out there. POTUS went in to motel room and then the capture Luci plan plays out. While Sam was fighting with the egg to overcome Lucifer our view cuts out to the agents/soldiers in the car and you can see the one Cas whammied shake his head as if he were coming out of the mind control. I'm thinking it had something to do with his close proximity to the egg. If I remember right it happened when Sam had to kick it into overdrive due to Lucifers resistance. Im thinking Sam and Dean believed that they were covered because of what Cas did and that no one would be walking in on them. They thought he had bought them enough time so that they could make sure the PRESIDENT was okay. They didn't realize the mind control had worn off.
shareI know that the mind control wore off and from what I remember, it was at the moment Rowena cast the spell and there was this burst of power in the room. The thing is, Sam and Dean do not have a time frame on how long the mind control holds. E-verybody was running out of that cabin as fast as they could. They stood there, marveling at the fact that they got rid of Lucifer and then started making small talk with the president. As soon as they did what they needed to do, they should have been out the door like the others. Secret Service was going to take care of the president anyway. It was yet another clunky moment in a generally poor episode.
shareI agree with Vee, I think it was a set up so they were taken to prison and we learn they later escape weeks later. Dean did say something to Rowena for her to act on that spell but can't remember what he said, something like 'Now Rowena' and she lit the bowl with whatever to start the spell off. But the small talk moment did pee me off as they could have escaped at that moment. But for the latter scene to take shape they had to stand there and offer their sympathies to the president. They made such an issue of those short seconds. It wasn't well written and lacked the punch that those boys as seasoned hunters really deserved. They shouldn't have been taken prisoners they should have been able to have gotten free.
shareBut it isn't just that and yeah Bella you can say I'm majorly over thinking things.
Where is the aftermath where the brothers essentially become the most wanted terrorists on the planet?
Logic fail or what? Because even if the President is brain fussy, the secret service and the military housing them isn't. There is a god damn paper trail of two unnamed prisoners who needed to be fed and housed, dripping in the blood of massacred soldiers who died on US soil. Where is the Doctor Whoesque Donna Noble paper trail moment akin to noting there is no sickness record.
And I know they said there was no record of the brothers but there would be a record of a functioning base because power and water and food etc would need to be accounted for even if it is under the heading Tank Dump. And those soldiers would need a cover story about where the hell they were deployed for their families. There prisoners may be unnamed but there would be someone higher up expecting intel from them after they are integrated.
So there would be someone needing to go to the base to find out why they've lost contact even if it was to find out why electric bill is getting to high after the lights were left on. Because I can't see Ketch caring about making sure the utilities were sorted after murdering everyone. Once those bodies were found including the best integrator in the cosmos, someone would backtrack through the paperwork to find out what or who the fuck was on that base or what it was doing - hence the brothers becoming US military priority akin with them wanting the head of ISIS on a plate.
I got before this season we could explain away the brothers not being in the cross hairs for law enforcement. After season 3 the FBI thought they were dead and up to last season they had forces in position that didn't want them to be on the FBI's most wanted.
The angels needed them free up to the end of season 5 so could influence what info was going around law enforcement. The two Levi's that caused them to go on the run - their bodies were used to fake the boys deaths again and Crowley he had demons working within government to make sure the boys weren't really on official radar. As it would be personal pride with him to be the one to end the boys if he wanted that not have a part time Deputy from nowhereville Idaho doing it.
But right now Angels outside Cas aren't caring what humans are really doing and they don't seem to be willing to go out of their way to ensure the Winchesters are walking about. Crowley is fighting to keep hell together and having buddy cop moments with Cas. Organising Demons to work within the NSA isn't high on his priorities.
So how the hell after the escape and the soldier massacre isn't every branch of the US military and law enforcement hunting Sam and Dean Winchester with order to kill on site??? The British Men of Letters? If they are that powerful to kill the soldiers and then wipe the base and Sam and Dean out of the official record why the hell isn't it just ordering up a few branches of US special forces to order around. Why have Mick set up meetings with the likes of Wally who just fights ruguras?
These episodes raise huge problems for the few pay offs we get.
Yes at some point someone has asked why hadn't a demon decided to possess the leader of any nation and now we get the answer.
Yes we get the start of the nephilim story
Yes we get the death of Billie and the so called cosmic consequences at some point
Yes we get Mary becoming more trusting of the Men of Letters
But
We get a figgidity Sam and Dean that broke in a way that doesn't make sense
We get a US government that seems to let soldiers die on US soil and they don't look into it to the point Sam and Dean are confident enough to not change their FBI MO to ask questions.
We get the question if the MoL can send one man into a US rendition base and end everyone why they hell do they only have one Mr Ketch? Britain has more than one psycho, it has its own special forces - train them. There should be in effect and an army of Ketchs to the point that the MoL don't need to actively recruit any American hunters.
I actually don't mind that they were taken prisoners. That's where the story was going. They could have escaped, been in the Impala and had a mini car chase where they ended up sandwiched by 2 Secret Service cars (since the security guy, I think his name was Sanchez was after them anyway) and then be taken down in a melee, Dean trying to distract SS while telling Sam to run, and Sam being apprehended anyway because SS had the place surrounded.
Bam! Same end, but your heroes go down like badasses instead of suckers. Jensen has proven he can do car chases. Line up a couple more extras in suits, and the scene is done. But noooo, they had our legendary heroes sitting around like bobbleheads, Arghh! lol.
I agree with you and the whole thing could have been easily turned into why Sam is more open to the Men of letters if the scenario was closer to a chase as you described
It is the second time he got taken and again he feels he was part of the reason Dean also got caught. Because Dean's priority is still to look out for him. The deal with Billie was made by Dean, so Dean is again coming to his rescue. In his head he's lost his agency within his family, he's playing peacemaker for everyone else and he's tired and he doesn't know really what he can do differently and get somewhere to show himself that it isn't the case as even his mother is keeping him kind of at arms length even though he gets she needs time, but she is still closer to his brother. But then Mary comes in and says about working with the Brits, it isn't simply to play intermediary between her and his brother he can do something.
I would have gotten that. Sam has a full on thought process that are new while still showing he has his older insecurities but there are reasons they are resurfacing.
Also it would make sense that normality would be an attractive option if the men of letters offered relocation and a way to hide if they work with them as Sam was finding at every turn the Winchesters were now on government radar. And I'm not talking about law enforcement but Home land security, CIA and everyother intelligence committee the US has got. Because the massacre being done and dusted for the Winchesters being on the government's radar makes no sense. THe Government not wanting the Winchesters now after and attack on the President and the dead soldiers is like them saying they had Bin Laden but he ducked out for donuts but thats okay as it is break time so they decided not to look anymore.
I agree that there were ways to get them into custody without making them idiots, there were ways to make them want to get out without making it look like every other torturer that has been in the show needs to go to USA interrogation class.
Also having them need to be willing to do anything to get out other than them not coping - such as the need to go after the nephilim or them not being sure if Lucifer is actually gone. But having the brothers break in that prison cell so easily, neither had given up personal hygiene or anything to show they were mentally breaking and giving up. Well seriously, that is such bad writing I can't comment.
As for Sam this season - I agree that we've seen it before with Ruby and Amelia. But after the mess with the Darkness I kind of felt Sam had grown and got that that he was guilty of screwing up after he got to feel like he was saving the day when everything else told him that was not the way to go.
"As for Sam this season - I agree that we've seen it before with Ruby and Amelia. But after the mess with the Darkness I kind of felt Sam had grown and got that that he was guilty of screwing up after he got to feel like he was saving the day when everything else told him that was not the way to go."
I honestly didn't see it like that. The first thing Sam said after the Darkness was released and her cloud started killing people was: Dean, I unleashed a force that can end the world for you, AND I'D DO IT AGAIN. Yes, he felt very guilty about people dying and such, and he was ready to die himself as long as Dean got to have a life (his prayer in the chapel), but he still thought he did what he needed to do to save his brother. Being willing to suffer and be punished for it is different than thinking he shouldn't have done it in the first place.
This 'the end justifies the means' is a personality trait that I really noticed in Sam in Jus In Bello when he didn't fight Ruby's suggestion to kill the virgin to save everybody else. He's the 'you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs' type and I don't think that part of him is going away.
Thanks.
Though as for interesting, sure she can be interesting but they have taken interesting and forgotten human. They are saying she can't relate to them and then she basically puts the colt mission above her children, because she could have at least tried to give it back to Ramiel. Apologised...something that doesn't make her look like a manipulative bitch to be honest.
Because her actions speak louder than words even pre first death and they aren't good.
-The actions in the song remains the same. Her being pregnant and only caring about it when it prevents her from being separated from John even though we have no evidence John knows about the pregnancy.
-The hunting after Dean is born (and it not being linked to trying to stop the deal)
-Her skills being so sharp that you have to guess that she was hunting up until her first death
-That means she lied to John for 10 years and disappeared on him and her sons on a regular basis
-The fact that there has been no discussion that she even tried to stop that deal at all or even ward the house to try and to protect her family. Her familiarity and on going hunting and the Campbell resources mean she can't play possum on the fact that she had the resources to at least try.
And after she came back
As much as I get her joining the BMoL if she truly believes Toni is rogue I don't get the rest
-The bringing her sons in as basically muscle and a distraction so showing she doesn't trust them
-The holding back on the colt when it is possible at that point she can use it as a bargining chip to save her boys. Cas could have died not knowing why he had been put in that position in the first place. Wally did die.
-The only coming clean about the colt because the vamps attacked and the look when she said Bobby Singer. You don't get to do semi snide/guilty snide eye about someone who was actually there for your children, even in a capacity you don't like, when you've acted in ways that put them in further danger and held out on info that could help them.
-And also very damning once she opened up, she reached out to Sam because Dean wasn't talking to manipulate the situation. But if you scratch the surface it speaks multitudes about Sam and Mary's relationship. She only reaches out to Sam when she hasn't got other options. I say this because Sam said when Dean lost his phone after being whammed by the witch that he text Mary to tell her to call him if she needed anything, so I have to ask has she been talking to Sam? Or has she been texting Dean and Sam is getting Mary attention second hand? If so that sucks especially in light of him being the one that is giving her more latitude and time and space and is saying that her being there makes things make sense.
So the idea that we will get a Mary we can love? The Mary they've given us is not a nice person, even when you take into account she needs time. I say this as even though John could be a stuck up hard bastard, I got where he was coming from and would trust that he is actually doing what he thought was best for his sons. This Mary outside being Samuel's daughter through and through I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw her.
"Because her actions speak louder than words pre and post first death and they aren't good."
Yeah, but I think a lot of what we're seeing as problems with her are mostly post death.
We all knew she lied to John at least about being a hunter in the past, but as long as we didn't know her, it was something we could forgive, because she died for her sins.
Some people thought that maybe Michael wiped her memories of her deal along with meeting Dean (Not me. I definitely thought that Mary recognizing Azazel in the vision Azazel showed Sam during AHBL was enough to say she at least remembered the deal), but we've gotten confirmation this season that wasn't the case (Although why he erased Dean being there during the deal doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. They could've just said that Michael erased her memories of The Song Remains the Same, but I guess they needed to have a reason for Mary not to connect with her adult children in any way even if one of those ways was to have her remember meeting Dean on what was presumably the second worst night of her life). That means that for 10 years she knew about her deal, didn't tell John, didn't ward her house, etc., and that raises all kinds of questions about her that maybe we might've wondered about in the past, but again, she died for her sins, so it was forgivable. We could live without knowing, but now that she's here, and none of those issues are being addressed, it makes them stand out more.
She was shown to be a caring mother who cut the crusts off PB & J sandwiches for Dean, made Dean soup when he sick, etc. We were given the idea that maybe Dean's love of pie came from Mary (DSotM). Now we find out that she didn't cook, which is fine, but as Dean's perception of her changes with that one little admission, it calls into question everything we've seen of her through our previous experiences, because we've primarily seen them through Dean's perspective (I'm talking about Samantha Smith's Mary here), and then we find out post-death that she was hunting too, which continues to twist our perception of her, raises all kinds of questions that aren't being addressed, and tarnishes the character further.
We knew she lied to John to varying degrees, but now post-death, we've seen her not only lie to her sons, but put them in danger for her said lies. Remember these are lies she is telling, because she wants to rid the world of monsters for her sons, and yet she was willing to put them and Cas in mortal danger to keep her lie hidden. This casts a shadow once again over what she did in the past, because her lies about hunting and Azazel endangered her entire family (for decades), and she hasn't learned from it yet.
It makes it worse that again post-death we see that she's not at all sorry for lying to her sons. Sure, she comes clean, but then she refuses to admit she has done anything wrong, refuses to understand why her sons don't agree with her choices after she tells them 'it's a better way,' and in fact, takes another crack at Sam on his own when it's clear that Dean won't respond.
To me, the way Mary manipulated Sam into being on her side by lying to him to get him to the bunker 2.0 (thereby separating him from Dean), and saying things she knew Sam might want to hear deep down about having a normal life (She knew he tried to get away by going to Stanford, so she knew it was there), shows how hard-headed and manipulative she is, but not in any kind of endearing way.
As an aside, I think that Sam going to see Mary without telling Dean (If he really thought she was in trouble, he would've told Dean, or I hope he would. Dean's always been his back up), capitulating so easily by the end of The Raid to what Mary wanted by joining the BMoL, lying to Dean most of the next episode until the random GotW guilted him into telling the truth, and then Dean caving (reluctantly) tells me that they're going to have Mary become a wedge between Sam and Dean, because she used Sam to get through to Dean in my opinion, and it worked. She has no reason to think it won't in the future.
Andrew & Co are so keen to present their super duper hunter MOM extraordinaire who stopped off to buy packaged meatloaf on the way home from a hunt she didn't tell anyone about, they don't seem to realize they've totally wiped out what we've always presumed regarding Dean's first 4 years. There actually was no warm loving mother and safe home. She took off. Could've died. Didn't ward the house or mention that monsters could be after her. Left Dean and placed him in danger just like John.
But give me John any day. Him I understand.
I agree give me John.
I could take the not cooking and Dean's memories not being right but the rest without actually addressing it - come on!!
John's existence and the boys childhood was based on a lie and all I've seen her do is have her double down on that behaviour.
The only other parental figures in CW shows that act in similar ways are basically villains, the big bads even - Malcolm Merlyn, Lillian Luthor and even Catherine de'Medici in Reign is seen to love her children but crave power.
"But give me John any day. Him I understand."
Yeah, I think what they've done is somehow make John more sympathetic. Personally, it calls into question those 'fights' John and Mary would have where he would take off for days. Before I thought that a lot of the blame for those went on John, or that's the way they tried to portray it, but now?
yeah with those fights where John left. Previously it seemed like normal marital troubles and yeah he was a stubborn ass so I can see him walking out in a fit. But now am kind of convinced he did so because of he was sick of his wife's unexplained absences and bribery of their child.
Because Dean's love of pie is it because Mary gave it to him when his life was settled. Or is it that he got it after she brought it back when she got back from her trips or when she wanted him to be quiet so he equated pie with getting attention from his mother. Which is two completely different things.
And if it is the latter it is actually kind of scary because it means they've gone into overdrive with regard to the portrayal of mother issues this season. We have had Toni (who puts torture over possibly spending the last moments of creation with her son), Magda's mother (psycho abuser) and Rowena (well at least Crowley can't say he doesn't know where he stands), even Fiona's female teacher. But all in all are women I would say shouldn't be mothers or authority figures for various reasons and that could be problematic in the long run because Mary is going to be tagged up with them. Because like it or not, fair or not even with the years of father issues this show has brought up, women who shouldn't be mothers get a lot more criticism than men who shouldn't be fathers so Mary is going to get crucified more than John in fandom, especially in light of the way they have portrayed her.
The balance on the mother stakes has been seriously lacking because we need to see more like Asa's mother (hard and a drunken lush but you could tell supported and loved her son and will be over bearing and love her grandchildren to death) and Jody. But we've seen them once just once and in the same episode.
"Because Dean's love of pie is it because Mary gave it to him when his life was settled. Or is it that he got it after she brought it back when she got back from her trips or when she wanted him to be quiet so he equated pie with getting attention from his mother. Which is two completely different things."
Um, aside from Dean loving pie, because it's pie, and pie is great, and disregarding the ongoing joke of Sam always forgetting to get Dean his pie or various other things that have come between Dean and pie, I think what DSotM did was indicate that Dean's obsession with pie was bore out of pie being a comfort food, something that reminded him of his Mom, a time when he felt safe and wanted and normal.
It makes the fact that he chooses to call a 'normal life' an 'apple pie life' interesting, because it's also something he's never said in a positive way, mostly a negative, because it's something he had and doesn't think they'll ever have again in any meaningful way.
Then you have how pie has been used this season. When he launched into the pie in episode 12.2, it was right after Mary said she didn't cook (again something that isn't that important. Lots of women don't cook. It's just that in Dean's perception of his childhood, Mary did, but he was wrong, and if he was wrong about that, what else was he wrong about? That had to be what he was thinking on some level). While meant to be something of a joke to lighten the mood, I also thought that in some respects Dean stuffing his face with pie was him trying to cling to his childhood memories, and I think we began to see the cracks when he was sitting by himself, looking at old photos in the kitchen.
Then I think it was a few episodes later (The One You've Been Waiting For, so 2 episodes after Mary left) that Dean wouldn't touch the pie Sam got him. It took killing Hitler for Dean to get his bearings back after Mary left or maybe even just feel something that resembled self worth, and only after that did he suggest going for pie. And then he hid behind killing Hitler for the start of the Asa Fox episode as something of a shield until Jody called him out on it, which is another topic altogether.
Yes but what you described is from Dean's side. My issue is from Mary's. In DSoTM Dean was getting pie when things in the house were unsettled and he knew they were unsettled because he knew John was gone. This is a memory from when Dean was four.
What ever happened was enough to drill what happened into a four year old brain, in more clarity than the actual fire itself cause look at the difference between the memory and his words in Home. I know Heaven was picking things to destabilise Dean but it was clear enough for him to remember Daddy left home and he cuddled mommy after she talked to Daddy on the phone and he got pie.
When she gets them pie at the end of Mama Mia - she is giving food to two sons who have been through hell and discussing the Brits. She's not only comforting them, because like it or not people don't actually need pie, but she's also getting them to open up to her about the situation and be less awkward with her, through the medium of pie.
What I'm trying to ask is did Mary get Dean pie as just par for the course (no issue with) or did Mary get Dean pie when she was trying to comfort him, reward him or quiet him because he wasn't happy. Those are two different reasons to get pie and the latter taints the reason why Dean loves pie. And actually can tie into into your reasoning of Dean not wanting pie as he is questioning things about his mother.
"Yes but what you described is from Dean's side. My issue is from Mary's."
I know, but I didn't want to talk about that. I just wanted to talk about pie. It's been a while since I've had any, and now I can't stop thinking about it. :)
"What I'm trying to ask is did Mary get Dean pie as just par for the course or did Mary get Dean pie when she was trying to comfort him or quiet him because he wasn't happy. Those are two different reasons to get pie and taints the reason why Dean loves pie. And actually can tie into into your reasoning of Dean not wanting pie as he is questioning things about his mother."
Well, considering she offered him pie right after he hugged her, told her that Dad loved her, he loved her, and he would never leave her, I think that she gave him pie for two reasons. One, as something of a reward for saying what she needed to hear (I don't mean that she was being selfish. I just think that she wanted to give him something for being so grown up and caring). Two, as a way to reverse their roles back to normal. Dean, the four year old, wasn't supposed to be the one taking care of her. She was supposed to be taking care of him, and she did that by giving him pie.
No Dean wasn't meant to take care of her and maybe she didn't mean it selfishly but her giving Dean pie tells Dean everything is going to be okay.
With the way they have pushed Mary's story I am getting to the point where I question everything especially in light we saw her still hunting after Dean's birth.
As for pie we can talk about pie. Though would love to see Dean's face if he was ever served a steak and kidney pie as it seems they only ever talk about sweet pies in the show.
What was it Dean said? "No I read "pie" everything else is just blah, blah, blah!"
If you could chart Deans brain it would probably read Sam/Family: 45%. Sex: 40%. Pie: 15%
Or something like that.
;)
Don't say that because you know there is someone going to start questioning if Dean ever combined the pie and sex part.
shareSam and Mary realize the seriously backed the wrong horse so to make it up to Dean they fill the bunker with every kind of pie imaginable. Then they give Dean a year long subscription to the Pie of the Month Club.
shareAlyCat the way that things are being played out right now with the lying about working with the MoL and Sam and Mary wholeheartedly buying into the ends justifying the means from the MoL I don't think pie would cut it. Because I wouldn't be surprised if it takes Ketch and co going torture crazy and kidnapping one of Jodie's girls and threatening her infront of an already tortured Dean for Sam and Mary to see that the horse they backed was wrong.
The way that humans are being painted as the evil ones this season is kind of anvil tastic. Toni, Ketch, Magda's parents, the secret service, the people who worked for Lucifer when he was Rick Springfield, Fiona's teacher. These were not nice people and they don't have the excuse of being actual monsters.
And yeah I know that is me being cynical.
That the Nephilim will be born and as the antichrist Jesse before him he could either become evil or good depending on who is in charge of the controls. My thought is that the Baby Mama Drama Llama - whatever her name is - is killed. Sam and Dean initially want to kill this potentially ultra powerful being but Mary seeing it as a child ends up bonding with him - rather than her own sons, further driving that knife deeper and twisting it - and convinces all that he is innocent and deserves to be given a chance. So, rather than destroy it our Mary agrees to be responsible for raising him - you know, since she the most bestest mother in the whole wide world - and who better to break Sam and Deans hearts all over again? So she and the Nephilim return to Heaven where Mary will have an opportunity to further screw him up- I mean, raise him as her own teaching him love and... blergh. I just threw up in my mouth a little. This would end Mary's storyline and resolve the Big Bad. As far as Lucifer? Who knows. As far as the BMOLs I think whomever Sam and Dean are working with will back their play. The remaining BMOL storyline of the mysterious Old Men will carryover until next season. As far as Toni? Hopefully she will be killed by Lucifer when she sticks her nose too far into the Nephilim business. Maybe she will die trying to save the Baby Mama Drama Llama?
shareBaby Mama Drama Llama?
I now have a worm in my head going round and around. I feel a song lyric coming on. Care to start writing some lyrics AC!