MovieChat Forums > Knowing (2009) Discussion > Religious message

Religious message

posted 12 years ago by mcintyre-15
41 replies | jump to latest

I had real high hopes for this movie. And I was intrigued right up to last 10 minutes. Then I felt ripped off. Never mind that the aliens had wings like angels. That was bad enough. And the tree. Whatever. But, right after Nicholas Cage sends his son off in the space ship and he drives to his parents house and his his sister and parents are there. His Dad who earlier in the film you figure out is religious. And they all hug and wait for the world to end. The Dad says "This is not the end." Nic says I know. Very clear here that whoever wrote this script and made this movie had a very clear message regarding life after death. A very clear religious message. I just wish there had been a warning before I watched that this is clearly a biblical warning to all of mankind. I would have not wasted 2 hours of my life. Also, I read an article written by a scientist regarding this movie. He says that it would be pretty much impossible for a solar flare to destroy the earth like that. Says that by the time a solar flare gets here through the coldness of space there would not be enough heat to set everything on fire. Solar flares hit Earth all the time. That's what makes the Northern lights. And at its worse flares interrupt satellite transmissions. The script writers could have come up with something a little more plausible. Very disappointed.

[–] kitty_cat-3 11 years ago

See I think you may be forgetting an important line of the movie. I very much feel this movie was a constant struggle between is there or isn't there a religion. I can't remember the exact words but the first major indicator was when we see John teaching his class and he says that there are 2 theories. One is that we are all here by random events and coincidences (no religion). The other is that there is purpose and specific meaning to everything (religion). Personally that is what I feel is the beauty of this movie that I don't think the writers ever gave us anything. We see beings at the end that could support both theories. You choose to believe they were aliens then you believe in the random events and there is no religion/God/meaning or if you choose to believe they were angels then you are saying there is a God and a higher purpose.
The scene with his family at the end isn't saying that the angel/religion theory is correct it is just showing peace and ending for this particular character and that John himself chose the religion route. I think the writers made it very ambiguous so we can choose what we feel it was :)

[–] Kouros_jeans 11 years ago

Well said. I don't know why the militant atheists get their panties in a twist....if the were right then nothing would have any meaning anyway, so why complain about a film, lol

[–] bigsierra-2 10 years ago

This comment made watching the movie totally worth it. LOL

[–] mineofilms (37) 5 years ago

Its all about perspective or one of my favorite lines in a Star Wars movie, "Frome a certain point of view."

[–] Elephants_Gerald 10 years ago

What is cool about this movie is that the events could be interpreted both ways by either side. Some see the beings as Angels, that is fine. Some people see them as Aliens, that is fine as well. It's the duality of the argument being expressed in the film. There is no right or wrong. It's all about what you believe and the possibility that both are the same thing.

They who give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety deserve neither. Benjamin Franklin

[–] plasmic_steve 8 years ago

Agreed. I'm an atheist and I thought the balance of both sides was really well made, as was the character's choice. It worked.

[–] carpet_seller 11 years ago

I remember the computer monitor showing the solar system and how the solar flare would burst out from the Sun and fry the Earth. I laughed at the scale of the Sun compared to the Earth. If the Sun was really that big, the Earth wouldn't exist at all.

Here is a scale model of the Solar system so you can see what I am talking about
http://www.phrenopolis.com/perspective/solarsystem/

[–] iancjackson54 10 years ago

carpet,
I have no idea what your talking about and I doubt that you do either.
The size scale on the computer is accurate,and looks the same on the link you
provide. What are you seeing?

[–] xxCUTHBERT_ALLGOODxx 9 years ago

Ya my 12 year old saw that and even busted out the sarcastic... "Whaaat?"

Earth would melt like a marshmallow in a campfire if that crap where to scale.

[–] JimmyCagney 11 years ago

I really wonder if anyone has actually watched this movie carefully...
First of all, his father is not "a religious guy", he's a pastor.
Secondly, when he tells his son that "this is not the end", his son very calmly responds "I know".
How exactly did you figure out that "I know" indicates Cage's conversion to religion? He was a declared and fanatic atheist and this was probably the reason for having not talked to his father.
What "he knows" is that his son along with several other chosen children were saved in order for the human race as well as its civilization to be saved from extinction.
The saviors were not angels, nor Israeli prophets. Just aliens.
So, there is no religious underlying on his answer. As a matter of fact in that last embrace scene he seems to enjoy that eventually, after all these years, he and his father had come to the same conclusion, the one because HE KNEW the truth, the other because he believed.

[–] The_Nose_Knows 11 years ago

You're right. The pastor was wrong about this not being the end. And the pastor was wrong his whole career about Jesus coming back. Jesus never came back to the Mount of Olives. So if any Christians think this fictional movie validates their beliefs it's because they don't think logically. If what John, a PhD with expertise in solar flares, said about the depth the radiation would reach, there would be no survivors. Jesus overslept and missed his chance. So how likely is it that John never thought about the unfulfilled Christian prophecies and simply converted to Christianity? Did the pastor think that a big percentage of the world's population would be killed (wormwood prophecy) and that some would survive and Jesus would come back and fulfill the prophecy? Or did he realize that the prophecies he had preached about his entire career were false and so Jesus must be too? When John acquiesced to his pastor father and simply said "I know" did he mean that he knew his son would survive and in that sense, it wouldn't be over? Did he really believe he and his wife would be with their son in the afterlife? He did tell his son that. He might have told his son the story of Santa Claus too. That doesn't necessarily mean John believed in Santa Claus. Or might John, after many years of alienation from his father, just acquiesced for the sake of peace in the last few minutes of his life?

[–] Dark_Sithlord 11 years ago

Outstanding analysis, and interpretation of the final scene, JimmyCagney.

[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 11 years ago

So Cagney, are you saying Pastor's are not religious?[You're desperately reaching there] Cagney, how exactly did you figure out that Cage is arrogantly accepting his Dad's conversion to atheism? You're a really special kind of atheist, Cagney. The peaceful atmosphere and familial affection at the end indicates that Cage has joined his family, physically as well as spiritually in the knowledge of life life after death. As an atheist, how would you face your own death cheerfully, or with relief, if you hadn't gained the knowledge that you'll ascend? I don't care what you say, I don't believe that a person without God working through them would face their own eternal demise so gracefully(KEY WORD)

Keep on telling yourself there isn't a God! I once was an agnostic... I never went so far as to venomously hate Christianity like you, but I had no clue what was the truth, so there's hope for you, I suppose. The faulty, sinful human in me as well as ALL human beings, isn't going to lose sleep over your fate though, because what you passionately argue is possibly unforgivable, beings that you may influence someone else's soul to the wrong conclusion. That's what I understand is unforgivable "To speak against The Holy Spirit(God), you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever."

When I wasn't a believer, I always tried to be careful that I didn't influence anyone else away from God, because I didn't want to be responsible for that.

[–] nadiahoney 8 years ago

You might be trying say that "pastors are not religious" or I don't understand the first sentence. Sometimes the acting was bad but the film itself was at least a bit original and while I don't like having religious messages shoved at me, I didn't feel this movie did that. I briefly wondered if it was trying to make us all scientologists, but I truly felt it was simply combining the ideas behind religions and philosophies, and letting the audience question (the best movies imo do this, rather than delivering one boring answer on a silver platter.) Rather, it gave various possible ways to look at the world, and one can choose what one wishes to believe in it.

Thought Criminal you sound a bit like the bullying type religious person, although I apologize if you are not like that. I am offended that you think that yo have a right to bully people online to believe in God. I would never do this to someone. In fact you sound too angry and self-righteous to convince me that religion has helped you. How can you tell someone how they should believe, and what they should feel like, and why, when faced with death? Do you think only you have all the answers? Or that you have a right to disparage people's beliefs and feelings? THIS is why people feel persecuted. Please realize that this is how you come across, at least to me. This is not what religion is supposed to be about.

[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 8 years ago

You might be trying say that "pastors are not religious" or I don't understand the first sentence.

No, I'm replying to JimmyCagney there. He's the one who said "pastors are not religious" which of course is ridiculous and offensive.

I truly felt it was simply combining the ideas behind religions and philosophies, and letting the audience question (the best movies imo do this, rather than delivering one boring answer on a silver platter.) Rather, it gave various possible ways to look at the world, and one can choose what one wishes to believe in it.

I don't trust the intelligence of people and there's a strong trend away from Christianity right now. So I see danger in throwing things up in the air and letting people make up their own minds.

Thought Criminal you sound a bit like the bullying type religious person, although I apologize if you are not like that.

It's been a long time since I wrote that reply and I had to quickly remind myself what I said. I'm sorry of I sound like a bully but I don't see it. I was definitely angry at JimmyCagney, though. Read his post that I was replying to and you should then understand why I was angry. He says Cage's dad "is not "a religious guy", he's a pastor." My anger and my words were aimed at JimmyCagney, alone. His post is the arrogant one.

THIS is why people feel persecuted.

Please pay attention to peoples attitudes today and you'll see how persecuted Christians are. American youth today are so smug and say Christianity is for dumb, backward people. They call it a lie, that only the most feeble minded would believe. Wouldn't that make you angry and put you on the defensive, too?

Please realize that this is how you come across, at least to me.

Sorry about that.

This is not what religion is supposed to be about.

You're right, but I don't have the grace to conduct myself most properly when facing arrogant atheism that threatens to turn other people away from God. JimmyCagney was arrogantly drawing conclusions that suited his disbelief. And not just drawing conclusions, but declaring his opinions as absolute, so I was replying in kind.

My Crime Is Prohibited Thought, My Oppressors Are Bleeding Heart Liberals

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Thought Criminal, in your reply to Jimmy Cagney you display the worst aspects of "saved" people. They always sound like teachers scolding their pupils for not keeping up, or rich people sneering at the poor for having scruffy clothes.

Not only that, you completely misunderstood his post.

[–] BillySlater (4241) 5 years ago

Odds you get a reply are slim to none.

[–] JunkyardHounds 11 years ago

im an atheist too and i dont mind about religious messages in movies...how is that any different from aliens, other dimensions and all that crap...to me as far as im concerned im watching a work of fiction. When you watch a movie where some character is talking about how good is to kill or rape or whatever, do you have to agree with him ? NO! so why does characters believing in God and in life after death bother you ?

[–] haxson 11 years ago

I agree. I watched this movie over the weekend and although I'm a convinced atheist I didn't find the religious hints bothersome. It was a disaster movie with sci-fi elements. It made me think of Erich von Däniken and, to some extent, "Childhood's End" by Arthur C. Clarke.

To me, someone who claims to be an atheist and has problems with religion and religious themes in fiction is not really sure of their atheism...

Computers are like air conditioners - they stop working properly if you open windows.

[–] przgzr 11 years ago

"Childhood's End" was the first thing on my mind, Däniken never suggested that aliens knew the future, just that they planned it. Yet Clarke's aliens don't only predict future (more scientifically, more explainable than aliens in "Knowing") but Clarke including something completely new - a term "species memory" where whole species appears as one entity with one mind and each member is influenced by everything this entity ever knew, in past or future - makes them a part of human experience even before they arrived, making it a very unusual and one of the most interesting concepts of aliens' long-term influence on humankind.

And we really can't blame Clarke for advertising religion (knowing his bibliography and even more his attitudes and statements in interviews and articles)...

[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 11 years ago

Because Satan wants atheists to be angry and malicious toward Christianity. JimmyCagney, The_Nose_knows and Dark_Sithlord are all carrying out Satan's wishes perfectly. It's an uncomfortable truth, so I'm sure alot of people will think I'm a fanatical Christian when in reality I've never been to church. But, as you said joao, why do atheists get so bent? They're passion sure runs deep for "The Dark Lord." As Dark_Sithlord is even idolizing, the Star Wars version.

[–] Dark_Sithlord 10 years ago

HahA! Someone with the handle "Infinite Rage" is lecturing me about anger and malice? And the idolatry of a fictional Star Wars character version of satan? Okay.

I am not angry or malicious towards Christ, Christianity, nor Christians. I merely stated JimmyCagney made an insightful point based on the context of the movie which doesn't necessarily mean I agree with him in reality. Do not assume.

Furthermore, I think you are a poor witness to Christ, Infinite Rage, and you come across as a hypocrite.

[–] aaronssolutions 11 years ago

People like you must be miserable. I do not have any religious beliefs. I am an agnostic and find it rather disturbing that there are other wacko birds (did McCain copyright this term yet?) out there who have the nerve, the absolute hubristic blasphemy to believe they got it all figured out. They read a book...that plagiarized from about a dozen other books...was written over 100 years after their "savior" died by people who were not even alive to witness any of what they wrote about, and then that book was taken by the very people who killed their "savior" 100 years prior, and edited beyond comprehension.

Do these people think god just dropped a bunch of bibles into the drawers of hotel rooms across the planet?

I digress.

I am not arrogant enough to believe I could possibly have a clue or even grasp the intellect, or even manner of thinking a being that could create a universe so complex that our little human race will be extinct well before we even figure out 0.000001% of it. Yet, these religious people know. Yep they know, they're sure.

I understand the human race is terrified of the unknown but c'mon.

Despite that, c'mon man. This is a movie. Seriously. If you cannot just suspend disbelief for awhile so you can just relax and watch an entertaining movie, I pity you. I mean, unless you only watch documentaries, I have no idea how you think you can jump from one thing to another. I also say this as a person who hate the organized religions trying to sell you their "certainty and enlightenment and happiness" for just 10% of your annual income...and allow us to brainwash your children as well.

If you can suspend disbelief to watch The Wizard of Oz, or The Dark Knight, or any vampire movie, or horror movie, then why can you not do the same for a movie like this? Is it just because of the religion? If so, that's your deal.

Oh, and there is something people need to take a look at because I have seen the suspension of disbelief term be misused on IMDB more than used correctly. The onus on suspending disbelief is on the VIEWER, not on the person making the movie. Otherwise, almost none of the movies I listed above or any other science fiction movie is capable of being watched.

Chill out, its a movie, and, unlike most of people, AGAIN, on IMDB, if a movie keeps me entertained for 100 minutes, but the last 10 minutes isn't all that great, I don't flip out. I take it for, hey, I was entertained for 100 minutes. That last ten minutes was kinda crap but I enjoyed it for the majority of the time, or 91% of the time, if you will.

If you can't allow yourself to escape into a movie world to enjoy it, you really have absolutely no business even critiquing it because it means you were incapable of putting yourself in a position to enjoy the movie before it even started.

With that being said, eenie-meanie-miney-mo, le plumita de fischa des carta del pluthera y spincartico.

[–] AndWon 11 years ago

She saw the black stone right before she died, I took that to mean she died because she got in the way of letting the kids go up with the aliens/angels. She died because she wasn't going to understand and no matter what the will of God must be achieved. Koestler was just a little more insightful, but if she hadn't taken the kids from him maybe he would have died as well.

[–] straw_hat_boy_luffy 11 years ago

Movies with a religious message need to come with a warning? lol Like movies that hint there is no God do? lol Gosh, why are non-religious people as touchy as many religious people when it comes to being presented with an opposing view?

__
Writing is my favorite hobby. Writing something that many can enjoy is my favorite dream.

[–] TheCinemator 10 years ago

Atheists are the funniest. So unsure of their hopelessness and randomness they need to belittle everyone else :-) Rose Burn was the symbolic atheist in this movie. She had all the evidence all her life, but ignored it. When she dies the kid says "where did she go?" A great question for all atheists!! :-)

[–] koffeenkreame41-1 10 years ago

Atheists are the funniest. So unsure of their hopelessness and randomness they need to belittle everyone else :-) Rose Burn was the symbolic atheist in this movie. She had all the evidence all her life, but ignored it. When she dies the kid says "where did she go?" A great question for all atheists!! :-)

Agreed, great point.

"I am the ultimate badass, you do not wanna `*beep*` wit me!"- Hudson in Aliens.

[–] Akhilleus 10 years ago

How is that a great point?