MovieChat Forums > The Bourne Ultimatum (2007) Discussion > Jason Bourne and Nicky Parsons...

Jason Bourne and Nicky Parsons...

posted 16 years ago by PhilipChandler
79 replies | jump to latest

I admit to having watched this movie several times -- each time, I glean additional plot details and emotional punch. I am struck by the character development that Nicky Parsons undergoes, from her relatively minor role in "The Bourne Identity" (where she was a technician responsible for logistics), to the expansion of her role in "The Bourne Supremacy", and to the much more fully developed role she assumed in "The Bourne Ultimatum".

There are hints in "Ultimatum" that she and Bourne were once more than mere colleagues. When Bourne confronted her at Daniels' office, she "coded in" with an indication that she was not under duress (response "Everest"), despite the fact that Bourne had a gun pointed at her head (he could not tell whether she was indicating duress or normal communicative status). She then answered Noah Vosen with a comment to the effect that she thought that the Bourne case was closed. Then she helped him get away from the scene, using her car. But more specifically, her somewhat cryptic assertion that "It was difficult for me, with you" strongly implied that she and Bourne had once enjoyed an intimate relationship -- if not a sexual relationship, then certainly a warm relationship involving more than mere collegiality...

She then helped Bourne, in direct violation of agency protocol, by diverting the "asset" (Desh) sent to kill Daniels. She must have known at the outset that this would mark her for elimination, yet she did this of her own free will. Far from treating her as a mere agency colleague, Bourne placed himself in great danger in his (successful) effort to save her life. Although Parsons behaved with some restraint, there was genuine warmth underneath this restraint as she bathed Bourne's hands and listened to his soliloquy about the people he had killed. The scene in which she dyed her hair and altered her appearance was extraordinarily similar to the scene in which Marie did the same thing in “Identity”.

Does anybody else think that these two characters may once have been involved?

PHILIP CHANDLER

[–] imajestr 16 years ago

No. There is intimacy and they care for each other, but to propose that they were involved sexually or romantically is ludicrous. The reason the hair dye scene is similar to the first movie is to show how Bourne is still in love with Marie, and he's not going to make the mistake of getting involved with another woman just to see her get killed because of him.

I think you're misinterpreting a POTENTIAL romantic relationship as something that's already occurred.

http://ablueballoon.blogspot.com/

[–] PhilipChandler 16 years ago

With respect, I think that you are being a bit harsh using the term "ludicrous" to describe the possibility that Jason and Nicky may once have been in a relationship. Throughut "Ultimatum", Nicky spends considerable time simply staring at Jason with what appears oe be more than mere collegial affection. The body language of both characters, particularly in the coffee shop and on the ferry, is highly suggestive. Her comment to the effect that "It was difficult for me, with you" can certainly be construed as standing for more than the propositino that she was merely interested in him from a professional standpoint...

I think you have hit the nail on the head, however, with your comment to the effect that a POTENTIAL relationship between these two characters is possible. Jason still labours under what is clearly an almost intolerable burden of guilt as he tells Nicky about the faces of the people he has killed, and about how Marie tried to help him remember their names. Nicky was prepared to die for Jason, who was in turn prepared to die for her. She helped him at Daniels' office, despite the fact that she could easily have betrayed him; she appeared to have made up her mind to help him even before meeting him in "Ultimatum".

I have heard that a fourth Bourne movie will be made, or is in the process of being made. I would be most interested in knowing whether or not Bourne and Nicky both appear in the fourth movie. I am actually ambivalent about the production of another Bourne movie, because I don't know how the main actors and the director can possibly pull off another success of the same scale as "Ultimatum". This trilogy was highly unusual in that each movie was better than its predecessor. Can Damon and Stiles maintain this trend with yet another movie?

PHILIP CHANDLER

[–] orangewarm 14 years ago

apparently (according to Greengrass) the scene where she says "it was difficult for me, with you" was meant to be ambiguous - suggesting something might already have happened between the two.

[–] CountJohn 16 years ago

Stiles should be asked about this in an interview. If there was a backstory, she would have made it up/known about it as to more affectively played the character.

[–] PhilipChandler 16 years ago

Stiles has an absolutely fascinating face, and I cannot get enough of her acting (I saw her play the role of Kathy Thorn in the recent remake of "The Omen"). I am gay -- but were I heterosexual, she (along with Julianne Moore) would be the kind of woman to whom I would be attracted. She has an almost unique quality -- although she does not move her face much, her eyes are fascinating, in that they reflect her mood and convey nuances that lesser actors would only be able to achieve through contortions!

Here's hoping that she co-stars in a fourth Bourne movie -- with the caveat that such a movie only be made if it surpasses "Ultimatum" in quality!

PHILIP CHANDLER

[–] bikebryan 16 years ago

I just don't buy any romance between them. Look at the movies and her attitudes.

In the first movie she seemed to care less about him. She treated him as jus another "asset" with no caring attitute about him in any way.

In the second movie she was scared *beep* of him. He had her hysterically screaming in absolute and total terror.

In the third movie now I'm supposed to believe there was something between them? I don't buy it. Her "It was hard for me with you" statement can be taken lots of ways. Given the other movies it doesn't fit that they were EVER involved in a romantic, or even quick-bang, fashion.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] alltimebest 15 years ago

in the first movie she is trained to do her job and she didn't know what was wrong with him and thought he had just snapped

in the second film imagine they were at one point romantically involved then imagine how you would feel if someone you were close was suddenly gun to your head pissed as *beep*

[–] Iam006 15 years ago

I'd have to agree with bikebryan on this one. In the previous two movies she was terrfied of Bourne. You can look at the end of the first one and she's silent in the last scene and basically has no interaction with him before that. Granted, he's got a gun and threatening her boss in part one but she doesn't speak if I remember right. Not exactly a a sign of a previous lover in any way. Plus, look at part two with the subway scene. Yet another scene where she cowers in terror from Bourne because he's threatening her and could potentially kill her. Again, doesn't seem at all like the interactions between former lovers does it? I think George Nolfi just pulled that Bourne/Nicky thing out of his ass because it honestly makes no sense. And I would think Stiles would have been a little offended by that in that all they could come up with for her to do was be a former Bourne lover because she's one of the few women in the cast. She clearly is on Bourne's side by the third film and her actions could simply have been justified by her being a good human being and her seeing that Bourne wants so hard to be good. That should have been enough justification.

And that cafe scene in #3 could have been handled a lot differently. It could have been Stiles' chance to have the opportunity to say how she was screwed by Treadstone and lied to and mislead and how they have ruined her life and career or something. Then, she and Bourne could have shared a connection and it would have felt more real. It's more realistic to gain an ally rather than have already had one and forgotten completely about it. But that's the problem with being Bourne isn't it?

[–] SoulsDescend 15 years ago

Well to me it would seem that a lack of evidence towards an intimate relationship in any of the previous movies could be simply because the writer's hadn't thought of going that direction at the time. But if it was a concept that they wanted to introduce in the third movie, it could still be a valid one.

I for one would only say that in the next movie I hope they don't follow up on this at all. I like the idea of a past romance that is hinted at but never fully revealed. I constantly wish movies tried to leave things a bit more ambiguous, which I feel is more true to life. There are many people that come and go, things that happen that we don't fully understand how or why, and I really don't like how things in movies always have to be completely dissected with no stone unturned, lest a single moviegoer "not get it".

[–] Jnbfwc 14 years ago

It's interesting, because while I would agree, I would simultaneously disagree!
I don't like leaving things ambiguous, but I don't like things to be explained in intricate detail, either.
This romantic thing-- if they hinted about it a little further in the fourth movie, then we could all be like, "Ooh, it TOTALLY happened!"
And that would be enough for me. But I don't think I'd like for it to just stay exactly this way, where you honestly can't say one way or another.
It's CLEAR that SOMETHING happened, that there was SOMETHING; otherwise she would not have said what she said.
But it could have been anything. That is such a great ambiguity that it may as well not exist.

Now, that said, subtlety is great, but I think building character is important. Movies don't tend to do this enough. Characters are just cogs to get a machine moving. That makes a movie boring.
Fortunately, the Bourne series does not suffer from that.

[–] simon-198 14 years ago

I would hate to think it was just my filthy mind (always a possibility...) but that line is memorable for me because the only sense it made was that Nicky Parsons was engaged in trying to "break" Jason Bourne during his training using sex. The reason "it was difficult" for her was that she either fancied him or saw they he was a good person or whatever. The rest of the training, including killing someone without knowing who they were, supports my theory. And in line with the other theories posted here, there's nothing else either way to prove or disprove it.

[–] gone19 14 years ago

For character progression it makes perfect sense. In the first movie, bourne is an asset and she could care less but she does start to get to know what kind of a person he is.

Then down the road she finds out that when his case is re-opened and they try to kill him they kill his girlfriend. She probably begins to care for him a bit at this point. Then she is kidnapped by him and scared but at the same time he doesn't hurt her. More is found out about his story and she ends up caring even more for him. Possibly Stockholm Syndrome sets in.

By the time the third movie rolls around and she gets involved she cares even more for him as he comes back into her life and she wants to protect a man who she knows to be good by now and is in the middle of a giant agency witch hunt. She will do anything for this man if not completely out of love but out of decent human nature. And it's a good bet she probably is falling in love with him at this point.

It makes perfect sense and it's amazing the writers did this so finely that it's almost hard to pick out without actually trying to think about it a bit. All the pieces are there for the audience to pick out but it may be a bit subtle.

Do I believe they were ever romantically linked or had a relationship that was off the camera? Nope. Do I believe she cares for Bourne after all she has seen of both him as a man and the agency as a potential threat to a good man? Yup. Do I think Bourne is starting to care for her? Yes, and for the same reasons but less pronounced (in typical guy fashion).

[–] werder_bunny 9 years ago

I think you're missing something here:

Paul Greengrass originally wanted to kill Nicky off in the 1st movie, but he was a huge fan of Julia and the character Nicky. With good reason - Julia is phenomenal.
At the time Bourne Identity was written, they hadn't thought about a potential relationship between them, so that's why you can't judge from Nicky's actions in the first movie. Also, she was still involved with the CIA and probably didn't want to risk her life.

Now, Supremacy is already a bit different. Greengrass extended Stiles' role and if you google the original script with all deleted scenes, there is one scene between Nicky and Landy that suggests she was romantically interested in Bourne. And this is how the idea was born.
While Jason is interrogating her down in the subway station in Berlin, she tells him that she believed him and she also told the CIA that he suffered from amnesia. She knows this 100% because he didn't recognize her when they met in Paris and Berlin. Also, she was his last contact in Paris the night Conklin died and put "amnesia" as diagnosis. She could only know this based on Jason's behaviour and not recognizing her as his former love interest throughout the first two movies.

Thirdly, I don't think it could be anymore obvious. Not only did Greengrass pretty much confirm a relationship prior to Bourne's amnesia but also her behaviour does: why would she risk her life and cover him, if she didn't have a very good reason? She knows what the consequences would be. The scenes at the cafe and on the ferry and the scene after the rooftop chase are very telling too. She tries to get closer to him, but he doesn't reciprocate anything. She risks her life for him and helps him. If she was merely a colleague she wouldn't do this.

[–] clark_gillies 9 years ago

Find that highly unlikely................. Greengrass had nothing to do with Identity, so I can not see how he "originally wanted to kill Nicky off in the 1st movie", when he was not even involved in the Bourne project for another 2/3 years.

Which original script for Supremacy? Tony Gilroys one? If so this script was shredded up before the camera's started rolling, and really only starts to resemble the movie from the Hotel Brekker scene.... take it with a pinch of salt as the first 1/3 of the movie is Bourne in a Indian jail after beating up a Indian policemen when Marie is killed in a car accident.... and after Berlin the move takes place in the Soviet Union (in 2004.............).

If its Brian Helgeland script that was used, which was finished just a few hours before filming started, I do not think there is anything in it about Bourne and Nicky (plus their scene in the Berlin metro was actually written on the spot).

[–] stevelatinner 14 years ago

No. There is intimacy and they care for each other, but to propose that they were involved sexually or romantically is ludicrous.

I think you're misinterpreting a POTENTIAL romantic relationship as something that's already occurred.

I concur with this post. They had no prior relationship. 1, the acting in the previous movies contradicts the idea. 2, the CIA would be well aware of her personal association with Bourne which rules out putting her in the team.

I think, as professionals, they had an attraction that was never realized. Through the progression of events Nicky came to understand what was really going on and couldn't be part of it any longer. Her mind and her heart told her to help Bourne. The potential of a romantic relationship came up but Bourne wasn't going to let the same mistake happen twice, so with some disappointment and disillusionment she had to part company.

[–] flett 9 years ago

I think the reuse of the hair dying scenario was the result of lazy writers. How many times did they reuse "Look what they make us give", at least twice; how many times did they reuse "Do you even know why you're supposed to kill me", at least twice. You'd think that after Bourne asked these questions the first time, he'd have figured it out (or the writers would have.)

[–] prevost-2 16 years ago

I just watched the series for the second time through and I feel the same way you do. I think a previous intimacy is implied or at least hinted at in all their interactions of the final movie. He doesn't remember, but judging by the way she keeps eye contact with him and her body language in his presence she surely has had some history with him. I don't think it's ludicrous at all. In fact I think all the cues point that way. So, to simply answer your question, I think, yes indeed, the two characters were involved before Jason had been reprogrammed. Throughout the movie Jason never looks like he has remembered but when he says "I remember everything" near the very end of the last movie maybe he has remembered Nicky as well.

[–] williams-59 16 years ago

I agree with bikebryan and imajestr. I think you all are reading too much into Nicky's words and movements. I do not know the exact line, something like: "It was difficult for me with you", whatever she said. I think that she may have had some feelings for him, but there was never any type of relationship between them. I think she had a hard time watching the Agency program Bourne and it was hard for her to do her part in that programming. She knew what he would become and she probably had feelings for him. She may have been attracted to him. Tell me at what point in his programming and training would Jason and Nicky have any time together. Such a relationship would clearly be against Agency rules. It's possible that from the first day Jason agreed to join the program he never saw Nicky, unless he had to see here for some mental chech up. I think she said that she monitored their mental state.

[–] prevost-2 16 years ago

Yeah, you've got a point about when they could have gotten together. It seems that she was in the agency already when they brought him in for training. She must not have known him before or that would surely have disqualified him as a candidate (since he had to abandon his previous self). She does call him Bourne and not Webb. If she has developed feelings they must have happened during the training but she does sure does seem to be fascinated by him.

[–] bikebryan 16 years ago

I never thought for one moment they were ever involved other than in their work environment. The "It was hard for me with you" line can be read so many different ways. For example:

We know he resisted the program during training. It seems likely that he found out what was expected of him and had second thoughts, but they would not let hime back out. As such it probably took more to keep him under wraps and under control. That was one of Nicky's jobs with Treadstone: to monitor their pyschological health.

So I read that she had a harder time with him in that regards than with the others. She was also either sad or glad (hard to say which) that he did not remember any of it.

If you want to be a 'shipper, more power to you. I just don't see her going from indifferent, to terrified, to in love. It just doesn't track.

[–] williams-59 16 years ago

Thanks bikebryan, I couldn't remember the exact line. I think that was the case.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] bikebryan 16 years ago

To each their own.

We see Nikki go from complete clinical indifference to Bourne in the first movie, treating him as just another treadstone asset, to be scared whitless and in hysterical screaming terror of him in the second movie, to being in love with him in the third movie? Please.

This is nothing but a copout sellout to the fans. To say they had a pre-Treadstone romance just makes no sense and they certainly would not let them work in the same project.

If you want it great. However, if that is the route they take another installment I for one don't care to see it.

[–] williams-59 16 years ago

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I agree with you, I just don't see it. A pre-Treadstone romamce? When and where? Before the Agency, Bourne was in the Armay. Nicky was already working for the Agency. Nicky probably never saw Jason until his traning and programming began. And I would imagine that trainees and operations personnel do not go out for drinks after work. I could hear it now: Nicky: "Jason, you've had a hard day being programmed. What say, you and I go have some drinks later on. Oh, don't worry about it, we do this all the time around here." Yea, right.

[–] PhilipChandler 16 years ago

"I just don't see her going from indifferent, to terrified, to in love. It just doesn't track."

Respectfully, I disagree with you. It is entirely possible for a person to be terrified of somebody with whom that person is in love (or was in love). Remember that, for all intents and purposes, Jason Bourne was NOT the same man that Nicky had worked with when David Webb was in training. She was terrified in "Supremacy" -- but regardless of how much I loved somebody, if that person dragged me into a small enclosure, pointed a gun to my head, told me that he was going to kill me, and had completely lost his memories of who I once was to him -- then I would be terrified too.

Her indifference in "Identity" may well have been forced onto the viewer by time constraints and the fact that the plot called for Jason to fall in love with Marie.

What makes this trilogy so good is the fact that the viewer has to THINK, and really think HARD, about issues such as love, redemption, the importance of memory as a component of identity, and the morality of letting a person live with a false memory. (At the end of "Supremacy", Jason sought out the daughter of the Russian couple he had killed, and told her the truth -- that her mother had NOT killed her father and then committed suicide. Was this the "right" thing to do? I think so, but others may differ.).

Many lines in this movie are open to interpretation and may have more than one possible meaning (the defining example is "Look at what they make you give..."). This makes it possible for the screenwriter to craft a fascinating series of movies.

"It gets easier" may well be such a line...

PHILIP CHANDLER

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[–] alltimebest 15 years ago

i think your implying that she knew him before he became involved in treadstone/blackbriar in the second film she didnt even know about his first job in berlin yet she was involved in the organization

[–] Ilario1 15 years ago

The first job in Berlin was not part of an "official" mission. It was Conklin and Brian Cox's character doing something for their own gain.

[–] RARanieri 14 years ago

In one of the movies, didn't somebody state that Webb/Bourne was the first recruit into the Treadstone training program? If so, then Nicky's comment about, "It was difficult for me, with you", could mean nothing more than that she was troubled by the assassin training procedure and whatever part she played in it.

Yes, in the third movie, Nicky helps Bourne while knowing her actions will cause the end of the life she once had. I think there certainly is a strong bond between Jason and Nicky in the third movie, but I don't think they had any more than an professional relationship before that.

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Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. - Mark Twain.

[–] martensjesse 16 years ago

I've got to say that I had the exact same thought when I saw the movie, I actually re watched it just to check if there were more hints to a prior "relation", and I heard suspicions bout newer movies bout Bourne, and also a prequel so I think we'll all see.

[–] mdemirci 16 years ago

I won't go so far as calling anyone an idiot, but I definitely think some sort of romance was more than implied, even if it was only one-way, meaning Nicky might have been in love with Jason without him knowing. Nobody mentioned the scene where Nicky is leaving and Jason says "It gets easier" to her. What does he mean? There's no doubt he was referring to her earlier words about how it was difficult for her with him. He means having to be apart from the person you love gets easier as time passes. He experienced this with Marie, and it's his consolation to her. He probably does not remember anything about her other than what we saw in the three films.

[–] williams-59 16 years ago

"It gets easier". In my opinion, I think he was trying to tell her the hiding and running gets easier with time. That's just my opinion.

[–] bikebryan 16 years ago

Exactly what I was thinking...he was telling her this AS she was starting life on the run. Too coincidental to think it meant anything other than life on the run gets easier as you do it longer.

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[–] wagross 16 years ago

It was difficult... for me... with you. You... really don't remember, do you?

That´s for distraction. Because the audience might expect that Bourne´s life will take a happy turn in the fourth (and last) sequel. That could happen.

But the meaning of Nicky´s statement is different. She wants to test whether he really remembers everything. As long as Bourne is unsecure about his memory he would strongly react to this statement. Given his relationship to Marie he would ask Nicky what her statement means. He doesn´t react. He seems to be sure that there was nothing between them. Prove that his memory is back.

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[–] StrayCat1000 16 years ago

by PhilipChandler - "Does anybody else think that these two characters may once have been involved?"

Yes - to some extent whether it be professional or other. This is emphatically implied when Nicky says "you really don't remember anything...(?)".

" I have heard that a fourth Bourne movie will be made, or is in the process of being made. (...) Can Damon and Stiles maintain this trend with yet another movie? "

It's in the works. I for one will be very disappointed however if Matt Damon rejects the role of David Webb aka Jason Bourne.

[–] Ilario1 16 years ago

Matt Damon has already signed on. Damon, the director and the writer are all on board.

[–] kennonmark 16 years ago

I thought the way that Nicky asked Bourne whether he really didn't remember showed that they had had some kind of intimate relationship, perhaps only temporary and almost certainly suppressed by both of them by the difficulty of them having to work together. She seems indifferent in the first film only because she is always in the company of other officials when discussing Bourne. She would certainly not want to give anyone the impression of being involved with him on any more than a professional basis. She is scared of him in the second film because she realizes he doesn't know her. She may have thought he asked for her to meet with him because he remembered that he could trust her. When she saw how different he was from the way he remembered her, she would have become very frightened. Also, remember her line that it would be scary to think he was now taking directives from himself alone. When he lets her live, she concludes he is still the same person she cared about, leading her to trust him and go out of her way to help him in the third film. I assume they had a brief tryst, probably brought on by a scary episode they had shared, much the way Bourne and Marie had their first encounter. I see nothing in the series that would make that implausible, and much evidence that it probably did occur.

[–] bikebryan 16 years ago

And what would that evidence be, pray tell? I see NONE. Please, enlighten me.

[–] williams-59 16 years ago

Agreed, bikebryan. When they tell you, please tell me. Because I cannot see it. He does not kill her because he has no reason to. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only people we see Jason actually kill is the asset in "Identity" and Desh in "Ultimatum". It is no way possible that the Agency would have allowed any contact between Nikki and Jason, other than professional. They could not have gotten away with it covertly, either.

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[–] williams-59 16 years ago

In Germany? Oh yes. You mean the other remaining Treadstone guy. I had forgotten him.

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[–] williams-59 16 years ago

Thanks for refreshing my memory.

[–] RARanieri 14 years ago

<<< Correct me if I am wrong, but the only people we see Jason actually kill is the asset in "Identity" and Desh in "Ultimatum". >>>

You need to watch the movies again. Bourne kills more than only two people in the three movies. What about the SWAT team rushing into the house when Bourne blows it up by using a magazine in a toaster to ignite a gas line? You don't think any of the SWAT team were killed by the fiery blast?

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Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. - Mark Twain.

[–] Jnbfwc 14 years ago

It's amusing how the original poster and a few others are calmly, rationally and conversationally discussing the "hints" in the movie that may point to a previous relationship between the two, and all of the nay-sayers are adamantly, with GREAT EMOTION, objecting to this irrational, CRAZY notion!

Original poster: So this is why I think that--

Someone who disagrees: FOOL! Stop with this inane line of thought! You'll KEEL US AAALLL!!

Original poster: But I'm just saying--

Someone who disagrees (while jumping up and down): NOoooOOOoooOOO!

[–] pozzible 15 years ago

yes, they were invovled, she's hot, he's the hero, this is a hollywood movie, that is how it works, it is just a cliche

[–] mmciv 15 years ago

I think that what they are trying to imply in Ultimatum with all those annoying close-ups of Nicky looking dumb is that they had a history, yes.

[–] shannonsistrunk 15 years ago

I think she knew he lost his memory...he wasn't the same person she "knew" back whenever.

I am watching the last Bourne and I def. think there was something there before. :)

[–] impressme 15 years ago

There's absolutely NO WAY she knew him as David Webb...

[–] tmf_scipio 15 years ago

There definitely was an implied previous relationship between the two of them, either intimate or not. At least that's what I got... It could have been something as simple as her having a crush on him... seeing him in the office... getting him some coffee before he went out and killed someone... stuff like that.

"Whenever Mrs. Kissell breaks wind, we beat the dog."