MovieChat Forums > The Bourne Ultimatum (2007) Discussion > It Was Different With You...

It Was Different With You...

posted 11 years ago by ncrawford82
35 replies | jump to latest

Bourne: Why are you helping me?

Nikki: It was different with you. Don't you remember?

Bourne: No.

Nikki: You snatched me out of a crowded area, brought me into a subway tunnel and repeatedly threatened to kill me. Then you pulled me into a secluded room and dry clicked a pistol against my skull while I begged for my life. Then I see you again not more than a few days later standing there gun pointed at me and what the hell was I supposed to think, that you were there to deliver flowers?

Bourne: Oh, right. Sorry about that.

**************************************************************************

Joking aside, I loved the movie, but the romance angle is an arrow in the heel of an otherwise perfect trilogy. I don't care what Greengrass said in the commentary, the supposed romance between Nikki and Bourne was shoehorned in and all can ask is why?

It's hard to work out the timeline between Supremacy and Ultimatum, but lets assume that Bourne telling whatshisface that Marie is dead occurred well before he ran into Nikki again. I could be wrong, but that scene could have also taken place after he told Abbott, "She wouldn't want to. That's why you're still alive."

So now we have Bourne on a path of redemption, spurred by the memory of the woman he loves. He encounters Nikki shortly after the events in the hotel and suddenly he remembers how he threatened her but only after Nikki lied to the CIA to help him.

Maybe instead of this, "It was different with you," crap, she could just come right out and say, "Part of me was afraid of what you would do if I didn't help. But at the same time I felt awful about what we took from you and how I was a part of that."

Instead of a shoehorned romance, you have Bourne apologizing to Nikki and wishing he could take back those events.

I just think there could have been a lot more weight to the scene. Nikki's romance was so minute that you could have replaced it with anything and either you wouldn't have lost anything integral to the plot, or you could have had something ten times more meaningful to the plot and made it an even better movie than before.

Feel free to disagree, of course.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] clark_gillies 11 years ago

Its a clue to his past, but it is never explaned was it a mutual feeling or was it just one way.....

Was Niki really talking about pre-Identity events? To me the events in Supremacy she fell for Bourne the same way Marie fell for him.... they felt so sorry for him as he was alone and vulnerable....

Maybe it was a mutual relationship? We have no clue to what Bourne was like before the lost his memory, so maybe they were a item, but Bourne remembers nothing and after what happened to Marie months earlier, he did not want to drag another love interest into his world?

Was it maybe just her? In Identity, Nicki is what? 19/20-ish? and Bourne is 31-ish? Is a multi-million dollar machine who has had his mind broken and then reset going to be really interested in this teenage office girl who is hanging around the place? Was there really any room for a relationship? Look at Bournes passport when he flips through it in Zurich? Pages are covered stamps, so he is on the move a bit! I do my fair share of traveling and I am nowhere near getting my passport stamped on the same level.

Suppose its left to the viewer to think "it was hard for me" and its meaning.... was it 1) hard for Nicki to trust and follow Bourne after seeing what happened to Marie..... 2) Was it hard for her because he is no longer the Bourne she remembers and end of the day they both had a professional nature to keep..... or 3) Was it hard for her having these feelings for Jason and nothing in return?

For what its worth I do not like it and feel that it was shoehorned into the movie..........

[–] grahambosch 11 years ago

Nicky was a sort of liaison for the agents in treadstone (no way she's 19-20), and I interpreted that comment as she and bourne had some sort of friendship or possibly romantic relationship but that he didn't remember it after his memory was erased. So he fell in love with Marie and that may have changed Nicky's feelings for him or whatever it was. But I don't think it had anything to do with the way he acted toward her during the events of the movies - I have always gotten the impression when watching that she's scared of the situation more than bourne himself (she's not a field agent) but knows that he's doing what he's doing out of necessity. Despite him threatening her she still wants to help him because he doesn't have anyone else and his own government, the one that made him who he is, is after him.

[–] clark_gillies 11 years ago

In Supremacy there is a brief shot of her file and it gives her date of birth as being in the early-mid 1980's, making her 20-ish in Idnetity.

Granted, she looks A LOT older in Identity than she did in Supremacy (also her cover is that of a student, so she is going to be in her early 20's).

[–] werder_bunny 8 years ago

Her file says she was born on March 28th, 1979, so she would have been in her early 20s, yes. However, you're correct, as Julia Stiles was born in 1981, she was 20ish at that time.

[–] ncrawford82 11 years ago

Are you talking about Abbott?

Nope. There was a younger man in the beginning of the movie who was either Nikki's brother or some other relation. I only know it wasn't the same brother with the kids from Identity. Bourne told him she was dead and said he was going after the people who were responsible.

The stories of an underappreciated retail employee.
http://cartjockeyconfessions.wordpress.com/

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

There was a younger man in the beginning of the movie who was either Nikki's brother or some other relation. I only know it wasn't the same brother with the kids from Identity. Bourne told him she was dead and said he was going after the people who were responsible.

The younger man would be Marie's brother Martin Kreutz (Daniel Brühl) whereas the guy with the kids from Identity was Eamon, a friend of Marie's (Tim Dutton).

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

No, Martin was the (half-)brother. Eamon was a friend, maybe former love interest.

For example:
http://www.toddalcott.com/favorite-screenplays-the-bourne-identity-par t-7.html

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

Your source of information is Wikipedia?

Found you some more links:

http://www.moviestack.com/posts/94659-who-was-eamon-to-marie

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/67044/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_Eamon_in_the_Bourne_Identity?#slide=1

http://www.toddalcott.com/favorite-screenplays-the-bourne-identity-par t-7.html

http://bourne.wikia.com/wiki/The_Bourne_Identity_%28film%29

They mention the grandmother and a step/ half brother. Then they show five pins on the map, locations Marie lived during the last years. Conclin says his guys should do everything they can to find her by observing, tapping, etc of these five places.
Nobody says Eamon is Marie's brother, ever. Watch again.

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

We agree to disagree then, that's ok.

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

We still have to agree to disagree. The CIA mentions a half brother (another time they call him step brother) and a grandmother. They show us the pins and tell us this are the places she stayed the last years for some time. Nothing specific about the places.

Tell me why Marie is a gypsy with no money whereas the alleged brother had always money and would never sell the house (Marie's words, not mine)? Wouldn't he help his sister? Because we see in Ultimatum, Martin - the only brother in my eyes - was very concerned about her.

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

CIA mentions one brother. I believe it's Martin Kreutz who even shares the surname with Marie and calls her his sister.

No mentioning of a second brother.

Eamon was a pin on the board or the professor wouldn't have shown up.

Bourne tells only Martin about Marie because he's the only brother.

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

For me the one thing that counts is the statement by the CIA that she has a granny and one brother. When we see Martin Kreutz it's clear he's the one.

You don't think CIA would know if there were two brothers?

I guess we have to agree to disagree

Apparently.

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] clark_gillies 11 years ago

Eamon is not the half brother.

It is just a poorly timed slip in the script that makes everyone think that.

IIRC just right before we get to the farm scene Conklin has a line about "how are we doing on the tap on granny and the brother?", and then the next scene we get to the farm where Eamon shows up.

It is very easy to understand why people would think he is Maries brother..... after all, he gets 3 or 4 mentions in Identity, but its using the same logic that would make the old woman sweeping the streets in Supremacy the grandmother, as she is the only old woman to have a line in the movie.......

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] clark_gillies 11 years ago

Technically there is....... on the wall there is a map with pins on it off all the places that Marie has been living.

There is a number of different pins on this map and as the camera pans down, we fade in to Marie and Jason on their way to this point.

Later on back with Conklin he is frustrated at the fact they have lost them and goes off into a rank about they "can not fly and trains are to dangerous, so where do they go?" and he walks across to the map and points to this pin and says there..... next we see the professor getting his orders from Niki, which we learn later is to head to this point.

As I said, it is easy to understand why folk think Eamon is the brother, but its just the final poorly placed mention of teh brother right before Eamon makes his appearance that we get the idea that he is the brother.

Also take into account their body language, though not said, my feeling is Marie and Eamon had an affair at some points.... Eamons first words when asked by his child where is mummy is "Mummy is not here..... ~mumble~ thank God! ~mumble~"..... that implies that if his wife was there, she would not take kindly to Marie being there.... also the kids do not exactly go running screaming "Auntie Marie!!!".

Also their whole time together, any scene with Eamon and Marie there is a restless between them.... questions like "does he treat you well" and responses like "you know me...." (almost hinting Eamon knows that Marie makes wrong choices or goes for).

Personally at first watch I thought he was the brother as well, but after a few more watches I came to the conclusion he is not.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] clark_gillies 11 years ago

Maybe the CIA are just not that privy into things? All they know is she stayed there for a while.... they do not know if she was sleeping with the guy who owned the place.

It is the same in Ultimatum (and the very reason behind this thread), we are left to make assumptions about what is happening.

We know they are not related (that is clear, if you chose to think it or not), the is married and glad his wife is not there to see Marie show up, while all the time is uneasy about her, and yet when they do get time alone together away from the kids and Jason, they do start talking (though not saying anything direct, but all the time indicating that they both have history together and want to keep it in the past)

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Ice-Walker 11 years ago

As someone who watched the Bourne trilogy over a 50 times, I can answer: the CIA was able to track Eamon only because Conklin wanted to know what's going on at his house(all pins) and Marie called from a public phone on the way from Paris. Definitely not because he was a brother/half-brother

Remember Bourne asking, "how many times did you let it ring?"?

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Ice-Walker 11 years ago

They clearly say the payphone is on the way from Paris and the destination is within driving distance.

[–] ncrawford82 10 years ago

Before we put this debate to rest for good (it was a good debate)

Really? Cause the topic of the "debate" was whether or not Nikki's supposed romance with Bourne was forced and you two hijacked it by discussing a character that wasn't effing relevant to the original topic.

The stories of an underappreciated retail employee.
http://cartjockeyconfessions.wordpress.com

[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

So you think they should tell us who Eamon really is - if he's not the brother - but it would be ok to mention only one brother despite there are two? Lazy CIA couldn't figure it out?

As I said, to me it's no question Eamon is a friend whereas Martin is her brother. Oh and BTW, Martin and Marie are clearly German whereas Eamon is obviously British. Care to explain that?

It's OK if you still believe Eamon to be the (second?) brother but I don't and never did. *shrugs*

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

Conclin mentions her grandmother and her step brother, no one-else. Why? Why would he leave out another brother? He never tells us where they live. On the other hand the guy with the pins tells us they assume Marie lived at those five places at some time for a while. They don't say the brother is at one of those places.

I don't think Conclin knows they will show up at Eamon's place. Didn't they send all of those assassins? They covered every location she could go to.

If you want to believe Eamon is her brother, fine. I don't.

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Lucy9596 11 years ago

we put this debate to rest for good (it was a good debate [] )

Will Graham: I don't find you that interesting.
Hannibal Lecter: You will.