MovieChat Forums > Doctor Who (2006) Discussion > why I don't like a female doctor.

why I don't like a female doctor.


The idea that gender is unimportant and irrelevant .As if changing a characters gender was as simple as changing their clothes.

A persons gender,male female,other or however you choose to define yourself,is a huge chunk of an individual's identity.Gender greatly defines who we are as people and how we relate to the world.Men and women should be treated as equals yes but men and women are not the same.

It's one thing to change the Doctors face,mannerisms and race even.Because a guy relate to another guy.But changing his gender and calling it the same character feels ridiculous. by changing the doctors gender IMO thier taking a huge chunk of the doctors identity and chucking it into the gutter essentially creating an entirely new character.

As a fan I'll continue to watch and I'm sure this Jodie Whittaker will be entertaining enough.But although she may be a Doctor I will never think of her as the Doctor.

reply

I don't know, when Judy Dench became M in James Bond after the 5 different male M's before her (6 all up when a male replaced her), people said similar things and it worked out really well, it added something fresh to the films as I believe this will to Doctor Who.

reply

She was playing a different character. Completely different.

reply

No it was the same character - "M". The same way that all the Bond actors play the same character.

reply

Wrong. Bond even referred to her "predecessor" in Judi Dench's first scene in Golden Eye (telling her where he kept the cognac in her office; she replies by saying she prefers bourbon), and she called him a "dinosaur". They discuss him not liking her methods and their conversation makes it clear she's new.

There's even a portrait of the original "M" (played by Bernard Lee) hanging on the wall in 1999's The World is Not Enough. The second "M" was Admiral Hargreaves (played by Robert Brown) who had previously appeared in 1977's The Spy Who Loved Me and had since been promoted to replace the former guy.

The last Bond film in the classic series was 2002's Die Another Day. The Daniel Craig ones were a complete reboot operating in a different universe, so Dench wasn't even really playing the same character she had in the past few movies, lol.

reply

The M's in Bond are all 007's boss, doesn't matter even if the M changes it's still 007's boss and they did a retcon of the M character from the original Casino Royale novel by making M female when it was a male in that.

Plus in Fleming's third Bond novel (Moonraker), he establishes M's initials as M**** M******* and his first name is subsequently revealed to be Miles. In the final novel of the series, The Man with the Golden Gun, M's full identity is revealed as Vice Admiral Sir Miles Messervy KCMG; Messervy had been appointed to head of MI6 after his predecessor had been assassinated at his desk.

Again similar arguments were made against Dench, M has always been a male, M was a male in all the books, this is just PC pandering, I won't watch Bond again etc., etc., etc.

reply

No, "M" is a title and of course it matters if it's a position rather than the same character. The different "M" actors played different characters filling that job as I laid out in my reply above. They explicitly talked about the differences between her and her "predecessor" in Golden Eye, and showed a portrait of the original "M" hanging on the wall in 1999's The World Is Not Enough. The Daniel Craig movies are a complete reboot and a different universe than the original series (which ran from 1962-2002), so no retconning required. Dench technically wasn't even playing the same character she had as the third "M" in the last few classic series movies, or at least the timeline was understood to be completely different as it was for Bond.

I don't recall anyone complaining or making these arguments about a woman becoming the new "M", but either way this is a completely different situation so you're spouting a weak straw man argument. That's without getting into the absurdity of comparing a supporting character who's only in a few scattered scenes to a well established primary character who's been around for over half a century.

reply

But M is M, not James Bond.

reply

That too.

reply

Some one say something about M&Ms?

reply

Almost Halloween.

reply

Two actually.
Bernard Lee (1962–1979) & Robert Brown (1983–1989)

reply

+
Ralph Feinnes (2012 - )
John Huston (1967)
David Niven (1967)
Edward Fox (1983)

That adds up to 6 (six).

reply

Ralph Finnes didn't become M until AFTER Judi Dench left the role, and Huston & Niven were "M" in a PARODY of James Bond. Fox was M in an unofficial James Bond movie not authorized by MGM. For all intents and purposes, there were only two M's before Judi Dench took the role. That's pretty different than having 13 male Doctors before casting a female one.

reply

Only for the sake of your complaint does it mean that.

reply

Wow I didn't even notice as golden eye was my first exposure to james bond.

reply

horrorfan:
In other words, it's fine if a woman has a part in the Whoverse, as long as she's just the sidekick, or the villain, and not actually the main leading role as the Doctor? Oh,please. The Doctor's a fictional character--an alien. Meaning he or she can morph into whatever the hell he or she wants to be. And he became an entirely new character every time he was played by a new actor, so some of what you say about the changes of the character dosen't even hold up. Enough with the sexist BS already,please. He's now a she--deal with it.

reply

In other words, it's fine if a woman has a part in the Whoverse, as long as she's just the sidekick, the villain, and not actually the main leading role as the Doctor?

You mean like the guys in Wonder Woman? Or the Sarah Jane Chronicles? Or Buffy? Or Xena? Or Alias? Or any show featuring a woman lead? Wonder Woman has been female since the character's creation in the 1940s, longer than Doctor Who has been around. By your "logic" unless you support her suddenly becoming a man you're "sexist".

reply

Are those shows used as a platform to minimize men? Not the last time I checked.

Why is that a show that hadn't cast a woman as the main character but, thanks to the nature of the character, can and has been cast with a female actor is presumed to be for the purpose of minimising men?

reply

kr97a:

That is not even what I said---don't twist my words around to make them mean something I didn't even say. I'm talking about Dr. Who specifically, and nothing else. Y'all seem to think that the character couldn't possibly be a female because he's always been a man, and that the role being taken over by a woman somehow diminishes it, which is some BS, frankly. How hard is that to understand? It's not. Y'all just hate the idea of a women taking over what's been a traditional male role for over 50 years. Also, Dr. Who is a fictional character, so he/she can be anything he/she wants. Heck, I'd like to see a black or Anglo-Indian Doctor Who in the future too,now that I think about it. That would be even cooler,lol.

reply

It's called taking your insipid logic to its conclusion to illustrate its flaws. And even in this New Who crap show the Doctor isn't a woman. They've turned him into a sex fluid freak. No real female empowerment there. The whole thing is myopic and stupid for reasons spelled out all over this thread and board. Most female Who fans I know prefer the real, male Doctor Who, just as men prefer Wonder Woman stay female.

reply

"Most female Who fans I know prefer the real, male Doctor Who, just as men prefer Wonder Woman stay female. "
In all fairness though being a woman is Wonder Woman's primary feature. She/he whatever would have to change their title and costume otherwise its just Wonder Drag at that point.

reply

Or Buffy, or Xena, or Scully, or really any established female character, star or supporting. People have been mentioning Wonder Woman in this discussion because she just had a big movie come out, but I do think the Wonder Woman example helps more explicitly drive home the importance of gender to personal identity. Though his name isn't "Doctor Man", the Doctor is very male and in some ways has been viewed over the decades as a male archetype. In fact he's needed female companions around him as a complement to help soften his edges some.

reply

"In fact he's needed female companions around him as a complement to help soften his edges some. "
Yes they humanize him.

reply

"How hard is that to understand? It's not. Y'all just hate the idea of a women taking over what's been a traditional male role for over 50 years."

Because most of us see this new female doctor who as being a contrived consequence of the political climate we live in today.

"Heck, I'd like to see a black or Anglo-Indian Doctor Who in the future too,now that I think about it. That would be even cooler,lol. "
Exactly. Its not about the show for you anymore its about a political agenda.

reply

What is it about the stuff that the Doctor character does that requires it to be a male alien of over thousands of years old in order for you to relate to it?

Saying that gender matters to you but a change in personality, manners etc are ok is actually an extremely sexist thing to say. Think about it for one second.

reply

So you think transgendered people are "sexist", since they insist that sexual identity is so important to them (e.g. being a man trapped inside a woman's body or vice versa) that they go to extraordinary surgical and chemical lengths to try and make their bodies fit what they believe they truly are. Got it.

The Doctor isn't a woman trapped inside a man's body. Being a man is a core part of his identity.


reply

Are you mental? The name of the thread is "why I don't like a female doctor" not "why I don't want to be a female/male".

I'm asking the OP how the gender of the tv character is more important to them in relating to what they do than their personality, mannerisms, kindness, courage etc.

Your own gender and sexual identity is important to you, obviously. But the show has already set up that Timelords (who are not "men" or "women" but consciousnesses that walk in eternity) do not place the same importance on their gender. In the same way that they don't perceive time the same way that we humans do.


Try reading what the OP is complaining about and the replies first before making glib complaints.



reply

"I'm asking the OP how the gender of the tv character is more important to them in relating to what they do than their personality, mannerisms, kindness, courage etc."

Mannerisms or personality traits are relatively not very important because much like the idea of regeneration as people we are always changing and evolving.I don't have the same personality traits or like the same things I did 10 years ago.That doesn't mean I'm a different person.I've just grown and learned as a person.

Gender on the other hand is a core part of a person's self.If I woke up tomorrow as a woman I would be completely lost.My views on the world and how the world perceives me would have dramatically shifted.in other words I would be a completely different person.

You can't change the Doctors gender and say it's the same person.Because men and women are not the same or interchangeable.



reply


<< If I woke up tomorrow as a woman I would be completely lost. My views on the world and how the world perceives me would have dramatically shifted. in other words I would be a completely different person. >>

Why would you be completely different, inside, and lost if you woke up in a female body? You'd be in the same bed in the same house, with the same family and inner history. You could even put on clothes from your old closet. Having estrogen in your system instead of testosterone might effect your moods, but it wouldn't act like a kind of shock treatment and erase everything that came before. You'd still be you, though leading a different life.

If I were going to be "regenerated" through many incarnations, I'd want to spend at least one of them as the opposite sex. It would be an amazing opportunity to experience life more fully.
.

reply

Again. Read the question

Why is the gender of the person doing the things that the Doctor does in the show more important to you that the personality and manners etc of that person?

It's not your self that's on screen. It's the doctor.

The Doctor is an alien. A Timelord with a totally different perception of time than human beings. That's a much bigger obstacle to relating to his character than gender.

reply

"Why is the gender of the person doing the things that the Doctor does in the show more important to you that the personality and manners etc of that person?"

I thought I answered that question quite clearly in my last response.

My idiosyncrasies and personality traits don't dictate who I am much because they are always evolving year to year.My gender however has played a huge role in the paths I've chosen in life and the decisions I've made.My gender greatly defines the person I've grown into.

Do think you would have taken the same route in life,have the same job,made the same decisions or have the same friends if you had you been born a different gender.Of course not.

The Doctors gender defines how he's been written and how he's been played for over 50 years.Turning him into a woman erases that character history.

reply

But the show isn't about you or how you feel about your physical gender which is fixed to whatever it is without intervention, regardless of what gender your inner self identifies with.

reply

And he and I both explained it to you. Are you dense? Time Lords and "Ladies" always placed as much importance on their gender as humans did until Moffat recently forced in the crap you're referring to. They've been more firmly established as reproducing sexually, marrying, and raising children in nuclear families like humans do, which wouldn't work if one spouse could suddenly switch sexes with any regeneration. I started a thread a while back making a similar argument that the op did. This gender bending crap is shallow pandering to the PC SJW brigade, nothing more. It's not well thought out. But I pointed out that, regardless of intent, trying to reduce gender to something as cosmetic and malleable as hair or eye color unwittingly undermines the notion that gender should be treated as an important aspect of one's identity, and that, for example, tax payers should be on the hook for things like funding sexual reassignment surgery. By Moffat's blind "logic" they should instead tell transgendered people that gender doesn't matter so it's not worth the fuss, and to get over it.

Gender is a core part of people's identity. Men and woman are very different, and that's a good thing. It makes life more interesting. Pretending otherwise is going in the wrong direction. That's in addition to all the other sound reasons to oppose what the BBC is doing.

reply

It's not a core part of a fictional alien timelord.

reply

It has been over the decades. The real Doctor is a man and always will be.

reply

Being an old Grandfather played by William Hartnell was a core part of the Doctor.

Then being a totally different actor with different personality and demeanour was a core part.

Proceeding with younger and younger actors changing the core personality, demeanour and appearance in that direction was a core part of the doctor.

reply

No, being an old grandfather is merely a stage of one's life and a relationship with one person. Hair color and certain personality traits are ephemeral, while other aspects of his identity are core to who he is.

reply

Not everyone becomes an old grandfather. You cannot identify with one until your are one.

Hair and personality are important to some people. They carefully maintain a certain appearance and attitude because how they project is important to how they identify themselves.

Some people like to change. An important part of how they see themselves is their ability not to be pigeonholed in their appearance or demeanor.

reply

You don't have to possess a trait to recognize the difference between it and a completely different category of characteristic. This is largely biology.

reply

Your point being?

reply

You don't have to become a grandfather before you can objectively point out the difference between being a grandfather (or any other relationship) and one's gender. The latter is biologically rooted at a person's core and is vastly more fundamental to identity.

reply

No it isn't.

Once you have a character who can potentially transcend all of time and space, it's utterly silly to impose a biological imperatives which are simply the product of expediency when making a television show..

reply

I disagree. The Doctor is very much a developed character vital to the show, not just a prop to steer a machine and viewers to different settings each week (at least when they aren't stuck on earth in Britain).

reply

He did not develop as an elderly uncle. So that logic doesn't stand up.

reply

Huh? You need to flesh your point out with a little logic of its own.

reply

The first doctor was an elderly uncle. The show never developed those aspects.

reply

You mean grandfather?

reply

That too.

reply

His granddaughter Susan was in it for years so it was developed, but as I said each person simultaneously has multiple relationship roles that naturally grow or shift over time, so that's less fundamental to one's identity than sex is. If anything though the "grandfather" years more strongly established his maleness.

reply

Remember that "One's" identity refers to an alien species. A Timelord.

Grandfather and grandmother archetyphes are often employed to remove sexuality from the equation.

reply

Remember everything else said on this thread in counterpoint. As for grandparents, they certainly don't remove gender identity from the equation. Male and female grandparents have very different characteristics. The "grandfather" Doctor was particularly male. He'd alternate between grumpy and playful, had a big ego, was immensely stubborn and sometimes rude, was hard, could make tough decisions, flirted with women, loved solving abstract problems (as always), and had a masculine sense of humor.

reply

Sounds like my grandmother.

reply

There are some female chess grandmasters too, but around 98% of them are men. We're talking tendencies here, especially overwhelming when you combine all the traits I listed and others I didn't.

The Doctor is certainly an elite chess player, with all that entails.

reply

So the doctor can be a woman. Ok then.


Up the two percent.

reply

Not the real Doctor, because he's a man. This stuff being peddled by the BBC now is garbage.

And you're completely missing my point about tendencies. The combination of all these things underscore that there are real differences between men and women. Sex isn't meaningless and cosmetic.

reply

So you're backpedalling and implying a female chess master can't be a real chess master.

Your sex is not meaningless and cosmetic to you. But it is not the same as the sex of aliens native to the planet Gallifrey. Because you are not the same as them.

reply

Huh? I haven't backpedaled on anything. I supported my point with a powerful fact. Do you acknowledge there are real differences between the sexes or are you operating under the illusion that gender is merely a malleable social construction?

And your "alien" comment just rehashes an obvious but shallow argument already dispensed with all over this board. You're missing the point. If Time Lords really existed and switched genders for some reason your argument would be valid.

But Time Lords don't really exist. The show is fictional. The BBC is changing the character into a "woman" (actually a sex fluid freak, not a woman, but they're vapid morons who haven't thought this through) for real life, earthly political concerns, pandering to the vocal SJW fringe. I and others have already spelled out numerous problems with that.

Furthermore, it doesn't make sense within the show's own continuity, given what's been established about Time Lords over the decades and what we know about science, so it's bad story telling.

reply

"I'm asking the OP how the gender of the tv character is more important to them in relating to what they do than their personality, mannerisms, kindness, courage etc. "

Be cause each actor brings in their own unique personalities to the show. This gender flip is an attempt to appease the current political climate and is viewed as contrived. It just feels like politics dominated the decision to generflip Dr. Who. Had this happened earlier like the 80s or something it'd be less of an eye role.

reply

"Because each actor brings in their own unique personalities to the show."

Justifies anyone being cast as the Doctor.

"an attempt to appease the current political climate"

Justifies casting only men in the role of the Doctor, because of silly presumptions.

reply

I'm not talking about justification. I'm saying if they were going to use a female naturally it would have been done by now. Doing it in this current political environment is contrived. Next we'll have a gay doctor who appear soon.

reply

"... if they were going to use a female naturally it would have been done by now."

....unless the producers felt that the climate was not right in the past or did not wish to attract the controversy it would inevitably generate, regardless of the climate.

reply

I think people were actually less uptight back then and it woulden't have been noticed. These days every one screams dscrimination or inequality that doctor who isn't (black, gay, female) etc so when they do make the character PC its obviously a contrived pick.

reply

People genuinely didn't anticipate that kind of casting. If it were ever suggested as a possibility to the general public it would undoubtedly have attracted controversy.

The idea that it's not necessary to do it in the current climate so doing it is gratuitous is totally absurd and would likely have been opposed by the same narrow minded people making that absurd claim but without the tortured logic.

The producers of Alien in 1979 exit-polled audiences about their response to the fact that the central character had been a woman. Most said that they were surprised by it and wondered if it would have been better if it had been a man. They did the same in 86 and that time the majority of those they polled said that it did not help the film that Ripley was a woman and that they would have preferred if it was a man.

So although audiences paid to see it in droves the ones most that had a definite opinion on the subject and wanted to give it were opposed to the character. Clearly that hasn't changed.

reply

"The idea that it's not necessary to do it in the current climate so doing it is gratuitous is totally absurd and would likely have been opposed by the same narrow minded people making that absurd claim but without the tortured logic. "

It feels contrived and I had been speculating with my friends that it was a matter of time before they genderflip Doctor Who. I was expecting this so for me the idea isn't absurd. Either I got lucky when the decision to cast a female doctor who was totally random (yeah right)or some executive deciding that they could expand the market by introducing a female Doctor Who(They care about money not women).

"The producers of Alien in 1979 exit-polled audiences about their response to the fact that the central character had been a woman. Most said that they were surprised by it and wondered if it would have been better if it had been a man. They did the same in 86 and that time the majority of those they polled said that it did not help the film that Ripley was a woman and that they would have preferred if it was a man. "

We were suprised by it but mostly because earlier in the film riply was portrayed as callous and a villian in that she wanted to leave Kane out side when he got face hugged. She wasn't a character we were rooting for at the time but warmed up to her by the end when we realized had the crew listened to her every thing would have been fine (Except for kane). Riplys portrayal in the film felt plausible. She didn't beat the monster to death she tricked it into approaching her and she blew it out the air lock. The level of fear riply portrayed when she lured the creature out was very realistic for both a man and a woman so we didn't recognize any femanist overtones. The film was mankind vs nature and survival and not the male vs female capabilities you see in films these days. We all loved alien and it was a cult hit.


"So although audiences paid to see it in droves the ones most that had a definite opinion on the subject and wanted to give it were opposed to the character. Clearly that hasn't changed."

I don't remember the reactions being that way when I saw it. Yes we were suprised that a woman was portrayed as defeating the alien but the film at least made it plausible and we felt the danger she was in, unlike the spinning bad ass combat heroine we see today that is immune to all dangers around her and the audience has no fear in her capabilities. We were not opposed to this realistic depiction of men and women in the film nor opposed to the fact that a woman defeated the monster.

reply

See, you're claiming that the circumstances and the climate during the old series were right for a woman doctor back then without it being a response to some contrived campaign, but you are ignoring the actual opinions given by people asked about their attitudes towards a female in a traditionally male role and using your retrospective appraisal of the success of the Alien series and Ripley in it.

The success of Jodie Whittaker's performance will determine whether it can be considered contrived or not.

reply

"See, you're claiming that the circumstances and the climate during the old series were right for a woman doctor back then without it being a response to some contrived campaign, but you are ignoring the actual opinions given by people asked about their attitudes towards a female in a traditionally male role and using your retrospective appraisal of the success of the Alien series and Ripley in it."

I'm ignoring those opinions cause I didn't see them back then. Yes we were suprised to see a woman in those roles but we wern't apposed to it. And of course we wondered what the role would have been like if riply were a man and we concluded they would be the same as riplies survivale wasn't contrived the the way a females role would be now days like Star Wars VII or the Think 2011 were women arn't depected realisticly anymore. These women are unstopable and immune to any danger in modern media and if men behaved like that there would be no emotional investment as the men playing these roles would never be perceived to be in any danger.

"The success of Jodie Whittaker's performance will determine whether it can be considered contrived or not. "

I'm not even talking about her performance. I'm talking about the decision to genderflip the Doctor who was contrived. I'm not opposed to this and I've already explained I was expecting this to happen. I think the decision feels lame but what ever at least the series is gonna keep going on.

reply

So you're trying to say that it wouldn't have to be a contrivance for the Doctor to have been a female thirty years ago and presuming that casting one now can only be a contrivance and the success of Whittaker's performance is irrelevant.

Cheerio then.

reply

The Doctor isn't a woman trapped inside a man's body. Being a man is a core part of his identity.


My first thought is to go 'Did you ask the Doctor?' But that would be cheap.

The Doctor has been white and male since the beginning but the day that Hartnell regenerated meant that everything was up for grabs, this is just them getting around to things.

Until you actually see how a female doctor works we can't judge. Missy worked and I'd say for the MASTER being male was more part of his core identity. If it wasn't he wouldn't have chosen a weighted name. The Doctor is a gender neutral one and the Doctor's identity has always been based on the writing and the actor involved.

reply

The "Missy" arc was incredibly stupid and likely one of the reasons ratings plunged in recent years, along with the other political crap they kept stubbornly forcing in. And you're wrong. I can judge the act of retconning Time Lords to suddenly make them gender switchers because it's a moronic idea that destroys the entire legacy of Doctor Who, unless one considers the garbage being churned out now to be non-canonical. It transcends petty issues like whether the new actress is given snappy dialogue or not, and it's not like the damage could be reversed within this continuity if it doesn't "work" by going back to a male for the next regeneration. The damage will have been done.

The Doctor always being male makes sense since being a man is a core part of his identity. Always being white is understandable if one makes the reasonable assumption that regenerations are rearrangements of inherited DNA, though changing skin colors would have been a lot better than switching sexes (maybe the Doctor had a dark skinned ancestor in some corner of his family tree). Less easy to explain is why he always has a British accent, though ironically that's the trait that will likely always remain. Sex, however, is determined at a more fundamental chromosomal level than traits like height or hair color. Being a man has informed his personality across all of his regenerations.

If you wanted a female Time Lord then it would have been easy to bring back an old established character or introduce a new one. Make her the star of her own spin off series. It's not like people oppose good female characters. Heck, the Sarah Jane Chronicles were popular and only ended because the actress passed away. Unless, of course, the act of the gender switch itself, more than just having a female Time Lord, was crucial to the point being made. It's a shame that Doctor Who was destroyed to make a vapid political point.

reply

Sorry but it has been canon since classic who that time lords can change both gender and their outward species appearance. Romana changed into a silver skinned alien of indeterminate gender when she was choosing what form she was regenerating into.

Also the Master changed into a lizard like creature while trying to stay alive both in the Baker years and during that awful TV movie. So the idea that Time lords were always one gender or one skin tone or can only change race if there is a dark skinned ancestor is more on a small segment of the audience than actual canon.

As with regard to t transcending the petty issues of what the actress or actor is given, that I disagree with. The writing transcends all - look at McGann's doctor. The TV movie is awful, the 8th Doctor is an after thought to most but I don't blame McGann for that, just an awful attempt to americanise Who, just like Torchwood suffered in Miracle day.

But the Night of the Doctor is a charm that any whovian should watch - why? Because the writing works, just like with Torchwood 'The Children of Earth' does.

If the writing is good then it doesn't matter if it is a she, he or a three headed newt. You will have a great Doctor. The writing is bad then it will be bad. And as much as gender informs a person's actions it isn't the thing that counts in a fictional character, it is the writing that counts and if the writing is bad it is that which will spoil things not her gender. Blaming bad writing on gender for a alien that regenerates into completely new beings is like blaming the problems with the 6th doctor solely on Colin Baker's coat.

reply

No it hasn't. There wasn't any notion of Time Lords switching genders in the classic Who. The closest reference was in a late 1970s episode written by Douglas Adams that was never completed or aired within continuity and isn't canon, and even that was just a vague throwaway line that could have meant this other Time Lord (whom the Doctor described as unusual and someone who was generally disapproved of) was merely effeminate or a transvestite or something.

The Master was depicted taking over other beings' bodies after he had used up his regenerations. Romana was never shown changing into a man, nor were any other Time Lords or Ladies shown switching genders. There may be grounds for having Time Lords mutate into different looking creatures sometimes when they're in close proximity to them, but that's rare and different from switching sexes anyway. Many Time Lords have been shown, especially in the classic series, and they've almost all been humanoid. It's been well established that they sexually reproduce, marry, and raise children in nuclear families like humans do. That wouldn't work if one spouse might suddenly switch genders with any regeneration. Gallifreyan society has also traditionally been described as "patriarchal", which also wouldn't work if Time Lords could suddenly switch genders.

I actually appreciated the 1990s movie as an old Doctor Who fan because it resurrected a defunct series, but the writing has been truly awful under Moffat in recent years. The past three years in particular Doctor Who has been one of the worst written shows on tv. But Doctor Who has been able to survive bad writing spells in the past because the character and show's inherent charm transcends that, so I disagree with you. By destroying that charm, as they have, what you have in mind as writing quality (episode to episode plots; dialogue quality) doesn't matter as much. That comes and goes. Something much more iconic was lost here.

reply

Romana in the scene where she was trying on other 'looks' did turn into a small blue/silver alien of a gender that can be argued as male or female or something else in Destiny of the Daleks.

It may have been a throw away joke inserted by Adams into Nation's script but it is there.

And in Moffat's turn there were mentions of gender swapping Timelords before Missy turned up.

As for reproduction in timelords, god I'm so confused can they reproduce like us or is there family looms or a mixture of both. And I know you are going to say that isn't canon but we have had Doctors call out the names of companions from books and big finish so what is deemed canon has grown. Hell is Susan the biological grandchild of the Doctor or a Gallifrayan who was adopted.

We have a 50 year old property whose canon isn't exactly set in stone.

As for destroying the charm, Colin Baker's doctor had little charm. Not his fault bad writing and timing. The show survived and it will still but you are saying this without even seeing Whittaker in action.

reply

If the look Romana briefly "tried on" wasn't clearly male, then there's no reason to assume it was anything but female, as she was in every incarnation we saw her as. There's even reason to doubt the different "looks" would have been permanent anyway and were anything more than her playing around with regenerative energy by temporarily assuming different forms. It was certainly unlike any other regeneration we've seen.

The Adams episode wasn't even completed and isn't canon, aside from the vagueness of the light-hearted throw away line.

Moffat's gender swapping stuff was very recent in the history of Doctor Who. Until now it all could have been written off. Matt Smith's brief alarm that he might be a "girl" was obviously nonsense stemming from post-regenerative confusion. The Doctor has a long history of saying and doing crazy things in that state. Even "Missy" could have been fixed by a competent future showrunner explaining that the Master had taken over someone else's body as he's done before. After all, they've dismissed other things like the throwaway line from the Doctor about having 507 regenerations and stuff from the movie about him being half human, which was actually delivered with more sincerity and was a deeper part of the plot.

Yes, the books aren't canon. Simply referencing an item here or there from them doesn't mean everything in them is accepted. It can't be, since the books wildly contradict themselves all over the place. They're essentially stand alone fan fiction.

I'm talking about the show's inherent charm, which transcended bad writing spells and in my opinion was dependent in part on the Doctor's core identity, of which being a man is an essential component. A great female Time Lord would have her own distinct identity.





reply

It wasn't Shada, it was in Destiny of the Daleks. That was Adams first script editor credit I think. But the bulk was written by Terry Nation and it was Lalla Ward's first appearance as Romana.

And if you can't for definite say it wasn't male, you can't say it was definitely female either. So consequently you can say that gender isn't something all time lords are always attached too.

As for wildly contradicting itself, how long have you watched Who for?

reply

- No, the Adams line I was referring to was from the non-canonical Shada. My comments about the Romana regeneration (in Destiney of the Daleks) were separate and in response to you raising it.

- If it wasn't male then it's not an example of gender switching. It doesn't support your earlier claim.

- The books have even more wildly divergent contradictions, but the point is that they're non-canonical.

reply

Personaly I think the books can become canon at any time the producers or writers feel like they can, just as Marvel and DC take things from the various universes of their comics. Mixing some Ultimate Spider-Man stuff in with Incredible Spider-Man stuff or bringing in anything they see fit at the time.

If it exists in the Who universe whether in book form or TV then it is possible, everything is non-canon until it isn't any more, just like they brought in the Corsair being both Male and Female in the Doctor's Wife:

See that snake? The mark of the Corsair.
Fantastic bloke.
He had that snake as a tattoo in every regeneration.
Didn't feel like himself without the tattoo.
Or herself, a couple of times.
Ooh, she was a bad girl!


That has been added after the ill-fated Douglas Adams episode that eventually became a book never aired but was going to go there about the Corsair, so it was added to canon, just as anything can anytime from any book (or comic) if they want.

My line would be drawn though on if they decided to make Peter Cushing's Dr. Who and the Daleks (1965) and Daleks – Invasion Earth: 2150 A.D. (1966) part of canon, I do have my limits. Plus if this change turns out to be a cheap prop to make up for some of the piss-poor writing lately then I won't be happy, however at the same time I won't blame it on the Doctor being a woman either.

Having said that, this is just going in circles I won't change my mind and others won't change there's, so time to leave it as me agreeing to disagree, no point continuing.

reply

Personaly I think the books can become canon at any time the producers or writers feel like they can,

Of course they could, but they haven't declared the books canon and have contradicted them in various places. I was correcting the claim that the Time Lords switching sexes was part of long established canon going back to the classic series. It's not.

The Corsair mention you quote, in addition to being the sort of vague quick shot that could be interpreted in any number of ways (including that he was merely a transvestite), and setting aside that he's characterizing the "bad girl" as unusual, was from the recent Moffat years we've already been discussing. Instead of looking for exceptions in non-canonical sources, people should be honest enough to recognize the reality that this gender bending stuff simply wasn't part of Classic Who, and doesn't fit in with what we know about the characters' family relationships or how the two sexes routinely interacted with each other (even through most of Nu-Who, like the Doctor's own, very normal sounding parents).

Fans can decide their own canons too. As a long time Doctor Who fan I personally don't consider any of this garbage the BBC is churning out now, and possibly for the past three years, to be canon. That kind of thing isn't without precedent. I'm also a Highlander fan, and Highlander fans generally agree to pretend Highlander 2 and certain scenes in other movies never happened. The writers tended to act like that too even though I don't recall any official announcements about it.

I'll always be a fan of what I consider to be the real Doctor Who. This ain't it.







reply

I do get it which is why I'm not going to debate the point any more, especially understand from the point of people who only know the show (I know you know the books and etc., not all do).

So yeah like I've said elsewhere, I think that since the Daleks episode where they became multi-coloured it has been a marketing excerise again like from the Fourth Doctor on. I really lost interest in David Tenant from that point on as well (he became a caricature of himself), by the time of his death scene I was face palming and shaking my head a lot.

When Matt Smith first popped up I liked it a lot as it had shades of the slightly nutty Tom Baker Doctor, especially when he was arguing with himself. I also liked the nod to the comic where Who and Trek met (Nightmare In Silver ep), along with the other nods to the books. Then it went downhill again and I lost interest in Matt Smith because it went away from being about the Doctor (River Song and etc), which lead into The Clara Oswold Show and Capaladi being underutilised.

You have given me a thought though, would have been fun if they cast Eddie Izzard as this next Doctor and he crossed dressed a bit in it (or at least had a wardrobe of women's clothes). Like I said though I don't mind it being a woman, however it better be for a good reason and not just done on a whim. If they go the Bill route and have the Doctor declare himself a woman every episode like Bill had to say she was a lesbian, they'll lose me.

If the Doctor is to be a woman then it has to be that the Doctor just carries on as usual as if it's just another form taken, referencing it will make it very non Doctor like.

reply

You better watch out bud, these two trolls will start calling you sexist and making threads dedicated just to you. Theyll of course make a new account to do so because theyre such utter dipshits.

Fishy knickers is just a sad fatty that thinks equality and women on top is the same thing. As for the other dope, just another SJW white knight trying to get laid on the internet. Sad really.

reply

Well if that's the case they'll find themselves increasingly busy, and will eventually conclude that they've bitten off more than they can chew.

reply

Did my presence trigger you to come out?

We've discussed this. You are coming across more and more like you are unhinged. I'm sure that isn't what you want. So please for your own sake take a breath.

reply

Aww going for that one again? Lol The desperation is starting to smell worse than the knickers at this point.

reply

You are getting obsessed with my knickers.

Firstly never going to happen mate and secondly have you asked your 'girlfriend' what she thinks about how you start talking to random strangers about their used underwear.

It isn't healthy.

reply

[deleted]

FordFairlane:
Nobody asked for your opinion that you shove on everybody anyway,troll. Now get lost and go whine somewhere else, lol.

reply

A pertinent aspect I think is the way experts/scientists and protagonists are normally perceived. Frequently men can be found in positions of authority in science and scientific fields are dominated by men but don't actually exclude woman as researchers or technical experts. This is the current social reality and one reason why the Doctor was written as a male and in terms of being a symbolic human being in the story. In terms of the Doctor's alien cultural background, he came from a social class based limited meritocracy staffed by technical acolytes seemingly favouring males (reflecting real world British society where privileged groups dominate institutions and advanced technical activities).

reply

Setting aside the enormous biological (not merely social) differences between men and women (with even male and female babies responding to stimuli in different ways), if your interest is in encouraging women to become scientists, scowling, stuffy scholars, hard edged, cold analysts with social skills that are often outrageously rough around the edges, dignified loners who value their independence over committed relationships but also sometimes prefer the company of companions (especially young female ones), people with masculine senses of humor who relate to men and women in different ways, who have a boyish love of adventure and reckless curiosity, chess players, robust athletes, fighters, warriors, etc., why not simply bring back or introduce a female Time Lord character who can stand on her own and be an encouraging symbol for girls to enter STEM fields or whatever? Why wreck a great character who had been around for over half a century?

reply

My feeling is that the Doctor being presented as a male is justified but not compulsory. I don't believe there needs to be a change but I'm not imposed to trying it. I am opposed to efforts to politicise the character for social engineering purposes. It's not entirely clear which reason or motivation has influenced the producers or executives who greenlight decisions for the show.

For my part, I'm happy to interpret and contextualise the decision in my own way unhindered or influenced or lead by media organisations/broadcasters. We'll see how the stories are written and performed and to what degree these promote a political agenda or doctrine.

reply

It seems pretty clear that the change is motivated by political concerns, judging from comments in interviews from Moffat and the vocal minority loudly screaming for it in recent years, and at the very least is being interpreted as such by many. They've been demanding a "female Doctor" for the sake of having a female Doctor and mindlessly calling anyone who opposed the idea "sexist". It's not like there's been a huge movement to specifically cast Jodie Whittaker because she would somehow uniquely make a great Doctor apart from her gender.

reply

I'm not opposed to it. But it is lame in my opinion.

reply

Also, I agree that creating a female Time Lord character is entirely viable. Maybe the issue is who is the most popular character, who is the central hero, who is the authority figure in the story? Here it is the Doctor above and beyond anyone else in the story. Everyone watching tends to assume this idea based on the title of the show and who seems to be defining the stories. The Doctor is a powerful individual so what's stopping female characters being powerful individuals? In the mind of the producers it may be because other characters are simply secondary characters despite the promotion/engineering of contemporary style characters and the general writing of stories.

reply

The problem is that they aren't just creating new "powerful" female characters with their own shows, they're destroying existing male ones.

reply

Like battle star galacitca with star bucks. WTF was that?

reply

I thought of that too when I was replying earlier, lol.

reply

krl97a:

Why don't you stop acting as if Dr. Who being a woman brings down or diminishes the character in some way? It dosen't---it merely makes the character more interesting. I mean, you had to problem with the characters regenerating into man after man, but soon as that same character becomes female, you're all like, "Aaaaaargh! Dr. Who is a he, and he can't be a woman because he's already a man! Aaaaaargh again!Aaaaargh! The world as I know it is ending because Dr. Who went and got a sex change!" LOL! Nah, it's just yet another reincarnation/regeneration the Time Lord's going through, that's all. He's a woman now---get over it. Of course,being a woman now,she'll bring a different approach to things as well as a different point of view----not a damn thing wrong with that. You're basically saying that those alone are reason the Time Lord shouldn't be a woman, which make no damn sense whatsoever. she is what she is now---deal with it.

reply

It doesn't just diminish the character it destroys it for reasons I clearly laid out. You responding with "No it doesn't!" isn't a real counterargument. And I have dealt with it, by deciding that I'm no longer watching the show and I don't consider the past three seasons canon. Millions of fans disagree with you. You deal with that.

reply

So what your'e saying is that the Doctor manifested as a reflection of our own society.

Society and gender are two separate things. If society's attitudes towards other people's gender (and The Doctor will always be another person. Not the "self" of any one audience member or members) are not fixed then the show is going to reflect that.

The only way that this could unduly alter someone's perception of their self withing the context of gender is if they got the notion that they ought to be able to transform from Peter Capaldi to Jodie Whittaker.

reply

Yes, a kind of manifestation of individualism with male tendencies. I see gender as both a cause of social patterns as well as something defined by society. Gender values are in part an intellectual construct as are gender roles - the biological needs and tendencies of sexual difference are magnified and catered for by socially mandated gender roles which also go beyond rational limits and assume certain opportunities and activities to be the domain of a given sex or gender. These roles can be and are redefined but I think an important question to ask is who or what is redefining them and why. Is it the individual who decides for themselves what their identity and capabilities are or is it institutions and powerful individuals which broadly determine what is valid for individuals in terms of gender identification?

No, I believe what the show can do is influence opinions about what it means to be a man or a woman and define the power and status relationships between them. You can tell stories but embed within them social values to influence an audience. You can suggest ideas that can be psychologically internalised, eg. female Doctor suggests repetitively that male companions should stop making jokes about the TARDIS calling them "idiotic" - this is not mere banter but an attempt to control his behaviour to suit her preferences.

reply

The doctor has called all humans idiots on a regular basis. If it becomes an attempt to control male behavior that we need to be wary of because it's now a female doctor then we're inviting a double standard. Which is the opposite intent of having a female doctor.

I came across this kind of anxiety recently on a radio programme where someone was calling for children's television shows to put an end to depictions of toddlers being amused by their father's (not their parent's) misfortune or just by their father, period. That the child's natural delight at the subversion of the person who is presented to them as the authority figure plants notions of the wretchedness of adult males in children's minds (including the children who will grow up to be wretched adult males, presumably). The words "silly daddy, hee-hee-hee" should be struck from every child cartoon character's lips. It doesn't matter that daddy slipped on a banana skin, stepped in too muddy a puddle, or burned his sausage on the barbecue. Children should not be allowed to perceive or remark upon the humour of that situation.

Demented.

reply

"The doctor has called all humans idiots on a regular basis. If it becomes an attempt to control male behavior that we need to be wary of because it's now a female doctor then we're inviting a double standard. Which is the opposite intent of having a female doctor."

Yes, but usually either for constructive reasons or to illustrate his own pomposity. What I'm referring to in my example is criticism for the sake of asserting power and in a *repetitive* manner to battle assumed male arrogance in the narrative. The Doctor - in male or female guise - would not be threatened about perceived gender competition as he is automatically an "equalist", it's not issue for him. His feelings about his personal authority as an advanced alien might be another matter, where he might insist on "being right" and verbally reject comments or assertions by others. It's not a gender war for him but the new writers of the series might want to make it an issue for him. I think symbolically transforming into a female guise is a way of saying he wants to see things more from a woman's point of view, not to lecture males on their "misbehaviour" or construct them as deviants. So, the type of writing is a concern where an agenda is being pushed is an issue not the fact that the Doctor is female now.

Your example of an instance of "special pleading" makes a good point - there is nothing wrong about utilising humour or questioning authority. However, the question is is do those instances serve a dual role, the other role being to subtly construct authority and deviance to suit a proactive feminist agenda? The media are forever involved in selecting what will or will not appear on television, including advertising. Considering that the consumer dollar is dominated by a significant female cohort and the social moves to increase female participation in male dominated roles to improve opportunities, isn't it likely that everything which compares men and women is a potential vehicle to minimise men?

reply

In other words, to conclude, isn't it clear that for some women and male feminists men represent competition that must be strategically minimised and society at large indoctrinated to accept not equality but to see men as social stragglers unless they conform and accept the new patriarchy? A positive gender advancement would see social problems being properly addressed, instead the real focus is on material advancement and profits for men and women in power.

reply

"What I'm referring to in my example...."

Your referring to your hypothetical example of repetitive, hypothetically dual purposed use of conventionally accepted banter from an inferred anti-male agenda.

Hypothetically, every utterance that the doctor says to anyone can be inferred as having a dual purpose of being anti- whatever the addressee is that the doctor is not. Not the Doctor's height, not the doctor's weight, age, accent etc, etc.

Hypothetically speaking, everything potentially has an anti- purpose.

Until the Doctor stops aiming for what the Doctor has always aimed at, helping those in need, then there is no need to infer that the character is now anti anything she wasn't anti- before or out to minimise something that was not minimal before she showed up as a woman.

Except perhaps minimising prejudices that she may not have faced as much when she appeared to humans as a man.



reply

You're completely right, horrorfan000, except I'm done watching it. It's not like the show's been good anyway. I like the actors but the writing has been terrible. I've only been forcing myself to watch because I've been a Doctor Who fan since I was a kid in the 1980s. With this moronic move the BBC isn't just making a catastrophic mistake with the current series, but is wrecking the show's entire half century legacy.

The only way to preserve that legacy is to consider part or all of New Who non-canonical. Maybe we could get away with just excising the past couple of seasons. Either way I hope this show gets cancelled soon. Wouldn't shock me given that its ratings have been tanking as it's continued to obnoxiously push a PC SJW agenda that's out of touch with the popular zeitgeist and has been shrinking its audience. Instead of pulling away from that they've doubled down. Regardless of what happens going forward, I'll always be a fan of the real Doctor Who, but it looks like that show is over.

reply

who

reply

Inevitably people will interpret the Doctor in terms of how she is as a female character besides the core personality attributes portrayed. However, does this have to be dogmatically an opportunity to be a feminist or a girly girl or whatever mundane role that can be conceived? I read somewhere about the Doctor being a "shapeshifter" and certainly that opens up the field as to what form the Doctor takes during each biological regeneration. So as a result the Doctor can be female or simulate female attributes. Whatever form the Doctor takes is I think meant to reflect experiences or the new understanding developed in the last form - I think on a deeper level this is what is meant to have meaning beyond surface assumptions and politics.

Consider the past incarnations of the Doctor: the original elderly form of the first Doctor gives way to a lighter more youthful personality, more accepting of differences and tolerant of lesser minds; the deemed irresponsibility of the second Doctor gives way to a form that is more serious and "leadership material" to help guide Earthlings and UNIT initially; the third Doctor changes into more of a combination of buffoon and impressive intellectual who likes his independence; after a terrible accident the fourth Doctor regenerates into a more nervous version who is less inclined to just "jump in" to situations; the fifth Doctor seems to evolve into a more brash dandy character in his next regeneration; the sixth Doctor changes form into a less imposing generally cheerful character who has a dark anarchistic mindset; the seventh Doctor turns into a more serious elegant character then later one faced with a cosmic crisis that he can't remedy (the "War Doctor"); still later we see the Doctor in a youthful form who is trying to cope with his troubled past; the ninth Doctor then changes into a more relaxed young man; the Doctor seems to want to return to his professorish boffin roots as a travelling expert in his next form; (cont.)

reply

(cont.) he realises this more acutely in the next incarnation where he is an older man but has trouble coping with his new image and now struggles to relate to younger people psychologically but still can impress with his sense of fun and adventure.

All the time he remains at core the same inscrutable but friendly being.

reply

It's not feminism unless you take something away from a man.

reply

"Paging Dr. Jender... Dr. Bruce Jender..."

reply