MovieChat Forums > Numb3rs (2005) Discussion > How real is this show.

How real is this show.


I do not understand math or "game theory", but i understand that they might have a cross over to reality other than a register telling me how much i should pay for a soda.

This show is almost good to me, but i am bothered by its need to interject the MATH element in every episode, as if math has the ability to account for all these situations...

Am i wrong? Or is just a premise heavy show that apply's the same formula over and over despite the insanity or improbability of such activity's ever occuring?!

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Well, Charlie's math is pretty much the whole point of the show. Also, we use math more often than we think (well, that might not apply to anyone, but it supposedly applies to an FBI-team like Don's), something the show really tries to emphasize.

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Yeah the math stuff is kinda the point of the show. It's what makes it different from other cop shows.

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[deleted]

Show is BS...
in one episode( "Pandora's Box") where hacker writes a code(and plants it in air traffic control computers-LOL) to hide a plane from the radar.... From examining the code they found who wrote it. Explanation: "Code leaves traces when it goes from one PC to another". Retarded.

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Tango Romeo Oscar Lima Lima.


Jimmy: "He wouldn't let me drive. I begged and begged" - Ignition

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I'm watching Season 1 on DVD for the first time. In episode 12 or 13 with the sniper, Charlie labels the x-axis as the y instead! And they zoom in on it, like no one caught the mistake. I'm ok with them throwing out these theories and covering it up like they know what they're talking about, but this threw me out of the show because it's such a bad mistake.

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If you rotate a model 90 degrees, the x-axis is the y-axis. Now, if he had confused the z-axis, I would have had a real problem with it.


(Tongue firmly embedded in cheek)

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The odd episode has a decently realistic application of math, but most are absurd.. While the math itself may be real, you just can't use it to determine a single persons actions like he does.. Math isn't bad at determining the behavior of a large group but not small groups/individuals..
As an analogy consider a coin flip to be a person.. If you flip a few coins and work out the ratio of heads to tails you might end up with exactly 50%, but you might end up with a giant imbalance.. If you flip millions of coins however, the ratio will get closer and closer to 50%..

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I'm guessing you're not a forensic mathematician. It turns out that you can use mathematical analysis of the geographic pattern of crimes to catch an individual criminal. This is discussed in nonfiction books such as "Mapping Murder" by David Canter.

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@pt100: what cable232 is probably saying is that you need a fairly large number of cases to make a statistical prediction. What you are talking about isn't that different - instead of cases being individual people, "cases" means the individual acts of a single person. Regression toward the mean is a statistical phenomenon that roughly means "all things tend to average out" over multiple measurements, whether the things being measured are single instances of multiple individuals, or multiple instances of a single individual. It's one of those things I generally understand but won't be very good at explaining, but it sounds to me like you and cable232 aren't really saying anything that's too different. How's THAT for confusing?

neat . . . sweet . . . petite

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Well, cable232 was just plain wrong, and I think you're being a bit too generous to him. He said one can't use math to predict the behavior of a single individual. But he failed to realize precisely what you mentioned: that one can have multiple data points (observations) on a single individual, thus producing a statistically reliable sample (enough degrees of freedom). So I agree mostly with your comments (but see below), but not his. Quite a few individual criminals have been identified by their pattern of behavior.

However, when homing on a perpetrator, classical statistics such as regression modeling are not always necessary; therefore large data samples are not as crucial. In these cases, we are looking for patterns of probabilities (e.g., Bayesian statistics), distances, etc.; not necessarily a single predictive equation such as a regression model.

But when using something like least-squares regression, the key to successful predictive analytics is to have a high enough ratio of observations to variables: 10:1 at a bare minimum; 20:1 is better; and at least 50:1 is even better.

Note that if the ratio of data points to variables is only 1:1, then any data values, no matter what they are, will always give a "perfect" regression-model prediction, but it will be wrong and totally useless. I.e., if I have 10 people measured on 10 variables, then a regression model will always give a perfect result (R-squared = 1.00). But it will be totally bogus. I could use variables such as street address, height, social security number, etc., to "predict" or "estimate" IQ. And if I have 10 such randomly selected variables on any 10 people, the regression will always return a "perfect" but meaningless result.

But in that case, the problem is *not* a lack of data points per se, but rather too low a *ratio* of data points to variables.

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I'm sure all of the maths is real and applicable to every episode but, in reality, I doubt there would be so many cases so easily solved by a maths equation otherwise the FBI would be full of mathematicians.

That said, maths is the angle of this show so it would be pointless to have an episode without it. And the show could easily be made more realistic if it was made clear that for every case Charlie is shown to be helping the team with, they would be working on another five to ten ongoing cases at the same time that Charlie and maths have nothing to do with.



"I always pretend to root for Gryffindors but, secretly, I love my Slytherin boys."~ Karen, W&G

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don't forget guys the main character is a genius, and complex formulaic maths can be just a way of showing investigative techniques. His maths is more like coded english than simple maths like 1 plus 1

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actually the FBI has many mathmeticians who work for them.
they use them in many cases to solve crimes.
and math can do exactly what it does on the show

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Aside from the math, the cop procedures are un-real:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433309/board/nest/152829090


I'm an English fan.

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I just started reading The Numbers Behind NUMB3RS: Solving Crime with Mathematics (http://www.amazon.com/Numbers-Behind-NUMB3RS-Solving-Mathematics/dp/04 52288576/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267758264&sr=8-1). From what I've read so far, what we've seen in episodes has been used at some time or another to solve a real crime in one place or another. But as another poster said, if the show implied that the agents were working on many cases at a time and only occasionally needed the math consultant, that might be more realistic.

Aside from the math, the cop procedures are un-real
As far as the examples you quote from a previous thread, I'd say that these errors are pretty standard on TV shows. For example, one often sees TV law enforcement respond to calls with barely any personnel. In my experience, though, I've seen the number vary widely. The four times I had a purse snatched (all more than 20 years ago), basically one or a pair of cops came to talk to me. About 7 years ago, when my son (12) decided to go to a sleepover at the end of the school year without telling us a full six sheriffs came out to help figure out where our missing son was.


-----------------
"I've always resisted the notion that knowledge ruined paradise." Prof. Xavier

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As the show went on and on it the mathematics utilized became so distorted it would be funny if it wasn't as painful to watch.

As far as the earlier seasons go some of them were based on real-life cases but it's obviously given the Hollywood treatment. It's not nearly as tidy in real-life as it's shown on the screen. I also love how little time it takes Charlie to grind something out.

Plus, Charlie has the superhuman capacity to recognize any mathematics, no matter how terse, just with a quick glance of the pad. Unrealistic.

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Unrealistic for someone who could multiply 4-digit numbers in his head at the age of 3?

What I find surprising is that with only a five-year difference between him and Don, that Charlie didn't end up graduating high school several years EARLIER than Don, rather than at the same time.

Destroy all that which is evil, so that which is good may flourish.

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I hope you're not under the impression that higher math is all about multiplying large numbers, or that it is essentially the process of being a "superaccountant".

Telling me a kid can multiply 4 digit numbers in his head at the age of 3 tells me he's precocious, not that he'll end up a mathematician (or will even excel at it at an advanced age).

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While some episodes have significant influence of maths, quite often they cannot solve. Mainly because of 2 reasons.

1) Charlie cannot possibly have ALL the facts he needs to come up with an algorithm.

Take the pilot episode for example. Charlie says that he can predict the rapist's location. He uses the sprinkler as an example. But then he found that his algorithm was wrong because the locations chosen can be from multiple points (two sprinkler example). However, even that can be wrong because unless the killer spread his targets in circular pattern from both locations, Charlie cannot know that it's only from 2 locations. If the killer had more than 2 comfort zones, the spread will be different too (say his current living place, his work place and his parents' place). Without having the facts, he cannot come up with an algorithm.

Similarly in Dirty Bomb episode from Season 1, the guys did not intend to use the dirty bomb. Only threatened it. And Charlie predicted 2 locations and they blew up a normal bomb as a distraction. How would they know the cops would come to that exact place and evacuate it? They never specified a location and the target could have been anywhere. The math had nothing to do with the location they selected to burglarise. It was a lucky shot.

2) Human behavior is not predictable. A person's decision to do or not do something gets influenced by too many factors.

Charlie cannot predict a human's behavior. He can do a probability calculation but the probability won't take into fact about the suspect's experience/feelings etc. For example, if a suspect never took any risk in his life, then the probability will indicate he will not take any risk in the situation too. But what if the adrenaline pumped suspect decides to risk it? Charlie's equation cannot predict that.

Honestly, Megan's profiling (in Season 2 onwards) would help better than Charlie's probability when predicting what a suspect would do in a situation (which is why I think Criminal Minds series is more accurate than this). However, if he is handling cases involving numbers, then the math will be very useful. Because that is based on facts that cannot change. Not predicting something that is fluid and can change.

In some situations, it is ridiculous how they say math helped them. In one of the episodes (can't remember the name), they try to find a bullet the suspects shot in the air. They don't know the type of gun or the angle he shot. Yet they somehow got an algorithm and found the bullet. Seriously? The number of unknown variables (wind velocity etc.) are too many to even come up with radius to search for the bullet.

One thing Charlie said in Season 2 beginning was that the Math algorithm he creates is just a tool to help them. But later on, that became their primary source and not a tool. They should have combined the math with detective work in a better way than they did with some episodes.

<<-- Mess With The Best, Die Like The Rest -->>

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1) Charlie consistently makes inductions/guesses
2) Charlie adds values for the character traits and past experiences, see #1

As someone mentioned earlier the most unrealistic aspect of the show is how quick they can gather and organize the data needed to make an algorithm.

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But what my issue is that all the guesses end up correctly or close to it. Only very few episodes where Charlie made a mistake. Even induction/guesses cannot be that accurate.

<<-- Mess With The Best, Die Like The Rest -->>

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While I appreciate the need for a level of accuracy in a show, you have to remember that this is just supposed to be entertainment, not reality. If you want wild inaccuracies, just take a look at CSI! So it would get pretty boring pretty damn quickly if Charlie got it wrong all the time (he is supposed to be a math genius, after all).

The majority of the math is based on fact and existing theories (I highly recommend a read of 'The Numbers behind Numb3rs' by Keith Devlin and Gary Lorden), but it is a drama, so some artistic licence has to be taken to ensure that the show keeps bums on seats. Gary Lorden, the math consultant for the show, openly admits in the book that they had to 'tweak' some of the math to fit the storylines, but the fundamentals are accurate and the applications (in the majority of cases) are relevant and indeed have been used in the real world. This isn't an Open University broadcast, it's a CBS drama that's primarily designed to entertain first and educate second.

As for a previous poster's argument that they gather the data too quickly, again it's a one hour show (including advert breaks), so they have to 'speed things up a bit' rather than having the luxury of taking the days or weeks it would normally take in the real world to collate and examine the data. Plus, that thar CalSci supercomputer is pretty damn fast (faster than my bloody laptop, that's for sure!)


GOOGLE: Abbr. God's Own Official Guide to Locating Everything...

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I do agree with you at certain level. They have to take some artistic license to keep the show interesting. And I have no problem with that. But what I have problem with is when they rely on ONLY the mathematical theory to solve the cases. In season 2, they introduced Megan who brought in the psychological aspect (criminal profiling) to the show thereby give some data for charlie's theories. But in later seasons, they simply started to ignore that angle.

They used the fundamentals right but them relying ONLY on the maths for all the cases is what bothers me. That can be right when the episode is handling a case that involves numbers. But when it involves the criminals and somehow charlie predicts their behavior out of their existing movements without the psychological aspect, then they are reaching too far.

Have you seen Criminal Minds? That show is focused on psychological aspect of criminals and they take the time to go through the evidence to identify what explains the behavior of the criminal and filter down to who the culprit is. Ofcourse they were reaching in later seasons too but I liked the early seasons when they tried to be as logical as possible.

<<-- Mess With The Best, Die Like The Rest -->>

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I've heard a lot of good things about Criminal Minds, but as yet I haven't seen it. I'm also interested in the psychology of criminal investigation, so I might treat myself to a DVD set off Amazon and take a look-see at it (obviously after I've treated myself to season 6 of Numb3rs, though!)

At the end of the day, the show is called 'Numb3rs' so of course the focus is going to be on the mathematical element of criminal investigation. It was a shame that we lost Diane Farr's character, because I agree with you, the psycological profiling aspect of the investigations did give it a little more balance (although in season 6 that role falls more on Colby's shoulders as his character starts to show an aptitude for 'getting inside' people's heads, but was again overwhelmed by the overuse of bloody Nikki. My real bugbear with the last two seasons was the shoehorning in of Nikki's character at the expense of everyone elses including David, Colby and Liz, but that particular rant is for another day!)

Thanks for the head's up about Criminal Minds. Season one is on my wishlist at Amazon, so yeah, if I can get a good price on it, I might just 'buy blind' and see what transpires. But nothing will ever replace my beloved N3...BASTARDS, CBS!

Peace,
Kes

GOOGLE: Abbr. God's Own Official Guide to Locating Everything...

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Criminal Minds is actually a lot fun. Mainly because most of the early season episodes are mystery. You won't know who the bad guy is until they profile him/her. So it's fun to try and figure it out yourself. And it is pretty grusome sometimes.

Honestly speaking, I'm a geek who loves Maths so when I saw the show first time, I was happy to actually have a series that focused on mathematical equations. But repeated viewings made the low possibility of it actually working. And further down the season we go, the show just became too overwhelemed.

I however enjoyed the family dynamics between the characters. The math was not the main focus. The family dynamics was half the show and I enjoyed that (although repeated viewings made it obvious how self-centered Charlie is).

<<-- Mess With The Best, Die Like The Rest -->>

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I think that's one of the things that helped N3 stand out from other 'procedurals'. We got to really know the characters and the development of the dynamics and their relationships within the context of the environment they lived and worked in. I'm not a maths geek (I'm more of a 'kick the door in' kinda gal), but having a scientist for a father and a genius precision engineer/electronic wizz for a husband who is also an astronomer, I do have a real appreciation of a slightly more cerebral form of entertainment, especially if it's 'sciency'! Okay, there were mistakes, yeah, there were moments when you went, "There's no WAY that would work!", but for me they were few and far between and besides, I enjoyed watching things go BOOM! every so often (what can I say? I'm easily entertained, me!)

Charlie was a little self-centred, but then again, a lot of uber-intelligent people are (I've had this discussion elsewhere on the board with another fellow N3 fan). Not because they're intentionally self-centred, but because they simply don't 'register' the everyday, mundane stuff around them because their minds are focussed on other things. To Charlie, math is all-important. As the series goes on, you start to see a change in his personality as he realises that real life and the lives of those around him are just as important as algorithms. Towards the latter half of the series you do see a subtle change in his character, again another demonstration of how the writers developed his character naturally.

Ah, I've missed this! Randomly dissecting N3 in intelligent debate! Thank goodness for repeats on 5USA and good old ITV3! (Gotta love British TV scheduling...)

GOOGLE: Abbr. God's Own Official Guide to Locating Everything...

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True that many uber-intelligent people are self centred. I just found that fascinating that I didn't notice it in first viewing and only did in the repeated viewing (especially the last one). Maybe I grew up personally and started to recognize self centred behaviors. :)

Numbers will remain one of my favourite shows but personally I would have enjoyed a mix of profiling (CM style) mixed with Numbers. Profiling gives the data Charlie would need to come up with the algorithm instead of him making random guesses that turns out to be right 99%. Guess the geek part of me wanted things to be authentic.

<<-- Mess With The Best, Die Like The Rest -->>

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Nothing wrong with being a geek, mate! I'm married to one and he's a strange, wonderful, frustrating, complicated and beautiful human being whose intellect constantly astonishes and frequently baffles me! (I'm just a humble writer, but bless his heart, my CJ will happily sit and explain complicated mathematical theories to me in a way that I just about understand. Mind you, I understand Quantum way better than he does...go figure... Perhaps it takes a flaky, female kinda logic to understand that messed up sh!t!)

GOOGLE: Abbr. God's Own Official Guide to Locating Everything...

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I'm not ashamed of being a geek. Actually I'm proud of it. Because I use a muscle that most people tend not to use or use less. :D

<<-- Mess With The Best, Die Like The Rest -->>

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That's another unique aspect of N3. It actually celebrated geekiness in all its wonderful variety without being patronising.

Mind you, having just watched 'Charlie don't surf' from season 5 today, and being a complete surfer dudette myself, I still can't help laughing every time I see Charlie with his wetsuit on back to front! Dude, the zip DOES go on the back!

GOOGLE: Abbr. God's Own Official Guide to Locating Everything...

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But QM is all about the math.. No amount of Hawking garbage can actually explain it.. Plain and simple, you need a full background of math, and basic principles of physics to even try..

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you are failing to realize that real crimes have been solved with nothing but math
you dont realize that math can prodict things in such a manner as this movie.

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You're failing to realize that it doesn't always work, and when it does it's not as straightforward.. It's like the CSI effect.. You don't just drive up to the scene in a Hummer, pick up a hair, and convict a bad-guy..

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And you do realize that books that reference "pop-culture" stuff are for entertainment too?

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Yes, I do realise that, Crentapa. I tend not to mix up 'TV world' with the 'Real' world. I also don't take things too seriously, including a TV show. I adore N3 but I'm smart enough to realise, being a professional writer myself, that this thing called 'poetic licence' is employed throughout and that yep, lots of it is bunkum. Where's the harm in that? It's a great way to wile away an hour and it's a damn sight more entertaining than some piece of reality crap about a dozy bunch of wannabe models or idiot, has-been celebs eating slugs in a jungle! I have been encouraged to explore more in-depth scientific issues thanks to N3. The only thing reality TV inspires me to do is either throw up or turn off.

GOOGLE: Abbr. God's Own Official Guide to Locating Everything...

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it is absalutely 100% correct and math can account for all of these stuations

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