MovieChat Forums > Flags of Our Fathers (2006) Discussion > I´m sick of the glorifying of the americ...

I´m sick of the glorifying of the american soldiers!


99% of the movies about ww2 is about american and british soldiers. Young people today are taught that ww2 was only won because of the invasion of normandy (which btw only 50% of the troops were american. the rest was English, French, Polish, Dutch, Norwegian, Danish and other soldiers)

Her is a fact for you history lacking americans:

The German army had 300 divisions on the eastern front (that´s Russia btw)
-3 million soldiers fought the red army since july 22nd 1941.

On the western front, the German army had only 50-60 divisions.

FACT.

American and British loss; under 1 million soldiers combined.
German losses; 7 million soldiers.
Russian losses; 17 million soldiers!!!!!

The war was won almost solely due to the red army, with soldiers under a brutal regime, who faced being shot by their own officers if they didn´t advance.

When USA joined the war in late 41, the German invasion of Russia had already stopped outside of Moscow and Leningrad. American soldiers didn´t join the war in europe until 3 years later.

So stop thinking you saved europe! I mean, I really respect the effort you made, as well as the great sacrifices. But stop glorifying it!!!

But I will definately watch red sun, black sand:)

-Norwegian

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Doesn't your country have any film makers that can tell the "true" story?? Your country's lack of creative persons isn't our fault.

Quit your whining already!

Greater losses of life doesn't equate to a greater contribution to the fighting. It does, however, equate to a greater sacrifice.

American fighting forces were well trained and had better tanks, ships, planes, weapons, etc. and DID make a significant difference. They were MORE EFFICIENT, therefore, not as many American lives were lost.

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"American fighting forces were well trained and had better tanks, ships, planes, weapons, etc. and DID make a significant difference. They were MORE EFFICIENT, therefore, not as many American lives were lost. "

Of course that's excepting Kasserine Pass and perhaps Anzio.

Seriously, of course America made a big difference being there - but I think that for the sake of international peace we can acknowledge that everyone did their little bit proportional to their capacity. America's great capacity was initially industrial - the Arsenal of Democracy - and it would be wrong to say that American materiel was unnecessary in keeping Britain and Russia - or even China - alive. I think also that what gets the goat of many non-Americans is the either spoken or implied thought that 'America saved the world' or 'America saved your sorry @$$es'. That's not fair, to America or to anyone else.

Sadly, movies like U-571, Pearl Harbor and (I fear) The Few are/will be helping to fuel that sticky point.

I think it's not the lack of creative persons, it's the lack of a) interest in historical events b) money to fund film productions c) good scripts/scriptwriters. I certainly hope a significant independent film movement internationally can bring more great stories of the past to the screen.

Yes American soldiers were well trained - but training alone does not a great battlefield army make. As I mentioned, Rommel handed the American forces in North Africa a terrible defeat at Kasserine Pass. If not for the experience that the British passed on to Americans - the legendary American Rangers trained at Achnacarry alongside the equally legendary Commandos! - then they would have had to reinvent the wheel.

Americans did NOT have the best tanks of the war. That distinction is almost universally given to the Soviet T-34 tank. It's the Sherman's production numbers+British recovery/repair+German armor and guns rolled into a simple but deadly package. American tanks were never really as good as the German ones - they nicknamed the Shermans 'Ronsons' because they tended to light up like a Ronson Lighter - but they had a lot of them.

American ships at the start of the war were about average - by the end of the war they were war-winning, thanks to superior tactics, superb radar and fire control, excellent guns and shells and the habit of American sailors and pilots not to 'go down with the ship'.

American planes were (initially) generally inferior to other designs particularly in the area of maneuverability. The ludicrous claim by 'Rafe' (Ben Affleck) that "You can't outrun Zeroes, you gotta out maneuver them" is like the Da Vinci Code claiming the Gnostics believed in a 'human Jesus' - the exact reverse is true! American planes did have better survivability and sometimes heavier armament than the Japanese planes.

The big difference is that the rookie American pilot of December 1941 fought and survived as best as he could for the length of his tour of duty and then WENT HOME to train other pilots before returning for another tour. The veteran Japanese pilot of December 1941 fought until he was killed, suicided or had his carrier sunk from under him. This is why there is a steady decline in Japanese pilot quality matched by a steady increase in American pilot quality. By Dec 1944, the situation is reversed - the Japanese are reduced to throwing poor untrained sods as human 'guided missiles' against American carriers while the American pilots have become almost uniformly veteran standard - and with the sheer number of American planes... they don't call it the Marianas Turkey Shoot for nothing.

The American practice of integrating troops somewhat haphazardly into their units was inferior to the German practice of maintaining cadres, forming march units and generally maintaining as much unit integrity as possible. The ability of German formations to fight and take and dish out punishment fighting a losing two front war was incredible and generally German military performance was superb up to December 1944.

I suppose there are those who feel that without the advantage of air/naval gunfire or seemingly limitless supply the American soldier is inferior to the British or German or Soviet soldier. I tend to disagree on the basis of actions such as Bastogne and Patton's dash to the Rhine. Well trained, well led and allowed time to build up experience, American soldiers performed at least as well as those of other countries. However, the fact that American military doctrine places - or seems to place - a premium on maneuver, casualty reduction, technological advantage and, at times, letting someone else do the 'dirty work' has led to a questioning of the qualities of the American fighting man. It's not true I believe but sometimes it does look like that in the minds of some.

Yes it is efficient and 'smart' warfare and I think the character of the American national psyche dictates this. It doesn't mean that the American soldier is worse than others, it's just that he fights SMARTER than many others and has generally better support and logistics than a lot of others.

My humble two cents,
Tom516

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Like it or not, a significant part of the reason the USSR lost so many lives was the "human wave" tactics they employed - one thing "Enemy at the Gates" portrayed fairly well. They would have the entire massed unit of soldiers rush headlong at the German lines - which would have worked were it not for the German's squad level use of the machine gun.

Sheer numbers lost does not necessarily equal contribution. The (relatively) minor death toll of the American forces comes in no small part because they were very good at not getting killed. We certainly did not win the war singlehandedly. We did, however, save the USSR from collapse by building up her outmatched army via Lend-Lease, before we even entered the war. We then relieved some of the pressure on Stalin's forces by invading and conquering Italy, then invading France. Stalin himself begged Roosevelt for a second front. And that's just in Europe. The USSR entered the war against Japan AFTER the first atomic bomb was dropped, then made themselves medals for victory in the "War against Japan".

Without the USSR, we could not have defeated Hitler. But without us, neither could they. We entered the war in Europe without any serious defensive interest. we weren't about to be crushed under the Nazi boot. So we have a right to be proud of what our boys did. American films are generally made about Americans, since they make the most money. We want to see what our Grandfathers did in the War.

If you still don't like it, get your own film industry.

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[deleted]

Is Iwo Jima in Europe? I didn't realize Norwegians were helping the Japanese in the Pacific War..What does your post have to do with American Marines and Navy taking Iwo and the U S Government using the survivors of the most re-printed photograph in military history to raise money to continue with the war effort? Starting arguments about WW2 on IMDB is not the place. This movie is based on a true story and it has nothing to do with Europe. Go feed your reindeer...

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Don't expect a film about the Battle of Iwo Jima to be about Polish, Dutch, Norwgian, etc. soldiers.

Dark Blue World: Czech film about Czech pilots in the UK
Brotherhood of War: Korean film about Koreans in the Korean War
Stalingrad: German film about German soldiers in the USSR
Flags of Our Fathers: American film about American soldiers in the Pacific

I liked this movie, and can't wait to see the second film, told from the Japanese perspective.

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American movies are told from American perspective. British movies are told from British persective. German movies from a German perspective. and so on and so on and so on.

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Just saw this movie. Great movie. Glorifying US soldiers? not quite. He shows how the media and others turn normal soldiers into heroes in order to raise money and morale. it shows the inhumanity of war and how human soldiers are when it comes down to killing someone else. this movie was made by americans for americans. maybe thats why it was about americans. they really werent glorified. they were shown doing what they actually do.
perhaps you can pack up your anti-american mentality, go see the film and then post on here about what the movie is about.
those were great statistics that you gave out, but numbers dont tell the whole story. im not sure what country you are from but the USA had a pretty overwhelming effect on the war. its a fad right now to downplay every single thing that the USA has ever done. so i understand where you're coming from.
most american war movies dont glamorize american soldiers. they are typicaly anti-war movies. they preach about the attrocities of war, the violence, the ongoing affects it has on those in it, etc. if anything im sick of every war movie trying to tell us that war is never the answer, when regrettably it all too often is.

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You're right Timbates, it is just a fad/trend of downplaying everything the USA does. Also it's remarkable how much the WW2 generation is worshipped, yet the men and women if that generation describe themselves as normal people who had a very unpleasant job to do, and anyone in their circumstances would have done the same.

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I notice no one cares about Canada's contributions. Besides of being one of Britain's most loyal allies, we were the only country with the soldiers achieving their mission objectives on D-Day with the storming of Juno Beach, the second most heavily defended beach.

And I just watched FOUF. It was great, but it committed the crime of dragging near the end. However, he was able to wrap it up very well, and the swimming in the water was lovely. 8/10 from moi.

My favorite war movie is still Casablanca.

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Wow, everyone is making so much sense on this thread lately. It's kind of boring...

No it's not. It's very gratifying, actually.

And yes, people care about the Canadian contribution. Right off the top of my head, CAPTAIN OF THE CLOUDS with James Cagney and SQUADRON 633 (Hope I got that title right) with Cliff Robertson come to mind, but I'm pretty confident there are other WWII films with Canadians in them. But if you're starting to feel down about it, just remember...

Captain Kirk was really a Canadian.

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[deleted]

Yeah, I bought Doohan's bio years ago. You should read it. Some good WWII stories in there. But definitely not a Shatner fan.

Hey, can anybody else come up with some WWII films about Canadians?

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[deleted]

Does the 17 million count all the people Stalin killed? Or is that a separate number?

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Most historical figures put the Soviet toll at
27-30 million dead total
20 million(!) of which were civilians

And that's just during the war, not counting the Ukrainian famine in 1932-33 and the purges in 1937-38.

As for Canadians being overlooked, that same thing happens in Oceania, with New Zealanders being overlooked by Australians.

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Hey, can anybody else come up with some WWII films about Canadians?

Oh, yes!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033627/




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Though I doubt an American film would glorify anyone but the British and our own soldiers I would like to see a film along the lines of "All's Quiet on the Western Front." I mean the idea you get from most of the WWII movies are that all Germans were Nazi's (when most of them weren't) and the Red Army has always been protrayed as an unruly group of communists. Were they unruly...sometimes...yes, but they suffered just as much as anyone else fighting even more in many respects. Since the Cold War is over, I would really like to see something more than "Enemy at the Gates" dealing with the Russians. The battles on the Eastern Front were just as savage as Normandy, just a burtual as Iwo Jima. Also, aside from "Band of Brothers" I haven't seen to many recent movies on different operations durning the war. Why not a good movie about Midway? Why not something on Dunkurk? Why not something about Hiroshima? Heck, Kasserine Pass, the first American fight against the Germans in WWII. Why not show a battle in which we got stomped on instead of always showing us marching to victory? How about a movie on the Korean War? Well, showing something to the American popluation that doesn't show us as better than everyone else probably wouldn't sell many tickets so there goes the Kasserine Pass...and since Korea in the end was not a sweeping victory rather a stalemate...I don't think there will be many movies on that either...oh well...

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i agree. pathetic movie. 1/10. i wasted 2 hours of my life -_-

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[deleted]

uh, weren't the Canadians in charge of a whole beach in D-Day? strange you don't mention them

and yes, I'm sick about it too, but what can you do? your own WWII motion picture? that'd be nice, but is next to impossible. besides, when a US company or director makes a war movie, the flag is going to be there somewhere. not news to me or anybody. enojoy this movies for what they are (like BHD). entertainment, and a good effort to try and make you feel like part of the battle. for history lessons, go to the library.

Hey, Mr. President! I campaigned for the other guy, but I voted for you!

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Hey idiot, the red Army was being supplied by America long before we got into the war. Read Martin Gilbers book on World War 2, simply titled "The Second World War" for it is YOU sho is lacking in history. Both Russia and England received ammunition, airplanes and artilary, ships and even linen cloth measuring in TONS, for bandages. The Russians had the advantage of knowing how to live in harsh winters and thus their boots and other clothing were tailor made for that. The Germans made the error of thinking Russia would be a quick defeat. Thus as the war on the Russian front pushed into winter, that hurt the Germans bad. Yet the Germans were better prepared as far as weapons were concerned. We helped the Russians via our assistance, thus leaving less of their troops to have to resort to hand to hand combat as many had been doing so.

The fact is that before America involvement, both Russia and England were hurting bad. We turned the tide. So yes we were not the only country responsible for winning WW2, but without us it may never have been won in the first place. Without the United States, Germany could very well have beat Russia. Your list of the number of Russians that died is proof of that. Many other countries deserve respect for the defeat of Nazi Germany in WW2. Yet most movies about it do portray it from a US point of view because THEY ARE MADE IN THE US. We tell the stories of our nation and our people, just like other nations do. In fact I'd say we cover our bases better than other countries when it comes to making movies about the histories of countrier OTHER than our own.

I will stop thinking we saved Europe the day you prove that the path the war was going down prior to our involvment would have led to the same end if we never did get involved. You can't do that because you know that while America was not the only reason for victory for the Allies, we were the final nail in coffin for the Axis.

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