one glaring plot hole...
"We have a rat. From the state police"
Ummm could it be the NEW guy? You know.... the one who was in the State Police??
Hmm ... yup, that checks out as kind of glaring
share
MovieChat Forums > The Departed (2006) Discussion > one glaring plot hole...
When was this said and who was it said to? I ask because there was a point when Collin verifies that it's NOT Billy. Just curious, been awhile but the timing of the comment might be a factor into whether or not they suspected him
~~~"Who do you think you're dealing with? Guess again."~~~
As far as anyone besides Dignam and Queenan (and later Sullivan) knew, Billy was never actually in the State Police. His story was that he flunked out of the academy (and therefore never graduated) before being sent to prison for assault. Costello even makes a point of repeatedly testing Billy about it - first when he smashes Billy's injured hand with a shoe while asking if he was a cop, then he directly asks Billy (at gunpoint) if he's a rat, then he deliberately gives him some misinformation and calls up Sullivan asking if it's come back to the police. It's only after that final one that he seems convinced that Billy isn't the rat. Plus, it's deliberately kept ambiguous whether or not Billy's the only rat in Costello's gang - if he's not and Delahunt was also a cop, then the leaks had been happening since long before Billy showed up so Costello has no reason to truly suspect Billy of anything. Also it's worth remembering that Billy had the family connections on his side too.
sharetrue - for example, the police know about the microprocessors before Billy's even managed to get in with Costello, so that must have been coming from somewhere/someone else.
shareThey weren't sure. Though it does bother me he was able to keep his fatherly like relationship with Costello a secret for so long. It seems like someone would notice him meeting with him at some point.
sharethat's something I'd never thought of. In the original, the crime boss has several younger, presumably minor members of his gang (Andrew Lau's character being one of them) join the police force at the same time, so there's not the seeming exclusive father-like relationship with any of them.
If major crimes had been on Costello's case for years its funny they didn't recognise golden boy staff sgt Sullivan as one of Costello's contacts.
Now thinking of it, though, after becoming a cop he sees him in person less often. So there's that at least.
shareSome people have theorized that Costello subconsciously (or consciously) knew that Billy was the rat, but didn’t care. As Costello was himself a rat anyway. He was more concerned about being a father figure towards Billy. In his mind, “when you’re facing a loaded gun, what’s the difference,” a cop and criminal are two sides of the same coin. Costello felt that Billy would never betray him, and he was right, Sullivan is the one who ultimately does.
shareWhy wouldn't Colin also be investigated when he was investigating everyone? Ellerby seemed a bit cynical and lazy as a cop, but surely it would be best to be thorough.
I also wondered how someone as hotheaded as Dignam would fare as an undercover - and why he was so hostile towards Billy, who was, after all, working for him.
And why there was no contingency in case Dignam and Queenan both died/quit/were away (as happened).
And why Billy didn't just leave the envelope, get his payout, keep his identity and THEN finger Colin.
Why wouldn't Colin also be investigated when he was investigating everyone? Ellerby seemed a bit cynical and lazy as a cop, but surely it would be best to be thorough.
I also wondered how someone as hotheaded as Dignam would fare as an undercover - and why he was so hostile towards Billy, who was, after all, working for him.
And why there was no contingency in case Dignam and Queenan both died/quit/were away (as happened).
And why Billy didn't just leave the envelope, get his payout, keep his identity and THEN finger Colin.
Maybe Costello thought that with Billy's connections via family, he was more trustworthy than Colin. As you said, though, he was erratic, and probably figured his protection would save him.
SPOILERS BELOW
Deadthread, but I'll answer anyway.
There are a few possibilities I'll toss out here. Oh, and SPOILERS!
First is that, given the FBI connection, Costello either knew who the rat was and was just playing games, or he didn't really care since he had immunity anyway.
Second is Costello's own "insurance policy" - Sullivan - made him a bit sluggish. He had this blind spot. "It couldn't be this guy, because otherwise my inside guy would've informed me of him." He was too reliant on Sullivan.
Third is the alibis the cops built up for Costigan worked. Costigan did actual time, and combined with his family (he's a good kid!) and other elements, he seemed okay to Costello. This would combine with Costello's paranoia of his crew. I bet he can think of several of his associates who would want him dead. He can think of a million times somebody's been stabbed in the back by their closest friends. He's second-guessing himself a million times over.
I was asking more about Colin Sullivan in terms of the police investigation. Everyone should've been investiaged and the too-complacent Ellerby would've been the obvious choice. Colin was lucky that Ellerby was so trusting - as was Costello with Bill but as you say there are reasons for this. Any ideas about my other questions? :)
shareIn the OP, I thought it was more referring to Billy in the mob than Colin with the cops.
Colin is in charge of the outfit, so maybe they vetted him already and thought he was good. How they vetted him without finding out the connection to Costello is a mystery, but that'd be my guess. He rises up in the ranks, gets the assignment, and they've already cleared him - even if they shouldn't have.
After that, the unit is investigating cops, but because Colin's in charge, he's got them chasing their tails.
I think it's implied that Dignam was suspicious of Colin, although he didn't have actionable proof until the end. As to why the man fights with everybody, I don't know. Maybe he was Queenan's "bad cop". I don't think he was undercover himself, I got the impression he was running agents, but not actually one of them. Maybe I'm just forgetting that part.
There was no contingency because Dignam AND Queenan never should have been away/dead. It happened, but it wasn't anticipated. Queenan, in particular, was only dispatched because of strange circumstances; he never should have been in the field like that. He was, but that couldn't have been anticipated. He was a boss, an office guy.
The reason Costigan executed his plan as he did was because his identity was known to almost no one. Queenan was dead, Dignam wasn't around, and until the scene in the office, Billy didn't know about Sullivan. He sends the envelope to Madolyn as a backup, then tries to arrest Sullivan with help from a friend. Now, that plan works up until a second rat shows up, so it wasn't a bad plan, especially since Costigan couldn't have known there was another rat; he thought he had the spy, so why would backup the backup? There are only so many redundant "who watches the watchmen" schemes he could employ before making the plan unworkable.
Now, maybe he should have gone to ground until he could find Dignam, but again, he had redundancies and thought he was safe with Sullivan under arrest.
That's a pretty good analysis. I agree. It's not like he could plan for every possibility, like a second rat being out there that even Sullivan didn't know about.
shareI have to admit the 2nd rat aspect felt forced. It doesn't help it was just some random guy Colin hung out with at the beginning of the film.
shareIt also just reinforces how twisted this world is. Cops and robbers aren't distinct. Even Costello wasn't what he appeared!
Of course, Costello also warned us. "When you're facing a loaded gun...what's the difference?"
Thanks - interesting discussion. Agree re Costigan's final plan (which did work insofar as he exposed Colin posthumously: interesting that Colin gave Costigan the posthumous recognition he deserved and arguably Costigan ensured Colin would get what HE deserved...Just as well Madolyn was a good person (she might have done the Kay Corleone/Godfather thing and just lived with her husband despite her knowledge).
Dignam is said to have done "extensive" undercover work by Alec Baldwin's character when the latter is introducing him to the squad (before their foulmouthed macho banter). How such a hothead could have coped with the pressure that undercover work would entail is an interesting question (maybe he'd been bottling it up for years and his manner was his way of letting it all out...). He didn't seem to be doing undercover work now, agreed.
I know Colin was thought to be the golden child, but still, even Queenan (who seemed pure as the driven snow) could be tailed without anyone questioning it.
Dignam seemed to dislike Colin instantly on general principle - maybe suspicious of his fair-haired child status - and when he's not fighting with Billy, Dignam does at times reveal a grudging respect for the guy (SATS, "We need you pal").
I agree re Queenan and Dignam would not be expected to both be away but still, they ARE both cops, a dangerous line of work. And after Dignam walks out, there's only Queenan. Poor Costigan - the joys of being a pawn of the bureaucracy.
Costigan probably wouldn't have suspected Madolyn either way (he was clearly infatuated - that's some cloudy judgement), but I don't think it was ever a risk. Madolyn was too tough and gutsy to compromise on the level of Kay (I'm not knocking Kay Corleone's character - I'm just saying Madolyn wouldn't have gone along as far as Kay).
I forgot the extensive undercover line from Baldwin. I think you're right. Dignam's finished his undercover tenure and now he's never keeping another thing secret ever again. If he thinks somebody's a c-word, he calls them the c-word. He also might be capable of great restraint when called for but he just doesn't bother when he doesn't have to. A lot of bombastic actors are shy and retiring in person. Maybe Dignam is crafty and secretive on the job, but not in his "real" life. Or maybe the hotheadedness is itself an act? He's playing this lunatic while evaluating people - disarming them. That way, he can get the drop on people who might not suspect him of intellect or guile.
You're right there: there's a clear difference in his loathing of Colin and his fighting with Billy.
They maybe should have put somebody else on the case after Dignam walked out, but who are they going to get? They don't trust anybody. What if they pick the guy who's the rat? What if they're filling somebody in on Billy and, even if he's not the rat, it gets out that Queenan is up to something and the rat figures it out?
I don't have all the answers, but I feel like it's partly because I haven't seen the film in awhile and don't remember. It seems to me like there is purpose behind most of this.
I agree Madolyn was unlikely to compromise like Kay, just a possibility to raise - I guess as someone used to working with police and ex-cons, she would have an interest in keeping the system clean ("sometimes people do get better"). She was, as you say, tough and gutsy and it seemed like Costigan recognised this (and of course didn't know about Colin) and respected her for it as well as falling for her. He needed to be able to trust somebody and with Queenan gone there weren't a lot of options.
Both he and Colin seemed to be quite alone: we don't hear anything as far as I recall about Colin's family, only surrogate "father" Costello. And as we know, Costello trusted Billy more than Colin. Billy's only other family we see is his aunt and cousin (and the latter is bad news, especially for someone raised to be honest).
Interesting re Dignam - yeah, in his new role he can just let rip,as you say, often for strategic purposes. Though picking a fight in public with Costigan probably goes a bit too far.
Agree re the rat problem. You would likely need to get someone completely from outside to try to sort through things, and that would take a lot of time to organise and get them up to speed, and would be obvious.
Am I being too harsh in judging Alec Baldwin's character as complacent and overly cynical about the job? He has little confidence in the police's ability to stop Costello ("marginally disrupt", ha ha). He certainly doesn't seem to be unduly concerned about the rat: even when Colin asks about the files and Baldwin refuses to give them to him )"You WANT those files"), it doesn't seem to raise the faintest suspicion about Colin in him. I don't think he's necessarily corrupt, but he doesn't seem terribly effectual.
What do you think about the speculation about Frank molesting Colin and/or Colin being gay/unable to conceive and/or the implication Madolyn's baby might be Billy's not Colin's? The last would seem to be a reasonable inference.
I think Madolyn's badass-ness and that toughness is part of why Costigan fell in love with her.
I'd never thought about Colin and Billy's kinda parallel lack of on-screen family. We do see some of Colin's near the beginning, though. No fathers... there might be something to the idea that Costello is surrogate-fathering Colin while Queenan is "pseudo-pop" for Billy.
Point well-taken. Dignam clearly isn't just acting hotheaded if he's willing to get physical with Billy in public. The likeliest explanation for Dignam is that he is naturally angry and impulsive, tamped it down long enough to get some crackerjack UC stuff done, and now it's back plus extra from years of repression. In The Departed's specific time-frame, we're also probably seeing him extra-stressed because they're *so close* to nailing Costello to the wall and he wants that bad, but the wait is killing him.
Honestly? I don't have much of a "take" on Baldwin's character at all. He was kinda "there". Aside from "I get to work with Martin Scorsese!" I'm not sure why Baldwin needed to be there (although he does a great job). Your analysis seems mostly on the ball, though. We're looking at an average-grade cop at a desk level who's old enough to not want to go all-out. He's got nothing to prove, so he's kinda coasting. Not that he's phoning it in or being sloppy, but just that he's not putting in a lot of nights/weekends.
I don't think Frank molested Colin. He doesn't show homosexual or paedophilic tendencies throughout the rest of the film (unless I'm forgetting something). Conversely, we do see him lusting after grown women. Absent of any further proof, I don't think he molested Colin. I think he groomed him to be a gangster. He also buys Colin's sister makeup, right? That might be a more likely outlet for his perversions.
Colin being gay or impotent makes sense to me. We know he has trouble getting the job done at all. That said, he does pretty tenaciously go after Madolyn. That could be a big smokescreen or maybe he thinks he needs a wife to advance in the ranks (it's a political move) but if the latter were true, would he pick Madolyn? She's too feisty. He'd be more likely to get a much more demure lady, or a plotting Lady Macbeth type. Not Madolyn. It's still possible that he's closeted to himself, too, though, and that's why he's furiously romancing the first attractive woman he sees at the station.
I am 99% positive that baby is Billy's. Oh, and it's a much better ending if it is.
Agree re Madolyn/Costigan - he liked she wasn't a BSer.
There does seem to be a bit of surrogate-fathering going with Costello - though he's ultimately more paternal with Bill than Colin. He tells Bill he should wise up and go back to school (perhaps a lingering indication of his respect for Bill's father, who wasn't a crook) but with Colin, he's happy just to use him for dirty work (and keep him in the dark about things).
Agree re Dignam. He and Queenan certainly make a good cop/bad cop duo!
Agree re the Baldwin character. I guess he was another kind of cop to see besides the dedicated, the crooked and the hotheaded.
I didn't get the impression Costello molested Colin either, it's a theory that some have proposed. Costello didn't seem to really love anyone (Billy in a fatherly sort of way perhaps).
Colin seems at times to be protesting too much sexually - making a show of wolfwhistling at the woman in the office when his friend is watching, going on about how the firemen footballers are "a bunch of homos". I think he took Baldwin's advice re marriage helping career. Maybe Madolyn seemed convenient and a challenge ( he's conning people anyway, why not try it with her? She's nearby, she's good looking and bright and like him has to keep secrets, she's a "catch") though it's interesting he doesn't want her stuff in their apartment (for her safety in case Frank and the boys pop around? for his if word gets out about what she does working with police - too close for comfort?).
He might be closeted even to himself, of course, as you say. We do know had trouble performing sexually with Madolyn which might also be a sign of the stress he's under: Billy, otoh is more obviously stressed out but seems to have no problem having sex with her. And I agree, Billy is very probably the baby's father. At least Madolyn has a decent job to help support herself and the baby (I wonder if she had a life insurance policy on Colin...).
I always forget the father-son thing that Costello gets going with Billy. I guess because Colin is more "aligned" with Costello I think of that one, but not Billy. Ironic, isn't it, that Costello thinks he's having Bill betray his real father (who would've hated Billy being a gangster) and in fact it's the surrogate father who is being betrayed.
Queenan might have selected Dignam for that good cop/bad cop dynamic.
Baldwin rounds out the force, yeah. This movie shows us all kinds. Some of them are the ones that did their jobs, and some are the other guys. (That's (paraphrased) one of my favourite lines in the movie).
Yeah, Costello and love didn't seem to mix - certainly not in a romantic sense. Although he does have that regular girlfriend/wife hanging around. Why is that, do you think? What are his feelings there? Costello isn't sentimental. Is it just an Irish-Catholic thing where he was "supposed" to get married, so he did, and now he just won't leave (because who needs the aggravation?)
I agree. Colin's protesting a little too much. I forgot Baldwin gave him that advice (see how little I remember him in this?) Yeah, I'm pretty much convinced Colin's gay. And, yes, I think he's mostly closeted to himself. I think he gets the impulse and then feels guilt and tamps it down.
Devil's advocate, though, stress can manifest different ways, so Colin might shut down (sexually) under pressure while Billy might actually get hornier.
I don't know if Madolyn had life insurance on Colin. They weren't actually married, though, were they? She'd be more likely to if they were. I have a feeling that's the kind of thing she'd bring up and Colin'd drag his feet on, though.
Yeah, there are lots of interesting doublings, parallels, ironies etc in the film when you think of it.
Costello had two women with him at the opera (and maybe afterwards, who knows?). Maybe with women, drugs, opera, whatever, he just enjoys what he can get. He seems kind of blase about things: I guess when he's reached the level of (criminal) success he has and can basically have or do whatever he wants, he might be a wee bit bored with life. Costigan at least gives him a protege, a reminder of the past and someone to talk to (French is a companion of sorts, but more of a work associate).
The "is Colin gay?" questions is an interesting one to discuss. Or stressed, or at some level guilt-ridden...he does give Costigan, in a roundabout way, due credit at the end for his service even if it's to save his own skin - he did a good thing for a bad reason. If only Costigan had left that envelope where it was...
I agree Colin and Billy might have different sexual reactions to pressure (and perhaps to Madolyn).
I don't recall there being a marriage in the film between Colin and Madolyn (not such a good Catholic then?). I suspect if she brought up the idea of insurance or he found out, it would make him even more paranoid.
So - was the gang member who didn't give up Billy before he died an undercover federal agent or a regretful gangster who didn't want his last act to be ratting out Bill?
I lost track of Costello's women. I know there was one who seems to live with him and I remember a couple hookers. This is probably linked to why Colin doesn't want Madolyn and Costello to bump into each other even peripherally. Not only would Madolyn flip a gasket, but Costello might start trying to grind up on her!
Costello thinking of *himself* as a kind of father to Billy really expands a couple crucial plot points. Most notably, I'm thinking about the "in the old days, I'd kill everybody" scene where he's talking to Billy about sniffing out the rat (Billy himself). Why not just wipe them out? He's old and tired? Maybe. He's an informant and knows he can't? Mmm... perhaps. But if he thinks of Billy as a son, he'd never countenance that he's the rat, and he certainly wouldn't want him as collateral damage in a "scorched earth" campaign.
I think most Catholics aren't necessarily "good Catholics" in that sense; a lot of 'em seem to do stuff like sleep around and hit the confessional later. There's a lot of guilt, but they still go for those animal impulses! I mean, being a gangland rat in the police department isn't exactly something Jesus would've endorsed, either (then again, neither was the Inquisition or shuffling molester priests around, but the Catholic Church did those, so...)
Ah, the gangster. I don't think he was an informant. I think he just didn't want to betray somebody. I think it's as you say: he didn't want to be a tattletale. I think it makes him a far more interesting character.
Yes, Frank certainly had a bunch of women.
Interesting comment by Colin in his final confrontation with Costello to the effect of "is that what all this is about - all those women and no kids?" I wonder if Frank has a sexual problem too...or if Colin just feels like the rejected son (one more reason apart from self-preservation to kill Frank).
Colin might be afraid that shacking up with a police shrink is not a good look to Frank...dangerous for both him and Madolyn. Still, if Frank is the "co-signer" of the apartment (who else would it be?), presumably he could pop around any time.
I can't recall anything about Costello being a non-starter with women, but maybe shooting blanks?
Madolyn could've been co-signer, but it's waaaay more likely that it's Frank. He's the type of crazy dude to just show up randomly, too. I imagine Colin might just walk in and find Frank stretched out on the bed, doing blow or looking at porno or something.