Wouldn't a reluctance to do murder be a red flag that a guy's a cop? - The Departed (2006) Discussion

[–] hero-de-celluloid 9 years ago

Delahunt didn't kill anyone either and many believe he was the second cop in the gang (disputable). But even with that I don't know if gangs of this nature require people to kill. I'm sure there are people who benefit the gang in many ways that don't involve killing - which is why they are accepted.

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[–] evanmang87 9 years ago

It's been awhile since I have seen "The Departed" but I have seen the film in it's entirety several times since it was released and I don't recall a scene in which Delahunt ever revealed that he never committed murder.

But given that Kevin Weeks, one of the core members of Bulger's crew, (probably) never personally killed anyone for Bulger, committing a hit/murder is not necessarily required for "membership." Membership has always been a much looser term with Irish-American gangs anyway devoid of the pageantry and status of the "made men" in the Italian mafia. Costello also had moments where he made it clear he didn't want Costigan in his crew because he felt he should be doing other things.

What is more unrealistic is that Costello knows there is a mole in his inner circle and while he initially questions Costigan showing up in South Boston out of nowhere, he pretty quickly seems to let it go. Even if he thought Costigan wasn't, there had to be some nagging doubt and as the pressure came down, it would make sense to kill Costigan to be on the safe side. It wasn't like Costigan was so indispensable to the operation. Also, the scene where Costigan tries to show how hard and authentic he is by threatening to kill Costello would have been there last meeting together in real life.

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[–] hero-de-celluloid 9 years ago

I don't recall a scene in which Delahunt ever revealed that he never committed murder.

On his death bed Delahunt says:

I've done a lot of bad
things but I've never been a
murderer.

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[–] Degree7 9 years ago

Even if he thought Costigan wasn't, there had to be some nagging doubt and as the pressure came down, it would make sense to kill Costigan to be on the safe side. It wasn't like Costigan was so indispensable to the operation

Yeah, but Costello knew Billy's family, and French even said "your grandmother was so nice to me." I think he felt very protective of Billy in a way, even though he probably contemplated whacking him, but Costello saw him as a surrogate-son a bit like Sullivan. The ironic thing is that it was Sullivan who betrays Costello and causes his downfall. Besides, Costello is an FBI informant, he's got his ass covered as far as he's concerned.

~ I'm a 21st century man and I don't wanna be here.

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[–] amcalabrese-1 8 years ago

Those are good points. Keep in mind even the Mafia generally is not a collection of killers but a collection of thieves. And in the Mafia, the "make your bones" to get made requirement really only was instituted following Joe Pistone's infiltration. And even then it is supposedly honored in the breach -- if you are a good earner they overlook the lack of murder.

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[–] wlan 9 years ago

Delahunt killed Queenan with other gang members

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] del86 9 years ago

But he was part of the group that killed Queenan. Of course, he couldn't stop them without revealing his policeman status.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] evanmang87 9 years ago

"Of course, he couldn't stop them without revealing his policeman status."

Given that under covers are not allowed to stand by and witness, let alone directly participate in, the murder of other criminals, I would think that rule would apply even more so to the killing of civilians and especially the killing of police officers. They are supposed to stay in character but not to that extreme. The whole point of sending in an undercover is to get a high ranking member explicitly instructing them to commit crimes, such as a murder, and then nailing them. If a cop killed someone while undercover, especially a fellow officer, with the excuse that, "I didn't want to blow my cover", he'd be doing time alongside the gangsters. They don't send undercovers in with the goal of them being so ensconced in the gang that they're doing hits and killing people...

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[–] NikolajCostas1005 9 years ago

I agree. I don't know much about undercover cops but I'd imagine killing people or participating in the murder or civilians / cops isn't encouraged.

Their whole undercover operation seemed strange and pointless to me after the microprocessor failure. If Billy witnessed Queenan being killed, it seems to me the first thing he would do is notify Dignam. They should have done something, but it seems like the whole operation was asleep or forgotten about by then. I suppose they were holding out for something bigger with Costello at that point, but it still seems strange that Billy could witness the murder of a cop and have nothing.

See you in hell, candy boys!

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[–] gary_w_trott 9 years ago

Unless Delahunt wanted to join Queenan in his dive off of the building there really wasn't much that he could do about the situation.

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[–] The-Social-Introvert 8 years ago

LOL

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[–] hero-de-celluloid 9 years ago

Ok - so i rewatched Delahunts death bed - (which was an extended version) and after hearing it again - when he said he never killed anyone - i sounds like he was referring to prior to the roof job - so I stand corrected. That was one of my main reasons - so with this in mind - I will tend to go with the non-cop theory.

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[–] glewis222 8 years ago

what extended version?

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[–] hero-de-celluloid 8 years ago

Extended version isn't the right term - there were some scenes that didn't make it in the film which extended the scene of Delehunt's death scene. Scorsese talks about it in depth and even talks about how being a cop is a way to look at it. He never states either way. He could have said he wasn't a cop or he was a cop - but left it up to the audience. If you youtube or google delehunt's death scene / scorsese you should find it. Very interesting.

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[–] DjokerFan 8 years ago

Ok - so i rewatched Delahunts death bed - (which was an extended version) and after hearing it again - when he said he never killed anyone - i sounds like he was referring to prior to the roof job - so I stand corrected.

No, you were right the first time. He says he never killed anyone right before he tells Bill that he accidentally sent him to the wrong address which was right before he succumbed to his injuries. All the while clutching the hole in his chest from the bullet he took in the shootout which was after the roof job.

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[–] hero-de-celluloid 8 years ago

So by saying he never killed anyone - is that also referring to the Captain - is he saying that he wasn't involved in the actual murder of the Captain - in your opinion - or is referring to murders prior to that. BTW - I thought it was a great scene that should have made it in the movie.

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[–] DjokerFan 8 years ago

That part is up for debate, what isn't up for debate is that the entire scene happened after Queenan fell to his death.

Yes he is saying he wasn't involved in murdering Queenan, and I don't agree with him. Perhaps that has something to do with why that part of the scene was deleted. It didn't make any sense for a guy who played 1/5 of a role in Queenan's murder to claim that he has never murdered anybody.

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[–] hero-de-celluloid 8 years ago

Yes he is saying he wasn't involved in murdering Queenan, and I don't agree with him.

He was "there" so maybe he knows more (theoretically). Maybe he didn't feel like he played 1/5 of his murder. Perhaps he felt he helped defuse the situation by taking the captain's gun and prevented a shoot out - and when he found out that they killed the captain (as he went to look for the rat) he was pissed/surprised because they weren't supposed to do that. (already discussed).

It didn't make any sense for a guy who played 1/5 of a role in Queenan's murder to claim that he has never murdered anybody.

It makes scene if you change your view of the situation.

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[–] DjokerFan 8 years ago

He was "there" so maybe he knows more (theoretically). Maybe he didn't feel like he played 1/5 of his murder. Perhaps he felt he helped defuse the situation by taking the captain's gun and prevented a shoot out - and when he found out that they killed the captain (as he went to look for the rat) he was pissed/surprised because they weren't supposed to do that. (already discussed).

If he had immediately left the scene to go look for Costigan while the other 4 guys went and murdered Queenan, then yeah he wouldn't have had any involvement. But that's not what happened. Instead he moved towards Queenan and took away his gun, thereby taking away whatever little hope Queenan had of possibly surviving. Did it ever occur to Delahunt that maybe Queenan wanted the opportunity to get into a shootout instead of being helplessly dragged to his death unarmed? That maybe if Queenan drew his gun and died in the line of fire he would have died with a little more dignity than what actually happened? He was denied of that opportunity by Delahunt.

There is ZERO evidence that Delahunt made any attempt to go find Costigan. If he did, Costigan wasn't that hard to find because he was right outside the building, kneeling over the late Captain checking his pulse and being the only man in that scene who was truly pissed/surprised.

It makes scene if you change your view of the situation.

Okay, let's say for argument's sake that I agreed with everything you said, that Delahunt took Queenan's gun to "defuse the situation" and then left to look for Costigan and none of this makes him in any way guilty of Queenan's murder. Then Delahunt is still an attempted murderer anyway for going to look for Costigan. When Delahunt called Costigan and told him they were going to take out the rat, he sure as hell didn't mean that they were just going to f!@# him up real good. Murdering a rat is murder nonetheless.

It's a moot point anyway because nobody went to look for Costigan, which is the only reason Costigan survived the whole incident. They were too busy f!@#ing up and murdering Queenan because of his smartass "he's studying law at Notre Dame" answer.

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[–] hero-de-celluloid 8 years ago

Then Delahunt is still an attempted murderer anyway for going to look for Costigan. When Delahunt called Costigan and told him they were going to take out the rat, he sure as hell didn't mean that they were just going to f!@# him up real good. Murdering a rat is murder nonetheless.

That's not how it works. Especially for an undercover. Delahunt was an undercover in a gang of murderers. He obviously is going to have knowledge of serious crimes and he also has an obligation not to murder anyone and stop it if he can. Just because someone tries to look for someone (even if the rest of the gang wants to kill them) does not mean by any means he is an attempted murderer - not in the law's eyes and not IMO. Again Delahunt could have taken actions to prevent the murder when they found him. He could have steered them away from Costigan so he got away. Who knows? But I do know the actions of trying to find him do not constitute attempted murder.

It's a moot point anyway because nobody went to look for Costigan, which is the only reason Costigan survived the whole incident.

We don't know that.

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[–] DjokerFan 8 years ago

That's not how it works. Especially for an undercover. Delahunt was an undercover in a gang of murderers. He obviously is going to have knowledge of serious crimes and he also has an obligation not to murder anyone and stop it if he can. Just because someone tries to look for someone (even if the rest of the gang wants to kill them) does not mean by any means he is an attempted murderer - not in the law's eyes and not IMO.

When you initially claimed that he doesn't feel like he played 1/5 of a role in the murder, it seemed that you were entertaining the idea that maybe he wasn't a cop, but however wasn't a murderer either. Now you're reverting back to the claim that he was a cop to make the argument that he didn't murder anyone. The undercover debate is in the other thread, I'm not debating that in two threads. If you want to make a new argument that in the event that he might have been a criminal he still did not murder anyone, I will listen to and argue that, and not hold it against you in the other thread that you're considering the possibility that he wasn't a cop.

Again Delahunt could have taken actions to prevent the murder when they found him. He could have steered them away from Costigan so he got away.

Yes, that's exactly what he did. He steered them away from Costigan by keeping them so focused on dragging Queenan to the edge of the building so that Costigan could get away. Either way someone was murdered.

But I do know the actions of trying to find him do not constitute attempted murder.

If Delahunt ran down the same fire escape that Costigan ran down with 2 guns in his possession and the intent of shooting Costigan dead, it's not attempted murder if Costigan gets away? Agree to disagree.

We don't know that.

Sure we do. There were 5 guys involved in the harassment of Queenan. Had they given any bother to keeping their eye on the ball, they could have left one guy with Queenan while the other four went after Costigan. I don't know the whole layout of 344 Washington St., but I'm sure four guys could have given plenty of effort in leaving no stone unturned in the search for Costigan (send one guy directly after him on the fire escape, send another guy out the main exit to intercept him once he got to the ground, one guy goes upstairs checking every hiding spot on the way, another guy goes downstairs doing the same thing).

Now since that didn't happen, let's go back to what actually happened in the movie, which was that Costigan left the fire escape with enough of a comfort level to calmly walk towards the front of the building where Queenan's body fell. Why was he so comfortable (prior to Queenan's thud on the ground)? Simple: Because he saw that no one was chasing him on the fire escape, no one was waiting for him at the front of the building, and 5 men had just wiped their hands clean from throwing Queenan to his death.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] odshooter22 8 years ago

I could be watching too many movies here, but I thought it was common practice with mob associations for your guys to kill at least one person on behalf of the organization to prove themselves. That they are not a cop and that they are loyal to the organization.

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